debate challenge

skepticdude
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debate challenge

I will debate any Christian or atheist who believes objective and/or absolute morals exist.

"Absolute" meaning, applicable to all people, past present and future, no exceptions.

dave

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I think u will be hard

I think u will be hard pressed to find any atheists here that believe in absolute morality. As far as the theists go, the few posts I have seen are some of the weakest arguments ever. I love the one that conflates natural laws like gravity, with morality...that one is a lol and a half. Good luck, skepticdude!

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You could always email the

You could always email the gut forom the website in this thread,since he thinks absolute morals exist.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/14167

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Absolute, no. Objective, it

Absolute, no. Objective, it depends. It is objectively true that morals exist. Different sets of morals can objectively be measured against chosen goals to see which set of morals works better. But essentially, each person has their own moral strategy, so personal morals are subjective. But they objectively exist within the person.

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skepticdude wrote:I will

skepticdude wrote:

I will debate any Christian or atheist who believes objective and/or absolute morals exist.

"Absolute" meaning, applicable to all people, past present and future, no exceptions.

dave

 

I'm just curiouse, how exactly do you explain the following reasoning:

 

If murder is wrong at time t for person s, then s ought not to murder person p at time t.

Murder is wrong at time t for person s.

Thus s ought not to murder person p at time t.

 

It seems most people reason something like the preceeding argument and it is indeed valid to reason about morality this way. Not only that, the reasoning seems to be and can be sound. But if it can be sound how is that not objective and absolute? Granted each premise has been qualified with specifying a time and place and persons, but once we qualified each premise, is that not absolute and objective?


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Okay , lets debate when is

Okay , lets debate when is love not the answer ?    

                   ( opening a can worms,  what is love? )

                                 The law -  LOVE


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drummermonkey

drummermonkey wrote:

skepticdude wrote:

I will debate any Christian or atheist who believes objective and/or absolute morals exist.

"Absolute" meaning, applicable to all people, past present and future, no exceptions.

dave

 

I'm just curiouse, how exactly do you explain the following reasoning:

 

If murder is wrong at time t for person s, then s ought not to murder person p at time t.

Murder is wrong at time t for person s.

Thus s ought not to murder person p at time t.

 

It seems most people reason something like the preceeding argument and it is indeed valid to reason about morality this way. Not only that, the reasoning seems to be and can be sound. But if it can be sound how is that not objective and absolute? Granted each premise has been qualified with specifying a time and place and persons, but once we qualified each premise, is that not absolute and objective?

This cannot apply to everyone; not everyone will be person s at time t.  In the terms specified in the OP it cannot be absolute.  Can you think of any situation in which it would be necessary to murder?  If you can, you've invalidated your logic, except at times when your conclusion is true.  If you cannot, you're being dishonest.

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drummermonkey wrote:I'm just

drummermonkey wrote:

I'm just curiouse, how exactly do you explain the following reasoning:

If murder is wrong at time t for person s, then s ought not to murder person p at time t.

Murder is wrong at time t for person s.

Thus s ought not to murder person p at time t.

Explain it? You just said the same thing twice. Two statements, one positive and one normative.

drummermonkey wrote:
It seems most people reason something like the preceeding argument and it is indeed valid to reason about morality this way.

Except that you're not really saying much. You could replace anything around "wrong" and "ought not to", and you'd just be expressing what you believe to be wrong.

drummermonkey wrote:
Not only that, the reasoning seems to be and can be sound. But if it can be sound how is that not objective and absolute? Granted each premise has been qualified with specifying a time and place and persons, but once we qualified each premise, is that not absolute and objective?

It's objectively and absolutely devoid of content. It's the equivalent of:

- Television is wrong;

- There ought not to be television.

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Thomathy wrote:drummermonkey

Thomathy wrote:

drummermonkey wrote:

skepticdude wrote:

I will debate any Christian or atheist who believes objective and/or absolute morals exist.

"Absolute" meaning, applicable to all people, past present and future, no exceptions.

dave

 

I'm just curiouse, how exactly do you explain the following reasoning:

 

If murder is wrong at time t for person s, then s ought not to murder person p at time t.

Murder is wrong at time t for person s.

Thus s ought not to murder person p at time t.

 

It seems most people reason something like the preceeding argument and it is indeed valid to reason about morality this way. Not only that, the reasoning seems to be and can be sound. But if it can be sound how is that not objective and absolute? Granted each premise has been qualified with specifying a time and place and persons, but once we qualified each premise, is that not absolute and objective?

This cannot apply to everyone; not everyone will be person s at time t.  In the terms specified in the OP it cannot be absolute.  Can you think of any situation in which it would be necessary to murder?  If you can, you've invalidated your logic, except at times when your conclusion is true.  If you cannot, you're being dishonest.

I think you missed the point of my post, if moral claims are not absolute and objective then you would have to come up with some method of explaining how we reason about morality and actions. If you don't think murder is wrong, replace it with something else, like torturing an innocent girl for pleasure. I think that's wrong, probably even objectively so, and I reason about it as if it was so. Suppose I am comfronted by a demented individual that proposes that he and I torture some girl for entertainment, I proceed to reason and act as if it was an objective truth that doing so would be wrong. He asks me well why shouldn't we? I reply "it's wrong", if you want a more hearty explanation then I could proceed by justifying this "wrongness" by pointing to the consequences of the action or perhaps that I am violating some ethical duty. I certainly hope you guys aren't disagreeing with me simply because I'm a theist, that wouldn't make my philosophical belief false. Besides, there are plenty of atheist philosophers who defend this meta-ethical position as well; Henry Sidgwick for example.

 As far as the reasoning I provided being trivial, uninformative or devoid of content lets see if this is in fact so.

Obviously if I am right about reasoning about morality the premises I provided are absolute premises and objectively true, or false; so metaphysically my thesis is not devoid of content.

But it seems possible, and one person has suggested, that the first premise could be false in some situations. One can naturally come up with cases where comitting a murder is needed yet still hold that murder is wrong, this case is an exception to the rule. So it seems that it is not uninformative, trivial and without content. The antecedent is confirmed but the consequent is not. Or the first premise is false.

I propose the following situation in response; suppose we looked down on the events in world war 2 and said that It is wrong for Adolf Hitler to murder all of the jews at the time that he did, and concluded that he ought not to have murdered jews at the time he did. Now do you think is it right in for any person at any time to argue that it is right for Adolf Hitler to murder all the jews he did at the time that he did? If you think it is not right for anyone to say such a thing, you have just made a normative absolute, and objective moral commitment.

In addition you've also made an objective moral commitment yourself already, after all you've just asked me to come up with a situation where it is necessary to murder somebody. If I had come up with a situation then this situation also has objective moral comitments; that it is necessary for S to murder P at T in world W.

But even if we think the first premise is false? How do we explain that it is false? Also, how do we explain the following reasoning?

It is wrong for everyone to torture young girls for pleasure, thus S should not have tortured P at T.

It is wrong for everyone to torture young girls for pleasure.

Thus S should not have tortured P at T.

Now we might argue that The above reasoning is trivial and uninformative, we've just stated something normative and positive, but if it's normative and positive, then how is it that these premises are not ojective and absolute? How can we separate the normative and positive from the objective and absolute?

 


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drummermonkey wrote: If

drummermonkey wrote:

 

If murder is wrong at time t for person s, then s ought not to murder person p at time t.

So is murder right at time s?  If so, doesn;t this render your argument utterly pointless?

Quote:
Murder is wrong at time t for person s.

What exactly makes murder wrong at time t?  And you still have consider other times like time s.

Quote:
Thus s ought not to murder person p at time t.

 Ought not?  Where the hell is the ought coming from? 

Quote:
It seems most people reason something like the preceeding argument and it is indeed valid to reason about morality this way. Not only that, the reasoning seems to be and can be sound.

Not really.  They usually apeal to the conscience or a moral intuition and claim that this feeling we have that some bizaare act like smashing babies with hammers is wrong is evidence that we have this moral intuition.  They never consider alternate explanations as to why we would have this feeling.

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skeptic, morality is very

skeptic, morality is very interesting topic to me, and I'm going to go out on a limb and say I am pretty well versed in the science of it.  At present, I don't see much for us to debate about, but I am curious to know what your precise definition of morality is.

 

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Hambydammit wrote:skeptic,

Hambydammit wrote:

skeptic, morality is very interesting topic to me, and I'm going to go out on a limb and say I am pretty well versed in the science of it.  At present, I don't see much for us to debate about, but I am curious to know what your precise definition of morality is.

 

He might be an error theorist and believe Moral claims lack truth value.  Or a subjectivist.  Helpful I am Sticking out tongue

" Why does God always got such wacky shit to say? . . . When was the last time you heard somebody say 'look God told me to get a muffin and a cup tea and cool out man'?" - Dov Davidoff


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illeatyourdog

illeatyourdog wrote:

drummermonkey wrote:

 

If murder is wrong at time t for person s, then s ought not to murder person p at time t.

1. So is murder right at time s?  If so, doesn;t this render your argument utterly pointless?

Quote:
Murder is wrong at time t for person s.

2. What exactly makes murder wrong at time t?  And you still have consider other times like time s.

Quote:
Thus s ought not to murder person p at time t.

 3. Ought not?  Where the hell is the ought coming from? 

Quote:
It seems most people reason something like the preceeding argument and it is indeed valid to reason about morality this way. Not only that, the reasoning seems to be and can be sound.

4. Not really.  They usually apeal to the conscience or a moral intuition and claim that this feeling we have that some bizaare act like smashing babies with hammers is wrong is evidence that we have this moral intuition.  They never consider alternate explanations as to why we would have this feeling.

With respect to point (1), I never said anything about a time "s", so I'm not sure what you mean by that. I do suggest a time "t", and you can plug in the appropriate time that your making the truth claim about. And I never said that murder was right at time s, I suggested that murder might be necessary at some time t. Thus you can't really avoid not committing a murder, murder is still wrong but you can't really say that you ought not to do it. Again your missing the point of my post, please read my second reply. I think I can get around most of the problems you have with my original post.

In reply to point (2) I can appeal to the unattractive consequences of murder at time t, or I can point out that it's violating some ethical duty, or that murder impedes on the vitom's personal autonomy. Really it doesn't matter and it's a red hearing to the point at hand. And i have considered other times, just plug in other times in place of t. Again read my second post, I get around this issue.

With respect to the third point the "ought" is coming from a moral and ethical truth, which should be followed unless one is physically incapable of doing so. Really it's not an issue to the point at hand, the point is that there is moral and ethical objective truths that we can reason and think about, follow, and know.

In response to (4) some people might appeal to conscience or "intuition", but a lot of non-realists would say that these intuitions are often and usually wrong. Really, can we say that particular acts are wrong simply because we feel it is so? Or are there acts that are wrong because we KNOW it's wrong? What you seem to be suggesting is that we rely on intuitions, and feelings on what is wrong or not, but beyond that our feelings and intuitions have no connection to an objective fact. At the same time, I'm suggesting that our intuitions about what is right are wrong and how we think about rational acts are that they are objective in some way or another. So if our intuition is wrong about that, as you suggest, they could also be wrong about what actions are wrong or not. And if our intuitions are reliable about what actions are wrong or not, as you suggest, then our intuitions could also be reliable right about moral truths being objective in some way or another.


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drummermonkey wrote:With

drummermonkey wrote:

With respect to point (1), I never said anything about a time "s", so I'm not sure what you mean by that. I do suggest a time "t", and you can plug in the appropriate time that your making the truth claim about. And I never said that murder was right at time s, I suggested that murder might be necessary at some time t. Thus you can't really avoid not committing a murder, murder is still wrong but you can't really say that you ought not to do it. Again your missing the point of my post, please read my second reply. I think I can get around most of the problems you have with my original post.

I understand the point, I just find this argument totally insufficient for what its arguing for.  This premise is too dependant on the particulars for it to be Objective.

Quote:
In reply to point (2) I can appeal to the unattractive consequences of murder at time t, or I can point out that it's violating some ethical duty, or that murder impedes on the vitom's personal autonomy. Really it doesn't matter and it's a red hearing to the point at hand. And i have considered other times, just plug in other times in place of t. Again read my second post, I get around this issue.

Actually, it matters quite a bit.  You are appealing to two opposing views on Morality: Consequentialism and Incosenquentialism.  Very few objective moralists actually argue on consequentialist grounds and not theist (although you might be an exception) does either.

Quote:
With respect to the third point the "ought" is coming from a moral and ethical truth, which should be followed unless one is physically incapable of doing so. Really it's not an issue to the point at hand, the point is that there is moral and ethical objective truths that we can reason and think about, follow, and know.

This is where answering my question for premise 2 is very important since, based on your answer, you provided no solid foundation for any ehtical or moral truth that I, or anyone should accept.  Especially since murder is ok, based on your response to 2, in certain situations, meaning the act committed has little relevance and what does have relevance are the person P and time T, which means, every action is nuetral in and of itself and its wrongness or goodness depends on who you are doing it to and at what time.  This is the furthest thing from Objective Morality. 

Quote:
What you seem to be suggesting is that we rely on intuitions, and feelings on what is wrong or not, but beyond that our feelings and intuitions have no connection to an objective fact.

Not me, I dont use such arguments for Morality nor do I argue for it.  I think our intuitions are too limited to derive any sort grand truth that applies to everyone from, aside from, we all feel that some things are wrong which is not really saying much since that is similar to saying that we all find certain things pleasurable.

" Why does God always got such wacky shit to say? . . . When was the last time you heard somebody say 'look God told me to get a muffin and a cup tea and cool out man'?" - Dov Davidoff


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illeatyourdog

illeatyourdog wrote:

drummermonkey wrote:

With respect to point (1), I never said anything about a time "s", so I'm not sure what you mean by that. I do suggest a time "t", and you can plug in the appropriate time that your making the truth claim about. And I never said that murder was right at time s, I suggested that murder might be necessary at some time t. Thus you can't really avoid not committing a murder, murder is still wrong but you can't really say that you ought not to do it. Again your missing the point of my post, please read my second reply. I think I can get around most of the problems you have with my original post.

I understand the point, I just find this argument totally insufficient for what its arguing for. This premise is too dependant on the particulars for it to be Objective.

Quote:
In reply to point (2) I can appeal to the unattractive consequences of murder at time t, or I can point out that it's violating some ethical duty, or that murder impedes on the vitom's personal autonomy. Really it doesn't matter and it's a red hearing to the point at hand. And i have considered other times, just plug in other times in place of t. Again read my second post, I get around this issue.

1. Actually, it matters quite a bit. You are appealing to two opposing views on Morality: Consequentialism and Incosenquentialism. Very few objective moralists actually argue on consequentialist grounds and not theist (although you might be an exception) does either.

Quote:
With respect to the third point the "ought" is coming from a moral and ethical truth, which should be followed unless one is physically incapable of doing so. Really it's not an issue to the point at hand, the point is that there is moral and ethical objective truths that we can reason and think about, follow, and know.

2. This is where answering my question for premise 2 is very important since, based on your answer, you provided no solid foundation for any ehtical or moral truth that I, or anyone should accept. Especially since murder is ok, based on your response to 2, in certain situations, meaning the act committed has little relevance and what does have relevance are the person P and time T, which means, every action is nuetral in and of itself and its wrongness or goodness depends on who you are doing it to and at what time. This is the furthest thing from Objective Morality.

Quote:
What you seem to be suggesting is that we rely on intuitions, and feelings on what is wrong or not, but beyond that our feelings and intuitions have no connection to an objective fact.

3. Not me, I dont use such arguments for Morality nor do I argue for it. I think our intuitions are too limited to derive any sort grand truth that applies to everyone from, aside from, we all feel that some things are wrong which is not really saying much since that is similar to saying that we all find certain things pleasurable.

Alright I'll reply to each point you made. I numbered them so you know where I am on your reply.

In response to (1), I never actually appealed to two opposing views of morality. I distinctly remember using "or" not "and". You can be a consequentialist OR a deontologist, it doesn't matter to me. Both ethical theories have views about what is wrong. And both theories seem to suggest that we can and do reason something like I had suggested.

If X is wrong, I shouldn't do X.

X is wrong.

So I shouldn't do X.

I wanted to know how you explain how we reason about morality if there is no objective moral truths. Nobody really answered my question except by stating that "it just feels right or wrong", or suggesting that "my moral intuition says this is wrong". I suggested that we reason about morality something like I had given, and the reasoning can be both valid and sound; no need invent a "moral intuition" or "moral conscience".

Now, deontologists and consequentialists might disagree but what is right or wrong but I'm not sure that any of them really want to deny that we reason and think about morality something like I had suggested. This is why it's a red herring, it doesn't matter what views you have about what is wrong or right, either one can hold that objective absolute moral truths exist.

There are two of the most famouse consequentialists that agree with me, Henry Sidgwick, and John Stuart Mill. One is a theist the other is not. So your latter claim is just false. Also, I'm not entirely convinced that consequentialists and deontologists oppose one another, Bela Szabados and Eldon Soifer recently argue that based upon Kant's stance on hypocracy he seems to be both a deontologist and a consequentialist. In addition a lot of consequentialists talk about ethical duties, they think that we ought to maximize the good, and "the good" includes moral agents following ethical duties. So, I'm not entirely convinced the two ethical views are polar opposites of one another.

Now onto (2). My question was fairly simple, how do we reason about morality, if there is no moral truths? It certainly seems that we can reason about moral truths? Can't we? We can even know what the right action is, because there is a right action? isn't there? I never said that murder was "okay", I said there are instances where murder is wrong for S at time T. And there are times when murder is "okay" for S at a different time, maybe time T2 (although, this is very rare). You suggest that the action itself is morally neutral. What REALLY matters is S and T. I certainly did not say that S and T don't matter, nor did I suggest that the action is morally neutral. In fact, I think the action does matter, for S at T. If S commits a murder at time T, and it was wrong, he shouldn't have done it. He is morally responsible for his ACTIONS! Now, I think we can look down on his action at time T, and who S was and we can actually say objectively whether his action was right or wrong. How else can we judge whether actions are right or wrong for S at T?

Alright, now (3). You suggest we cannot rely on moral intuitions or conscious. How do we judge what actions are right or wrong? Are there right and wrong actions? It seems that torturing young girls for pleasure is wrong, is it not? It simply will not due to say "we just have different feelings about what is right or wrong", and leave it at that, especially if we think there are right, wrong or rational actions. How do we create any arguments about morality if there are no objective truths regarding morality?

 

 


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In this morality debate, the

In this morality debate, the majority win .....

This thread sounds like a "Free Will" debate. Basically worthless. Lets debate Dancing!


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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:In

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

In this morality debate, the majority win .....

This thread sounds like a "Free Will" debate. Basically worthless. Lets debate Dancing!

Sigh *shakes head*


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drummermonkey, don't forget

drummermonkey, don't forget to shake your booty! 

What's that tune? Ahh, this will do!

This hot chick knows how to shake her booty !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66cbFAhiU6I


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skepticdude wrote:I will

skepticdude wrote:

I will debate any Christian or atheist who believes objective and/or absolute morals exist.

"Absolute" meaning, applicable to all people, past present and future, no exceptions.

dave

Haha. I'll bite, if only for giggles.

Since you haven't defined anything very well, I'll define everything for you:

  1. Let applicable mean "true for."
  2. Something that will be true was always going to be true.
  3. Thus things that apply in the future are applicable now, quod erat demonstrandum.
  4. Let "life" imply "that which is of greatest value to a person."
  5. Let "a cheeseburger" imply "a thing of extremely low value when compared to life"
  6. It may be true that at 1:30 PM on January 9th, 2024 a woman named Erin Skoodgdonovitch will murder a bank teller in order to steal her cheeseburger.
  7. If the event described in 3 occurs, then it was always going to happen and afterwards will always have happened.
  8. Thus, the event described in 3 will be applicable for everything in the universe since it would be true for everything in the universe.
  9. It is likely that the event described in 3 will be considered immoral at that time since life is of far greater value than a cheeseburger.
  10. Thus, the event described in 3 will always be immoral for everything in the universe because it was immoral at the time.
  11. Thus absolute morality exists because a single instance of it may definitively exist in the future at some time, quod erat faciendum.

 


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Mustard, you have a sick and

Mustard, you have a sick and twisted sense of humor.  I'm really curious to see what skeptic can do with it, though.  Nothing like hazing rituals, is there!

 

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Hambydammit wrote:Mustard,

Hambydammit wrote:

Mustard, you have a sick and twisted sense of humor.  I'm really curious to see what skeptic can do with it, though.  Nothing like hazing rituals, is there!

 

Heheh, thanks. Though, is it still a hazing if the haze-ee knows it is?


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skepticdude wrote:I will

skepticdude wrote:

I will debate any Christian or atheist who believes objective and/or absolute morals exist.

"Absolute" meaning, applicable to all people, past present and future, no exceptions.

dave


 


I have a system of moralty created at an early age, born of what is logically the most bennificial of man kind that I've referred to as my code of law.  It is strikingly similar to the Libertarian philisophy, and it does apply to all people at all times.

But your debate request is very odd.  A debate like that would depend heavily, and I mean HEAVILY on what the heck you mean by absolute morals.  If you mean a magical plain of good and evil that floats above us all that's one thing, or if you mean something that logically works to bennifit a society, that's another.

You haven't really explained or described what the heck you mean, so I image that any debate with you would be just as vauge and frusterating throughout.


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drummermonkey wrote:In

drummermonkey wrote:

In response to (1), I never actually appealed to two opposing views of morality.

You did when I asked what made X wrong.  I might be a stickler but I believe that knowing exactly why something is wrong is kinda important if we are going to start throwing "oughts" and "shoulds" around.

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I distinctly remember using "or" not "and". You can be a consequentialist OR a deontologist, it doesn't matter to me. Both ethical theories have views about what is wrong. And both theories seem to suggest that we can and do reason something like I had suggested.

Too bad they directly opposed on what makes something good.  The deontologist believes there is something inherently wrong with that action, thus, it does not matter how much good it results in, you shouldn't do it.  Whereas the Consequestionalist feels that as long as a certain act achieves the maximium good you are obligated to do it.  I fail to see how this does not matter in reagrds to answering ym question of "Why is X wrong?".

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I wanted to know how you explain how we reason about morality if there is no objective moral truths.

The same way we reason over what good food is and bad food is.  Part of it is determining if its detrimental to our health or not, the other part is pure preference.  I challenge you come up with a reasonable argument as to why brocolli tastes good.  You could emphasize its benefit in terms of health but I don;t really care becuase I hate how it tastes.  The same is true with supposed "moral" actions.  Many people perfer not to lie.  You can provide countless examples in whch it is to their benefit to lie but they still refuse to lie.  This is no logner reason.  This is pure preference.  At most, we can say "lie in moderation" but we can say that about any activity (for tyhe most poart) which means the only rule we can come up wioth that will aplly to everyone and everything is "Do things in omderation".  Of course this is the furthest thing form your "Action X is wrong at time t when done to person q".

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Also, I'm not entirely convinced that consequentialists and deontologists oppose one another, Bela Szabados and Eldon Soifer recently argue that based upon Kant's stance on hypocracy he seems to be both a deontologist and a consequentialist.

Didi they just ignore the whole noumenal world and catergorical imperative and how Kant argued that, even if a madman is trying to kill your close friend, you must not lie to the madman?  How exactly did they work consequentialism into these fundamental tenants of Kant's reason?

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Now onto (2). My question was fairly simple, how do we reason about morality, if there is no moral truths? It certainly seems that we can reason about moral truths? Can't we? We can even know what the right action is, because there is a right action? isn't there?

This seems like a restatement of a question you asked in 1) so my answer is there.

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You suggest that the action itself is morally neutral. What REALLY matters is S and T. I certainly did not say that S and T don't matter, nor did I suggest that the action is morally neutral.

Ok.  tell me if you notice a different type of "moral force with these two statements . ..

 

Statement 1: Killing Jim at 3 o'clock is wrong.

Statement 2: Killing is wrong.

I bring this up becuase in an above response you changes the second premise from "Killing person p at time t is wrong" to "killing is wrong".  Notice how there is no need to fill in gaps with specifics with the second formulation of the premise?

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It seems that torturing young girls for pleasure is wrong, is it not?

Again, if you are proposing that it is.  Explain why.  Don't make me argue against myself.  Its your job to provide support for your claims.  That being said, it depends on my mood and how annoying they are. 

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It simply will not due to say "we just have different feelings about what is right or wrong"

Ok then.  As the aforementioned preference discussion implied, we are genetically wired to like some things and not others.  I say this because it is impossible to argue why vanilla tastes better than chocolate or why black looks better on a ZO6 than does metallic green.  All I am saying is, in regards to "morality", that is, actions or dispositions we do not like, work off a similar system.  This means that, simply becuase the majority of American population loves eating hamburgers does not mean that there is some intrinsic goodness in a hamburger that, just becuase lots of people might agree that torturing little girls for fun is wrong, does not therefore mean that it is.

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How do we create any arguments about morality if there are no objective truths regarding morality?

The same way the Greeks reasoned about gravity and levity with no understanding the relationship between density and mass in regards to gravitaional pull and how Descartes reasoned about digestions aith no knowldge of chemistry.  We just talk out of our ass becuase no one really knows.

" Why does God always got such wacky shit to say? . . . When was the last time you heard somebody say 'look God told me to get a muffin and a cup tea and cool out man'?" - Dov Davidoff