Which parts of the bible are true?

Badbark
Posts: 94
Joined: 2008-01-14
User is offlineOffline
Which parts of the bible are true?

 

I’m currently reading the bible and have reached Jeremiah. I’m finding it extremely tedious but felt it was something that I should read at least once in my life. I was just wondering which parts of the bible are accepted as true by atheists? Which people really did exist? Which parts of the bible do we have overwhelming evidence to support?


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Badbark wrote: I’m

Badbark wrote:

 

I’m currently reading the bible and have reached Jeremiah. I’m finding it extremely tedious but felt it was something that I should read at least once in my life. I was just wondering which parts of the bible are accepted as true by atheists? Which people really did exist? Which parts of the bible do we have overwhelming evidence to support?

As an Ex-Christian I have studied the Bible in several translations. I also had an intense interest in History. I recommend you visit your local bookstore or library and read books on ancient Egypt, the Hittites, Assyria, the Mitanni, Babylon and others.

Short summary of Events.

There really were kingdoms of Israel and Judah. They had kings. They had squabbles between each other. Egypt, Assyria, the Hittites, and Babylon were superpowers at one time or the other. The Hyskos descendants from Canaanites ruled lower Egypt and were pushed out of the country by Pharaoh Ahmrose. No other large group of supposed Asiatics are shown to have been in Egypt. Egypt, the Hittites, and Assyria dominated Palestine at the supposed time of Moses and Joshua. No proof of Israelites invading the country rather they were descended as was everyone else from the wandering nomads. Jericho existed as a small city without walls at the time. Ai was already ruins when Joshua supposedly destroyed it.  David probably existed but had a very small kingdom and population. He was mentioned in inscriptions such as the Tel Dan and the Mesha Steele. Ahab was a very great king of Israel who defended his country from invasion by the Assyrians. Most likely Ahab and the other Omride kings are responsible for the greatness found in archaeological ruins. Babylon was invaded by the Persians and was not quite the bloodbath described. Israelites were relocated by Assyria though not all of them maybe 20%. Judah was invaded by Assyria and Babylon. Again many were relocated but only a percentage of the population. Jeremiah actually helps to support this.

Greeks and Persians fought. Alexander conquered the Persians. Descendants of his commanders ruled Egypt and Palestine. Eventually Rome becomes a power and Pompey and Caesar are involved. Palestine is part of the Roman Empire. Jews rebel. Jerusalem is razed to the ground. Hadrian orders a new city built in Jerusalem. Jews rebel under Kosiba who thinks he is the Star found in Numbers. Jews are exterminated.

As to the narratives in the Bible generally it is fill for the writer. So many errors to even mention. Errors of prophecy, technology, knowledge, history and science are numerous.

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


Rook_Hawkins
RRS CO-FOUNDER
Rook_Hawkins's picture
Posts: 1322
Joined: 2006-02-11
User is offlineOffline
Nothing in the Bible can be

Nothing in the Bible can be accepted as historical.  We do not have evidence for very much, and what evidence we do have does not support the Biblical account.  I suggest you read the introduction to my book for some bibliographical information, and skim through my blog for additional articles on this subject.

Rook's Blog Here

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
In a nutshell, the bible

In a nutshell, the bible should be read like one of Homer's epics.  There are real names and places from time to time, but it is a work of fiction.

Even if some of the authors thought they were writing history, their accounts are not reliable unless they are backed up by corroborating evidence.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


Rook_Hawkins
RRS CO-FOUNDER
Rook_Hawkins's picture
Posts: 1322
Joined: 2006-02-11
User is offlineOffline
To add to Hamby, biblical

To add to Hamby, biblical authors seldom thought they were writing history, especially when they were creating plot and utilizing archetypes and eponymous names. 

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)


ronin-dog
Scientist
ronin-dog's picture
Posts: 419
Joined: 2007-10-18
User is offlineOffline
None of it. Even if a story

None of it. Even if a story is written in a historical setting, it is still fiction.


Badbark
Posts: 94
Joined: 2008-01-14
User is offlineOffline
 Thanks for all the

 

Thanks for all the answers. Even less than I expected then!


BrainFromArous
BrainFromArous's picture
Posts: 98
Joined: 2008-04-24
User is offlineOffline
You should apply that same

You should apply that same standard of scrutiny to the Bible that you would to, say, the Odyssey.

Rook's point is key: The people who wrote the Bible were not historians, didn't think of themselves that way and didn't intend their stories to be read that way. With much of it, I would go so far as to say that whatever historical accuracy does exist is incidental.

That said, there were apparently lizard men in the Garden of Eden; like the Sleestak in Land of the Lost.

That's pretty cool.

Boards don't hit back. (Bruce Lee)


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13659
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is onlineOnline
Rook_Hawkins wrote:To add to

Rook_Hawkins wrote:

To add to Hamby, biblical authors seldom thought they were writing history, especially when they were creating plot and utilizing archetypes and eponymous names. 

"plot" ....the bible has a "plot"?

Here it is in three parts.

Part 1. Be a good Hebrew and no one gets hurt

Part 2. Thats not working. I know, I'll kill myself for myself to warn people to worship me or burn in hell.

Part 3. If I can't have you no one can!

That is not a plot, that is rantings of an abusive spouse.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Plots

There can be found several plots depending on perspective.

Hebrew ver 1 = Parables/stories about how the world got here. Parables/stories what happened in our history. We are chosen by our god who is better than all others. Prophecies made for a great leader to unite the world serving the one god under our leadership.

Mythology and wishful thinking.

Hebrew ver 2 = How we got here. Our invisible god is better than yours. We have been promised a great leader that god  will send to kill all who oppose. He will rule the world through us.

This is otherwise known as mythology and a response to repression.

Catholic = Stories of how the world got here in figurative language. (Derived from ver 1 & 2) Stories of Jewish history and the god's relationship shown figuratively. A great leader is promised who will save them. The Jews don't see the savior as 'the one'. He dies for all to placate the god-himself. He will come back. The end is figuratively shown, or not.

Mythology, wishful thinking, derived fantasy and creative interpretation. This allows for evolution to be the way god did it, a view that Hell isn't a real place, and a method to be right no matter what was previously claimed.

Christian Fundie = How the Jews got here. How the Jews were evil. The Jews are punished.  A savior is promised. The savior is sent. He is a chunk of the god. The Jews reject him/kill him. All of the world is saved or damned. The god goes home but promises to return with payback.

This is derived fantasy based on  mythology and delusional rejection of reality.

Islam = How others got here. How we got here. How the Jews rejected us. Our invisible god is the one. He will kill all that reject his way.

This is mythology, derived fantasy with more mythology and fantasy mixed in later.

There are many sub plots in part 1 OT and part 2 NT of these stories/fables/myths. There are several versions of part1 OT. All claim their part 1 OT is the correct story/fable/myth.

Basically myths and fantasies were written. New writers expanded the scope of the fantasies. Even more new writers expanded the expansion. Interpretations were made of the writings and the expanded writings and the expanded expanded writings of the fantasy. New writers expand the interpretation of the multilayer expansion of the fantasies and myths.

There are of course thousands of other versions of interpretation of the perceived plot(s) depending on the group(s) underlying goal(s). There is no truth to be found here.

Result = A mess

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


Boon Docks
Posts: 415
Joined: 2007-03-04
User is offlineOffline
Truth

The only part of the king james version that might be true would the page number in the upper corner.  Anything more than that would be pushing your luck.


mrjonno
Posts: 726
Joined: 2007-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Don't listen to them I've

Don't listen to them I've seen the Omen (the original) and I know its all true and his little brat is very very scary.

 

Got a feeling the remake was a bit of an atheist conspiracy due to it being err crap


thingy
SuperfanGold Member
thingy's picture
Posts: 1022
Joined: 2007-02-07
User is offlineOffline
mrjonno wrote:Don't listen

mrjonno wrote:

Don't listen to them I've seen the Omen (the original) and I know its all true and his little brat is very very scary.

 

Got a feeling the remake was a bit of an atheist conspiracy due to it being err crap

They're talking about the christian bible, not the pastafarian one.

Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
Censored and blacked out for internet access in ANZ!
AU: http://nocleanfeed.com/ | NZ: http://nzblackout.org/


Archbishop_Of_C...
Troll
Posts: 12
Joined: 2008-04-16
User is offlineOffline
Evvery Part of the bible is

Evvery Part of the bible is true and you should know that without question , it can never be disproven or doubted , the only people that try believe in god and are afraid to admit it , so say i the mighty archbishop!


Boon Docks
Posts: 415
Joined: 2007-03-04
User is offlineOffline
Archie

Slow down there turbo, your looking scary.


Jeffrick
High Level DonorRational VIP!SuperfanGold Member
Jeffrick's picture
Posts: 2397
Joined: 2008-03-25
User is offlineOffline
A-of-C

Archbishop_Of_Canterbury wrote:

Evvery Part of the bible is true and you should know that without question , it can never be disproven or doubted , the only people that try believe in god and are afraid to admit it , so say i the mighty archbishop!

   You are wrong.

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?


spumoni
Theist
spumoni's picture
Posts: 108
Joined: 2007-01-31
User is offlineOffline
Badbark wrote: I’m

Badbark wrote:

 

I’m currently reading the bible and have reached Jeremiah. I’m finding it extremely tedious but felt it was something that I should read at least once in my life. I was just wondering which parts of the bible are accepted as true by atheists? Which people really did exist? Which parts of the bible do we have overwhelming evidence to support?

 

I'd recommend On the Reliability of the Old Testament by Kitchen to dispense with the non-sense of most atheist arguments on this website concerning the Old Testament.  I would recommend The Historical Reliability of the Gospels for the New Testament.  Most of the evidence presented in these two works contravenes most fallacious claims of the lack of historicity of the Bible claimed on this site. 


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13659
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is onlineOnline
The bible is true and false

The bible is true and false at the same time(not because it is true) but because there is no way to replicate or falsify them. Holy books, not just Christianity are not based on replication and falsification, but the false belief that because I belong to a club, and because that club feeds me, the fictional being that feeds us must be real. Egyptians once believed the sun was a thinking entity that feed them.

A naked assertion survives on the food of ignorance. Only the light of skepticism and quality control will determine the truth.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
spumoni wrote:  I'd

spumoni wrote:

 

 

I'd recommend On the Reliability of the Old Testament by Kitchen to dispense with the non-sense of most atheist arguments on this website concerning the Old Testament.  I would recommend The Historical Reliability of the Gospels for the New Testament.  Most of the evidence presented in these two works contravenes most fallacious claims of the lack of historicity of the Bible claimed on this site. 

As Kitchen didn't have a good explanation for my question and neither did any of my teachers in years of Christian education I'll ask you. Where exactly is the trash from the 40 years of desert wandering from 600,000 men plus families and farm animals? 

Funny the Egyptian outposts (guards and soldiers on the borders) left trash, and even nomadic herders but not this mass of people and animals. Please explain.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


Cali_Athiest2
Cali_Athiest2's picture
Posts: 440
Joined: 2008-02-07
User is offlineOffline
pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

spumoni wrote:

 

 

I'd recommend On the Reliability of the Old Testament by Kitchen to dispense with the non-sense of most atheist arguments on this website concerning the Old Testament.  I would recommend The Historical Reliability of the Gospels for the New Testament.  Most of the evidence presented in these two works contravenes most fallacious claims of the lack of historicity of the Bible claimed on this site. 

As Kitchen didn't have a good explanation for my question and neither did any of my teachers in years of Christian education I'll ask you. Where exactly is the trash from the 40 years of desert wandering from 600,000 men plus families and farm animals? 

Funny the Egyptian outposts (guards and soldiers on the borders) left trash, and even nomadic herders but not this mass of people and animals. Please explain.

Simple answer "god took care of it". After all didn't god provide everything the hebrews needed to survive? Who knows maybe it took out the trash too HAHAHA. Remember this is the same god that thought it would be nice to see the galaxies billions of light years away when everything was created only 6500 years ago. See god thinks of everything.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Cali_Athiest2

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

spumoni wrote:

 

 

I'd recommend On the Reliability of the Old Testament by Kitchen to dispense with the non-sense of most atheist arguments on this website concerning the Old Testament.  I would recommend The Historical Reliability of the Gospels for the New Testament.  Most of the evidence presented in these two works contravenes most fallacious claims of the lack of historicity of the Bible claimed on this site. 

As Kitchen didn't have a good explanation for my question and neither did any of my teachers in years of Christian education I'll ask you. Where exactly is the trash from the 40 years of desert wandering from 600,000 men plus families and farm animals? 

Funny the Egyptian outposts (guards and soldiers on the borders) left trash, and even nomadic herders but not this mass of people and animals. Please explain.

Simple answer "god took care of it". After all didn't god provide everything the hebrews needed to survive? Who knows maybe it took out the trash too HAHAHA. Remember this is the same god that thought it would be nice to see the galaxies billions of light years away when everything was created only 6500 years ago. See god thinks of everything.

When my teacher told me that I asked why? I was peristent enough that I pissed him off. This got me stood in the corner in front of the class for being a pain in the ass until lunch or recess, I forget which.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13659
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is onlineOnline
Badbark wrote: I’m

Badbark wrote:

 

I’m currently reading the bible and have reached Jeremiah. I’m finding it extremely tedious but felt it was something that I should read at least once in my life. I was just wondering which parts of the bible are accepted as true by atheists? Which people really did exist? Which parts of the bible do we have overwhelming evidence to support?

Doesn't matter to me at all. You see Superman in movies flying around New York City. But because New York City is real you don't believe that humans can actually fly like that.

That would be like saying "George Washington can fart a Lamborginni out of his ass because he was a real historical figure".

It is a morally reprehensable fairy tale about an invisable fictional tyrant who throws a tantrum when he arranges his borg drones and blames them for what he started in the first place.

It is full of rape, incest, slavery, genocide and emotional blackmail. So you find some real places or real people, it still doesnt make magic real or make the book itself a good moral guide.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Badbark
Posts: 94
Joined: 2008-01-14
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Badbark

Brian37 wrote:

Badbark wrote:

 

I’m currently reading the bible and have reached Jeremiah. I’m finding it extremely tedious but felt it was something that I should read at least once in my life. I was just wondering which parts of the bible are accepted as true by atheists? Which people really did exist? Which parts of the bible do we have overwhelming evidence to support?

Doesn't matter to me at all. You see Superman in movies flying around New York City. But because New York City is real you don't believe that humans can actually fly like that.

That would be like saying "George Washington can fart a Lamborginni out of his ass because he was a real historical figure".

It is a morally reprehensable fairy tale about an invisable fictional tyrant who throws a tantrum when he arranges his borg drones and blames them for what he started in the first place.

It is full of rape, incest, slavery, genocide and emotional blackmail. So you find some real places or real people, it still doesnt make magic real or make the book itself a good moral guide.

If think you misunderstand the reason for my initial question. I’m an atheist and know that the bible is a cross between a fairy tale and a horror story.

I know that most of the stories and characters are fictional. Most Christians believe the bible is true and work backwards looking for evidence to support it claims and disregarded evidence that doesn’t. This is dishonest. I just wanted to hear the opinions of atheist biblical scholars on which stories/characters do have some supporting evidence.

I’ve since done my own investigations and found evidence that plenty of New Testament characters having existed and a few from the Old. Of course, this doesn’t mean that any stories attributed to them are true. I would like to find out if there is a grain of truth in any stories.


hazindu
Superfan
hazindu's picture
Posts: 219
Joined: 2008-04-02
User is offlineOffline
Badbark wrote:I’ve

Badbark wrote:

I’ve since done my own investigations and found evidence that plenty of New Testament characters having existed and a few from the Old. Of course, this doesn’t mean that any stories attributed to them are true. I would like to find out if there is a grain of truth in any stories.

I think if I had time and enough interest, with my limited knowledge I could make a case for Saul and Pilate, but I'm quite curious as to which Hebrew Bible character\s you think is\are real and why.


 

"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)

If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?


hazindu
Superfan
hazindu's picture
Posts: 219
Joined: 2008-04-02
User is offlineOffline
Archbishop_Of_Canterbury

Archbishop_Of_Canterbury wrote:

Evvery Part of the bible is true and you should know that without question

Not everyone is so happy to wallow in ignorance.
Quote:
, it can never be disproven or doubted ,
None of the bible has been proven, much of it has been disproven, and I doubt all of it.
Quote:
the only people that try believe in god and are afraid to admit it ,
I don't try to doubt, I do doubt it, and if I believed in god, I'd say so.
Quote:
so say i the mighty archbishop!
Doh! you got me.  You're an atheist playing a trick on us.

"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)

If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?


RespectfulButBe...
Posts: 48
Joined: 2009-02-22
User is offlineOffline
pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:
Where exactly is the trash from the 40 years of desert wandering from 600,000 men plus families and farm animals?
Have you ever been to the Sinai and the Negev?  There's a lot of ground to cover there.  Most archaeological sites are areas with buildings (cities, towns, etc.) which are easy to identify because they either are below modern cities, have large exposed ruins, or are in mounds.  It's a lot harder to find a nomadic campsite.  But if you can point me to an excavation of one in the Near East, I'd be glad to be enlightened on this subject.

spumoni wrote:
Simple answer "god took care of it". After all didn't god provide everything the hebrews needed to survive? Who knows maybe it took out the trash too HAHAHA.
That HAHAHA is kind of scaring me.  You might want to check with your doctor before going off the medication.

Quote:
Remember this is the same god that thought it would be nice to see the galaxies billions of light years away when everything was created only 6500 years ago. See god thinks of everything.
Please do not lie about what the Bible says.  The Bible does NOT say that everything was created 6,500 years ago, or anything like it, and if you think otherwise, you are the victim of Catholic propeganda.  Here is what the Bible ACTUALLY says (first 5 verses of Genesis 1, King James Version):

 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

 4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

So God created Heaven and the Earth in the beginning.  Did that happen on the first day?  No, since the first day didn't happen until God created light, which came after the beginning.  So God created Heaven and the Earth before the first day.  How long before the first day?  There's no way to us to tell, because God did not tell Moses.  Could it have been 14 billion years ago?  There's nothing in the Bible that would either support or contradict that contention.

Once an athiest, now a believer, and always ready to debate issues respectfully.


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
RespectfulButBelieving

RespectfulButBelieving wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:
Where exactly is the trash from the 40 years of desert wandering from 600,000 men plus families and farm animals?
Have you ever been to the Sinai and the Negev?  There's a lot of ground to cover there.  Most archaeological sites are areas with buildings (cities, towns, etc.) which are easy to identify because they either are below modern cities, have large exposed ruins, or are in mounds.  It's a lot harder to find a nomadic campsite.  But if you can point me to an excavation of one in the Near East, I'd be glad to be enlightened on this subject.

No, I grew up in the desert southwest of the US and moved to Florida when I was 40. I would love to go to the Sinai and Iraq but there's far too much warfare for my taste. I have found arrowheads in Colorado, Kansas, and New Mexico. I have found fossils in several locations in Colorado such as leaves and seashells in SE Colorado. 

As to the Exodus, first I refer you to Finkelstein's book, The Bible Unearthed, pp48-71. See specifically p 63. He discredits the idea of the Exodus for several reasons. 1. Modern archeology is capable of tracing even meager pastoral nomads all over the world. He specifically mentions the Sinai has disclosed pastoral evidence for the 3rd millennium. 2. Numbers 33 and 34 claim the Israelites were in Kadesh-barnea for 38 of the 40 years. He says this location is clear from the description of the southern border of Israel in Numbers 34. It is identified with the oasis of Ein el-Quideirat in eastern Sinai. There they found a small mound of one of many Egyptian forts found in the desert. 

Next see books by Charles Freeman,  Egypt, Greece & Rome and Ian Shaw, Ancient Egypt. There you will find mention of the Egyptian forts which were small enclosures and sometimes just tents.

Archeology and the Bible - See Here.

On line see  Egyptian forts in Sinai and Gaza:

http://touregypt.net/teblog/egyptologynews/?p=2606

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/688/eg10.htm

Ancient Nomads

This one is about nomadic people from the 4th millennium:

http://www.centre4sinai.com.eg/nawamis.htm

I read in your posts that you are some sort of scientist or physicist that is now a professor. You should be very aware of the procedures. No evidence means it is conjecture or a theory. You can obviously have faith such stories are true but that is opposite to the methods you have been taught as a scientist where you must prove by evidence. If not, don't have your students do labs anymore.

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13659
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is onlineOnline
Badbark wrote: I’m

Badbark wrote:

 

I’m currently reading the bible and have reached Jeremiah. I’m finding it extremely tedious but felt it was something that I should read at least once in my life. I was just wondering which parts of the bible are accepted as true by atheists? Which people really did exist? Which parts of the bible do we have overwhelming evidence to support?

You know that New York City exists. You know that George Washington existed. But if someone claimed that a man in a leotard could magically fly around New York city, how much credibility should you give that claim?

If someone claimed that George Washington farted a Lamborghini out of his ass, would you believe it?

The NT was written after the "supposed claim", of the centeral super hero. The writers were simply fans of the new cult and read the OT to make their superstitions match the older ones. Peppering real places and real beings into a myth doesnt make magic real, it merely means the writers adapted and out competed the older myth.

Otherwise the original Peter Pan book which mentions London would mean that faries exist.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


RespectfulButBe...
Posts: 48
Joined: 2009-02-22
User is offlineOffline
pauljohntheskeptic wrote:I

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:
I have found arrowheads in Colorado, Kansas, and New Mexico. I have found fossils in several locations in Colorado such as leaves and seashells in SE Colorado.
That certainly shows that you have some relevant interests, so hopefully we can have a good discussion of the evidence.

Quote:
As to the Exodus, first I refer you to Finkelstein's book, The Bible Unearthed, pp48-71. See specifically p 63. He discredits the idea of the Exodus for several reasons. 1. Modern archeology is capable of tracing even meager pastoral nomads all over the world. He specifically mentions the Sinai has disclosed pastoral evidence for the 3rd millennium.
I'm not real interested in a book, because there are billions of books on the Bible, from Christian and non-Christian sources, and I've found every one of them that I've read to be utter horsecrap.  Nevertheless, I do take Finkelstein's hypothesis seriously.  Would you please post the citations from his book for the original papers showing the archaeological evidence of pastoral nomads?  Then we can both read the original sources and discuss this when we have the evidence in hand.

Quote:
2. Numbers 33 and 34 claim the Israelites were in Kadesh-barnea for 38 of the 40 years.
If Finkelstein says that, he's a liar.  Would you please read Numbers 33 and 34 for yourself and point me to the verses where it says the Israelites were in any single place for 38 years, or anything like that.

Quote:
Next see books by Charles Freeman,  Egypt, Greece & Rome and Ian Shaw, Ancient Egypt. There you will find mention of the Egyptian forts which were small enclosures and sometimes just tents.
Again, I'm not interested in the books, but, if you post their citations, I will gladly read the papers cited in those books written by the archaeologists who made the discoveries, then we can have an intelligent discussion of the archaeological record.

Quote:
Archeology and the Bible - See Here.
Come on, that's a magazine article that doesn't cite any sources.  I am happy discussing evidence, not unsubstantiated opinion.

Quote:
On line see
None of those cite any sources.

Quote:
I read in your posts that you are some sort of scientist or physicist that is now a professor. You should be very aware of the procedures. No evidence means it is conjecture or a theory. You can obviously have faith such stories are true but that is opposite to the methods you have been taught as a scientist where you must prove by evidence. If not, don't have your students do labs anymore.
The procedures in science involve citing the original sources, not books, magazine articles, and toursit information websites.  Please don't take that as a personal attack, I very much appreciate your willingness to address the actual evidence, unlike most of the people in here who make assertions but don't bother trying to back them up.

As for the burden of proof, I agree that the absence of evidence is not evidence for a hypothesis, but you have yet to establish that there's a reason to expect that we would have found the evidence if it were in the desert.  For example, the Large Hadron Collider was built with the primary purpose of finding the Higgs boson.  For theoretical reasons, most physicists, including me, think that the Higgs boson exists.  We don't consider the fact that nobody has demonstrated that it exists yet as evidence that it is wrong, because we never had the tools.  If LHC doesn't find it (and we probably need one more generation of particle acclerators if LHC fails), that would make me question the hypothesis.  I am willing to consider your view that, in the case of the Israelites, we should have found the evidence by now if it were actually there if backed up by the evidence.

Once an athiest, now a believer, and always ready to debate issues respectfully.


Arizona Mildman (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
The unlimited greed that led to our financial crisis.

 I couldn't agree more. The fact that most Christians don't know what the bible actually says, the fact that most of them quote things that, on investigation, can't be found, since it is a "belief" not  a fact that they did or said something. What most of them use is called a One concept fallacy.  The fact that most of them use the bible to validate what is in the bible, as if having been written into a book that has been revised over 35 times since it's original conception, makes me believe that it would have to be further researched. When the people of a certain group or tribe believed the earth was flat, we need to take into account that they weren't finding answers, they were passing on what the village wise man told someone. Before there was science there was no other explanation. The same people who swear up and down that the Christian God does exist because the bible says so, are using a book to verify their beliefs, but will not believe what a modern science book says.


eccles
eccles's picture
Posts: 12
Joined: 2007-09-19
User is offlineOffline
THe Worst Book of Fiction Ever Written

Badbark wrote:

 

I’m currently reading the bible and have reached Jeremiah. I’m finding it extremely tedious but felt it was something that I should read at least once in my life. I was just wondering which parts of the bible are accepted as true by atheists? Which people really did exist? Which parts of the bible do we have overwhelming evidence to support?

You got a lot further than I did. I am a bedraggled refugee from the "Holy" Roman Catholic Church, now a proud Atheist. I suffered 12 years at a Jesuit School. I put up  with Christianity for 30 years for the sake of my parents, then giot pissed off with it and announced my Atheism. The Roman Catholic Church avoids teaching the Old Testament, so I had read only what I was forced to: Genesis and Exodus. As I now have access to the Internet and reliable sources of information about the true origins of Judeo Christianity, my Atheism was stregthened. I decided to get a NIV Study Bible because it did have many cross-references and critical discussions about mis-translations and mis-interpretations. However they did nothing to debunk Christianity.

I got as far as Kings II. I got so sick of all the accounts of Genocide and Debauchery that I knew were not true, I TORE UP that Bible . The passage I find the most terrible is Numbers Chapter 31 Verses 17-18. The Bible is the worst book of fiction ever written. Itr should be classified Horror/Fiction, ont suitable for under 18.

Eccles


cjbfromda513
Posts: 1
Joined: 2010-09-15
User is offlineOffline
It is all true

Hi My name is Chris I am totally living for Christ because He died for me, and saved me from a life of heroin addiction and alcoholism. I submitted to Him and He has put a passion, a fire for Him inside me. Actually sir the whole Bible is true. It is the Infalable, unchangeable, Holy word of the only true God. It's funny that people who have never read the whole thing, or actually read the scripture in the context that it was written, and still say that it's fake and blaspheme the Lord. I love everyone here and I care about you, and I pray that God will soften your hearts so that you will allow Him to save you and give you the life you were created for. Everyone here knows that when you deny God or talk bad about Him, something inside you gets uneasy. If you are honest with yourself you know what I'm talking about. I invite you to reply to this, but please don't get nasty with me. Thanx Guys!


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
cjbfromda513 wrote:Hi My

cjbfromda513 wrote:

Hi My name is Chris I am totally living for Christ because He died for me, and saved me from a life of heroin addiction and alcoholism. I submitted to Him and He has put a passion, a fire for Him inside me. Actually sir the whole Bible is true. It is the Infalable, unchangeable, Holy word of the only true God. It's funny that people who have never read the whole thing, or actually read the scripture in the context that it was written, and still say that it's fake and blaspheme the Lord. I love everyone here and I care about you, and I pray that God will soften your hearts so that you will allow Him to save you and give you the life you were created for. Everyone here knows that when you deny God or talk bad about Him, something inside you gets uneasy. If you are honest with yourself you know what I'm talking about. I invite you to reply to this, but please don't get nasty with me. Thanx Guys!

It's also funny how some people assume that others have never read the Bible because those others didn't come to the same conclusions.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


rebecca.williamson
atheist
Posts: 459
Joined: 2010-08-09
User is offlineOffline
Possibly the people, the

Possibly the people (some of which were probably made up), the trees (except the one with the forbidden fruit), animals, dirt, grass, sky, you know, the material things.

If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5102
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
The part where Thomas doubted

 

that Jesus had risen from the dead was definitely true. And if not true, it was at least realistic.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Ken G.
Bronze Member
Posts: 1352
Joined: 2008-03-20
User is offlineOffline
pauljohntheskeptic wrote:Ahab was a very great king of Israel

      King Ahab and his murderous wife Jezebel were very bad for Israel,when Elijah was brought to the king he was asked "why do you hate Israel " Elijah did not hate Israel,he disliked the King and Queen of Israel,he thought that they were bad for Israel,they were power happy and wanted the south of Israel for their kingdom.And to this day Jewish people leave a seat open for Elijah at passover . Elijah criticized King Ahab,so then in the kings mind he must hate Israel .

Signature ? How ?


JesusNEVERexisted
Superfan
JesusNEVERexisted's picture
Posts: 693
Joined: 2010-01-03
User is offlineOffline
Rook_Hawkins wrote:Nothing

Rook_Hawkins wrote:

Nothing in the Bible can be accepted as historical.  We do not have evidence for very much, and what evidence we do have does not support the Biblical account.  I suggest you read the introduction to my book for some bibliographical information, and skim through my blog for additional articles on this subject.

Rook's Blog Here

THANK YOU ROOK!!

There is ZERO historical evidence than ANY character in the bible EVEN ever existed!! Not a single person during the reigns of the Roman Emperors Augustus and Tiberius or anyone all the way up to 200  AD ever said Jesus, Moses, Mary, David and Goliath, the apostles, etc. even existed!!

Christians are MEGA OWNED!!! HOW can that religion even exist anymore?? We KNOW it's 99% fiction!!

 

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4562
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is onlineOnline
The one factual page of the

The one factual page of the bible http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrbill/3355282096/ If you want my advice, read that and skip the rest. If you really want to read an old story read the Illiad and the Odessey or Beowulf. Those stories are a lot better and more realistic.

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


NoMoreCrazyPeople
atheistSuperfan
NoMoreCrazyPeople's picture
Posts: 969
Joined: 2009-10-14
User is offlineOffline
Badbark wrote: I’m

Badbark wrote:

 

I’m currently reading the bible and have reached Jeremiah.

Wait, you made it past Deuteronomy without getting sick?  What do think of it so far?  How do you feel about all the blood, gore, violence, a high 113 on a scale of 1-10 bat shit crazyness?  Are you enjoying it? 


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13659
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is onlineOnline
Badbark wrote: I’m

Badbark wrote:

 

I’m currently reading the bible and have reached Jeremiah. I’m finding it extremely tedious but felt it was something that I should read at least once in my life. I was just wondering which parts of the bible are accepted as true by atheists? Which people really did exist? Which parts of the bible do we have overwhelming evidence to support?

I warn against falling for "history" arguments.

"This person existed or that place existed" Is a distraction away from the fantastic claims made of magic and "poof" logic, the believer ultimately wants you to swallow. My response is, so what? You can successfully argue that some people may have existed but after the fact. You could also argue that other people/places never existed. But that misses the point that magic does not exist.

We know that George Washington existed, but no sane person in their right mind goes around claiming that he could fart a real full sized Lamborghini out of his ass.

We know that the City of New York exists, but because we see Superman flying around that REAL city, no sane person thinks Superman is real.

I don't care if they can prove someone existed, my point would be "so what"? How does that prove God tapped Barry White on the shoulder and told him to play some music for Marry so he could give Mary some magical invisible hot beef injection without donating a second set of DNA.

The OT was written before the NT. The authors didn't write a word until way after the alleged death of the alleged zombie god Jesus. The authors of the NT had access to the writings of the OT which means they wrote the new stuff to retrofit to the old stuff. Peppering it with real people and real places doesn't make fiction real or magic real.

The most accurate thing you could asses is that a splinter group from the Jews wanted to make a new sect and wanted to usher in the savior. The reason Christianity became successful was because of marketing, not a real god.

The bible makes fantastic claims about how humanity started, how the earth formed. It also makes claims about magical births and magical deaths. It is full of justification of slavery, sexism and genocide. And the end of the book is all about a giant bloodbath to glorify one being. Peppering a book with allegedly real people or real places does not make magic real, nor does it justify scientific absurdity or moral bankruptcy.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


JesusNEVERexisted
Superfan
JesusNEVERexisted's picture
Posts: 693
Joined: 2010-01-03
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote:The one

Beyond Saving wrote:

The one factual page of the bible http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrbill/3355282096/ If you want my advice, read that and skip the rest. If you really want to read an old story read the Illiad and the Odessey or Beowulf. Those stories are a lot better and more realistic.

 

Sorry, you're wrong. It says "Holy" in that pic!

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com


JesusNEVERexisted
Superfan
JesusNEVERexisted's picture
Posts: 693
Joined: 2010-01-03
User is offlineOffline
Brian37, you make an

Brian37, you make an EXCELLENT point that Christians keep forgetting or chose to ignore. The reason why most people think Jesus existed is NOT because of any evidence of Jesus but it's MARKETING!!

MARKETING!! MARKETING!! MARKETING!!

Christianity was a religion spready by FORCE i.e. the SWORD so they did NOT give people a choice as to whether to believe it or not since you HAD to!! Even if it they told you Bugs Bunny was real and said Bugs Bunny rose from the dead they'd believe it because you were FORCED to!

In more recent times the church simply BRIBES people to believe in fairy tales! Church missionary groups have well over a BILLION dollars to convert people to comic book fairy tales!!!

If you give me a billion dollars I'll go live in a damn church if you want me to!!

P.S. I typed the words "Marketing!!" with a larger and different font but it did not display. Why not??

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com