Us against Them?

Loc
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Us against Them?

When I was a christian,I had a pretty simplistic worldview. There was us,and them. The children of god, and the world. No inbetween. You were either fully for god or against him.

So as an atheist,I've noticed I tend to view things in a similiar manner. I've been talking to two friends lately, neither of whom are believers(well not completley sure what the one believes) but they aren't atheist. You know, the "I'm not really sure' or 'I'm not religious type.' I have a tendency to want to label them theist in my mind,though they aren't really.But they won't call themsleves atheist..

Mabye I've just always had a black and white mindset.

So do you ever find yourself with a 'us and them' mindset? Is it neccesarily a bad thing? I'm always reminded of something..

Anakin Skywalker:'You are either with me or against me!'

Obi-Wan: "Only the Sith deal in absolutes!'

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


Tilberian
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It is difficult to avoid an

It is difficult to avoid an us/them mentality sometimes, but I think we have to try if for no other reason than that it is not productive. As you have noted, the whole faith thing exists along a continuum from deist to fundamentalist, so certainly all theists cannot be held in the same category. I've talked to some anarchic atheists that I wouldn't want at my kid's birthday party and some moderate priests that are highly worth listening to. So for the purposes of deciding who you are going to associate with or respect, I don't think the atheist/theist distinction should carry all that much weight.

Remember, we still don't know whether faith is a self-replicating mind virus that infects the brains of those who lack resistance in much the same way as a virus infects other organs. If this is indeed the case (and we need research to determine if it is), then holding people who have faith in contempt would be much the same as having those same attitudes toward cancer victims.

Also recall that many people have rational grounds for holding faith even though their faith itself cannot be justified rationally. Their church is an important part of their life, worship gives them comfort, they get great networking etc etc. They are like a buddy who is in love with a woman that you know is wrong for him. Yes, he is getting laid, and that is a rational goal, but why can't he find a better way to do it?  Ultimately, I think we have to give way to the idea that people are just different and c'est la vie.

Now, when they start to push their shit in the public square, that is another matter...

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Loc wrote:So do you ever

Loc wrote:

So do you ever find yourself with a 'us and them' mindset? Is it neccesarily a bad thing? I'm always reminded of something..

Anakin Skywalker:'You are either with me or against me!'

Obi-Wan: "Only the Sith deal in absolutes!'

Well, I'm still recovering Christian as well, so I'm still trying to decide if I want to be part of any so called "atheist" community. Maybe what's driving me now to be so anti-religious is both understanding now how destructive religion is to people and anger at myself for falling for the BullShit instead of resisting it.

I think I've finally gone full circle. When one is born into this world, we have have no superstitions. Our minds just want to learn and understand as much as we can. I just wanted to play, to learn and to enjoy the simple pleasures of life. I didn't want to get caught up in the superstitions, worries, guilts, fears and delusions of others. Now I'm back where I started, "born again" you might say.

So, 'You are either with me or against me!' is bullshit dogma from people that want to control you. Shakespeare said it best:

"To thine own self be true."

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


HeyZeusCreaseToe
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Nice SW ref...umm, yeah to a

Nice SW ref...umm, yeah to a point, I think it depends on context and what is being discussed. If someone is saying, we want to give these churches tax-free benefits and then even more tax money to do "the lord's work" under the guise of an outreach program...us vs them. If you are talking about sharing a human experience with friends and family who are religious, then you have to shift the goalposts and adopt a more inclusive attitude, unless they try to force shit down your throat, in which case, rationally pointing out the inadequacies and negative consequences of their beliefs is warranted.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda


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Quote:Anakin Skywalker:'You

Quote:
Anakin Skywalker:'You are either with me or against me!'

Obi-Wan: "Only the Sith deal in absolutes!'

I always found this a trite line (among many) in the film. So, Obi Wan, *only* the Sith deal in absolutes? So I guess that makes you a Sith then, eh?

Loc wrote:
Mabye I've just always had a black and white mindset.

So do you ever find yourself with a 'us and them' mindset? Is it neccesarily a bad thing?

There are definite problems with a completely black and white mindset, a completely us vs them mindset, but there are useful benefits of it as well. The trick is to be flexible and adaptable, while at the same time sure enough to take action on what you justifiably believe.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably worthwhile to assume it's a duck, until further evidence comes along that it's really an animatronic display.

Someone who does not hold a belief in any gods is an atheist, according to the simplest definition of atheist. This is pretty black and white. You're either a theist (belief) or not (no belief). According to that definition, there is no in between. So it is fair for you to internally distinguish people by this criterion. However, the flexibility comes in with the consideration that people don't like to be called atheists because a) atheists tend to get shit on, and b) they have a different concept of what atheist means. So just cuz someone's an atheist by the lacking-belief criterion, doesn't mean you should insist that they call themselves atheists JUST for that reason. There are better, more pragmatic reasons why they should call themselves atheists, namely for the same reasons this website exists. So if it really irks you that they don't admit their non-belief, then talk to them about why non-believers should stand up and be counted. But be flexible as well, because the world is more complicated than just word definitions.

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Loc
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natural wrote:Someone who


natural wrote:
Someone who does not hold a belief in any gods is an atheist, according to the simplest definition of atheist. This is pretty black and white. You're either a theist (belief) or not (no belief). According to that definition, there is no in between.

It's amazing,no matter how many times you say this people will still say' ya but I'm undecided' or'still just not sure.' It really is simple, you believe or don't. And you aren't agnostic.No one is. It doesn't refer to belief. You can be an agnostic atheist or theist, but not just agnostic.

/rant

 

 

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


Strafio
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That's because you use a

That's because you use a different definition of the word as to how people use it.
When debating an issue, there tend to be 3 significant positions.
There's agreeing, disagreeing and not quite sure either way.
In the first two you have an opinion either way and the third shows a lack of commitment to either - a suspension of judgement.

People tend to use 'theism' as agreement with "God exists", 'atheism' as disagreement, and 'agnostic' with no clear opinion either way.
When you tell people they have to be either 'theist' or 'atheist' you are basically being a language Nazi as to how they should and shouldn't use words.
(To be honest, I don't think you can justify that they 'ought' to use the language your way, but if you have some justifications then give them a go)

It would probably be more productive to point out what you and the 'atheist community' tend to mean by atheist.

 

As to the 'us' and 'them' issue, it's a natural psychological accompaniment to any position you hold strongly.
8 years ago I used to think in terms of 'Us' as Nintendo fans and 'Them' as Sony fans.
(That still lingers a little, and probably would even if I myself bought a Playstation! Laughing out loud)
Personally, I think that the 'us' and 'them' state of mind isn't good - it'll cause you to project prejudices.
Having said that, if you're fighting for a cause that needs to be fought, I guess you have to accept that such side effects will occur.
Being aware of them should limit the damage...


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Tilberian wrote:Remember, we

Tilberian wrote:

Remember, we still don't know whether faith is a self-replicating mind virus...

...A what?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


HisWillness
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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Tilberian wrote:

Remember, we still don't know whether faith is a self-replicating mind virus...

...A what?

I think he means "meme" - that was a violent description of a meme, though.

Anyway, it's not really necessary to get everyone on the "atheist" or "theist" side, as far as a declaration is concerned. You can usually accomplish the same thing with "reasonable". It's amazing what the word "reasonable" can get people to admit in the absence of social pressure.

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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" The Middle" said an

" The Middle" said an "easterner" , way over there ....    


nigelTheBold
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Simplicity

Black-and-white mindsets can be comforting. Ignorance is bliss, as with great knowledge comes great confusion.

If you have a very simple worldview (us vs. them, for instance), you understand everything. Nothing is confusing, nothing is hard. Knowledge is absolute. The world makes sense. I think this is part of the appeal of theism. At least, that's the impression I get when discussing God and belief with theists.

As you gain knowledge of the world, as you start to expand your worldview, you lose the comfort of simplicity. Now, few questions are easy. After a point, even the certainty of knowledge itself ebbs.

This is why we have folks like President Carter, who was a great man, and a not-so-great President. He was ineffective, because he saw both sides of almost every issue, and every decision came with great internal debate. Now, I'd say that's better than having a very decisive President who consistently makes the exact wrong decision; but it still is a hinderance.

I think the major reason theists lose their faith is because it becomes more uncomfortable rationalizing their beliefs against their knowledge, than it is to simply accept the knowledge, with all the shades of grey and indeterminacy and multiple points of view.

I might be wrong. I've never really believed in God, so I wouldn't know what the process of losing faith is like. It's just my conclusion after seeing a very few people IRL lose their faith, and listening to some of y'alls stories.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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For me, my emotions

For me, my emotions automatically go to a theist/atheist division.  That doesn't mean I automatically dislike anyone I put into the theist category, but I would be lying if I said it motivates me to try to like them.

If one takes the position that atheism is a default, then there is technically no middle ground.  People who don't specifically believe in a particular god or gods are atheists in the strictest sense, but I recognize that the more common colloquial understanding of atheist/agnostic/theist does leave wiggle room for people who don't like to admit that not believing in a god is the same as not believing in a god, no matter what the degree of certainty is.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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I AM GOD AS YOU
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Cool posts guys,"Words and

Cool posts guys,

"Words and semantics" The "middle"of "Oneness" ? , Heck, the middle of the middle !?!?.  There is no "middle" regarding "GAWED" which = "Oneness". Regarding everything else it seems there is ! ??? 

Them wild Buddhists Taoists, and eastern philosophy .... 

More "knowledge" about consciousness will also further help kill that 'god myth of abe' ... go science / education !!!

Black/White - Atheist/Theist --- Gray: Pantheists/Agnostic/Deists (the romantics!) 

 

 


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Loc wrote:Obi-Wan: "Only the

Loc wrote:

Obi-Wan: "Only the Sith deal in absolutes!'

What's funny is that this statement is an absolute. Anyway, the thing is that people naturally have "us vs. them" attitudes. It's hard to get past it. What's more, we have many "us's" and many "thems". For example, I have the atheist club, the Canadians, the left-wingers, etc. The "thems" are theists, U.S.A.ians, conservatives, etc. There are a few places where I actually have nothing but "us's" such as music-but even then, there are "thems". I love all genres of music, something that I doubt very many people can boast, but I don't like all musicians. So while I can headbang to Lamb of God, dance to Outkast, chill with Feist and have some down-home country fun with the Dixie Chicks all in the same night, I'll get into clashes with fans of Cradle of Filth, 50 Cent, Deathcab for Cutie and Toby Keith. Even when I like someone, but not all that much (as is the case with Daft Punk) fans of that group might get on me. Much as christians get on other christians for lack of faith, and atheists accuse each other (from time to time) of being theistic or agnostic. The main thing is that you don't bring it to extreme levels, which I think you're doing. So, tone it down, eh?