The Brown Paradox
Offline So, everyone knows the Bible mentioned fantastical creatures. Talking animals, unicorns, sea monsters, dragons...
...Wait. fucking dragons?
A diverse class of reptilia that is sapient, covered in armor plating, able to both fly and breathe fire, and rivals even sauropods in size and weight (some figures suggest lengths of more than 140 ft long and 80 tons in weight, depending on the sourcebook or beastiary you flip through)?
I understand the creationist argument for dinosaurs on the Ark. I even think it's a little bit cute. "Moses only took the adorable lil' infants aboard, so there was lots of room for everybody and nobody fought."
Aww.
But wait a minute... sure, I guess most dumb beasts would just sit there and watch their little ones walk-off into the care of an old windbag human (?), and there wouldn't be much they could do after the proverbial hammer fell. But dragons?
Bilbo Baggins wasn't able to take one single piece of treasure from Smaug's lair without the great monster getting pissed and going on a town-wrecking rampage. How do you suppose they would react, then, to the sight of two of their newly hatched offsprings zipping-off to some unknown destination - and then finding that some lowly human had herded them onto a giant, rickety wooden boat?
To quote Sir Wolfram, my prized Rifts Cyberknight, whose final act of consequence was binding and kidnapping a Horned Dragon Hatchling from it's lair and running into the woods:
"...This is not how you can prevent forest fires."
This is a paradox of crushing magnitude. How do you propose that Moses managed to get every animal aboard his Ark without being turned into glowing embers by at least a few dozen terribly irate, fire-breathing, mega-damage capacity objects of his worst of worst nightmares? How was the Ark not completely obliterated?
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
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Well, if your interlocutor believes that every known species in every taxa in the biosphere was herded onto a wooden boat which managed to survive an extinction level event that constituted a form of hydrologic strip mining over the surface of the entire planet whilst simultaneously holding that the entire universe was created after the domestication of the dog, then be assured that the existence of fire-breathing mythical creatures on board the ancient equivalent of carrack is minor problem at best.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
When god made them all descend on the ark he made them docile and obedient of course.
Next silly question
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
You mean Noah, I'm sure.
"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II
My only comment is applause. A thousand internets to you, sir.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
hell with the dragons... what about the termites?!?
What about severely debilitating diseases that can only survive in human or specific animal hosts?
There were ONLY two of each species of termite, silly and god hates sex. How many species were there... ~4,000.... ~8,000 termites... well, Noah must have been fucked then.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
They don't count. Don't you know? God is responsible for diseases, the germ theory of disease has been thoroughly proved wrong.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
Tis a pitty that not all queen termites require a partner to produce eggs eh? ^_^
What Would Kharn Do?
God hates asexual reproduction too, in fact such a masturbatory act is explicitly forbidden, no?
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
*knocks on wood*
... ever seen a termite masturbate?
What Would Kharn Do?
Also, what about insects and other animals with very short lifespans - ie fruit flies only live about a day.
They also never answer where all the food came from or what to do with the huge ammount of shit there would be or how the plants and fish survived (the change in salinity would kill fish)
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
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I can see who was never a fundy here. Think about everything they beleive.This isn't going to make them blink. I'm not saying we shouldn't try, but the fact that they still believe anything in the bible should tell you salty water isn't going to give them reason to start thinking.
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
I often wondered about this too! Well I guess the viruses are out, since they're not technically alive... and as for the other bacteria, well you must recall that this was an era in which bathing was not a priority. I'm sure they all climbed aboard on the animals or Noah's beard or in Sheth's intestines or something...
Well now you're just being silly. My kiddie Bible clearly said that Noah loaded up the ark with food. If I recall correctly, there was also a picture of Noah and his sons fishing off the side of the boat.
And I'm sure that the fruitflies and things were allowed to reproduce as necessary. And the rabbits did anyways, because they couldn't refrain.
As for the shit. Dung beetles. And they tossed the excess overboard.
Well, with the ammount of food neede you're talking about a ship bigger than ever had been built - way bigger than the ark is described - which by the way would sink quickly - a wooden ship simply cannot be built that big and still float. Also remember the only ventilation was a window that was (I think) 20 square inches. Every living thing on board would asphyxiate.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
So there was only 2 of every animal, now say they survived the flood, then started to have children, how many generations could they produce with out have problems from incest? this is the same question i had from adam and eve, how did they start having kids and not run into problems of incest?
Someone else wasn't a Fundie. Incest is not an issue at this point to God. Fundies always see God as the answer to any logical argument like this. Rational thought is dispensed with in this mythical tale, and any problem is solved by saying God can do it.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
so what your saying is god thinks incest is A OK?
Incest only became a sin after Noah's time, when the gene pool was large enough to prevent it. Learnt that christian school, so
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
So what if no one tells Jimbob we hit 20,000 people and he goes on fuckin his sista?!
this christian science... man... >.> flakey shit it be
What Would Kharn Do?
Not just that incest is A OK, but that it's awesome. God's all for it, but He has to schedule it. So, like, all the animals + sudden population bottleneck = incest. That's okay. The emperor character in Gladiator who was hot for his sister, not okay.
It's easy: all you have to do is make something up that you like or don't like, and then find the passage in the bible that agrees with you. Thanks for playing; see you next time!
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
I've been reading your posts gang, and wondering " what are you guys on! " Kevin R. Brown lives in Alberta where winters are very very v e r y loooonnnnggg. Sober up and remember thou art athiest!
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Keven, you live in Alberta???
I'm just across the border in Saskatchewan....
LC >;-}>
Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.
Sweet! High-five for being in geographically close proximity (and a fellow prairie province deweller to boot)!
*High-Five!*
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Jeffrick here in beautifull southeren Ontario (Mississauga----- not Mr. Sauga) and you two have my deepest sympathy, eh.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Hey you two , why are my bread and gas prices so high? Poor GTA (Greater Toronto Are) needs a break, and lower prices. Talk to your MPP's.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
I've been to Mississauga - you have my deepest sympathies. I'm in Guelph.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Problems with this paradox:
1. No one knows if dragons actually "breathe fire." It could be that they were dinosaurs with an exceptionally bad case of halatosis.
2. Even assuming that dragons breathe fire, it would have been too troublesome for Noah to have taken adults, as that he could easily take eggs or infants which sap much less in the way of resources. It's unlikely infant dragons could breathe fire, anyway, even if the adults could.
3. IF dragons breathe fire, and IF a fire got started in this manner, then unless the dragons breathe greek fire Noah would have had plenty of water to put it out. Even if they breathed greek fire, Noah had several sons who could have urinated on it (the old solution for greek fire.)
Be honest. This has such large gaping holes in it that it isn't a "paradox." It's a rallying banner.
"Truth is the cry of all, but the game of the few." George Berkeley
"Truth is always strange — stranger than fiction." Lord Byron
Fixing the world, one dumb idea at a time.
I've been to Guelph - you have my deepest sympathies.
I always thought that town's name sounded too much like a Phil Foglio sound effect. Either that, or it should be 20 minutes' drive from Growf and Shazam.
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maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.
You are complaining that a question involving what has been shown in this thread and others to be a ridiculous story is full of holes?Feel free to build a scale ark and live in in for 40 days with several thousand animals. Make sure none die or that's extiction for them. Let me know how it goes.
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
Answer...suspended animation...he is God, phsyics, space-time continuum, and reality don't apply. Next question please.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Fire is one of the worst possible things that can happen to a modern ship, let alone a wooden one without mechanical means of fighting one. There were no fire extinguishers - best thing would be buckets which would only work on a small fire. Once the fire burns to the waterline the ship sinks (regardless of the fact that would happen without fire to a ship the size described for the ark in the Buybull.)
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Not to mention the incredible amount of hay they must have had for all those animals.Nice dry, flammable hay.Ever heard of the Great Chicago fire? All started with some hay.The ark would have gone up in minutes.
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
Gandalf strongly implies it. Smaug physically proves it. Every dragon in my Monster Manual has a breath weapon stat. So do all the ones in my Rifts worldbooks and Compendiums.
I contend that this is more than sufficient evidence.
And the adult dragons are just going to sit there and watch their hatchlings get abducted?
Sir Wolfram's account would attest otherwise.
An adult Red Dragon's breath weapon does 18d10 worth of fire damage. That's a lot of magical fire for Noah's sons to be pissing out. Particularly after said fire has been used to burn said son's skin off their bones.
Rallying banner? Are you fucked-up?
This is a tongie-in-cheek assertion of the stupidity of assigning arbitrary factuality to fantastical tomes & accounts.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Don't ever, ever mess with a nerd.
They ought to put warning labels on us.
Ok, my turn:
Also, no one knows if dragons have ever physically existed.
How could you tell the sex of the baby if it's still in an egg? Ah, forgot - God.
I doubt it would have been greek fire, as it is posited that those are all from petroleum or petroleum derivatives. That would be hard to synthesize in a dragon's gut, not just from a chemial standpoint, but also because it would be hard to keep the entire dragon from combusting.
I'm sorry... a rallying banner? The dragon thing is sort of a facetious joke, as there is currently no proof of dragons having ever existed. Dragons aside, the story of the ark cannot be literally true, given its scientific impossibiliity.
You do realize, that we're not seriously trying to figure out how it happened... I think most of us have already passed that point and come to the conclusion that it couldn't (myself included - I really did spend entire biology classes in high school trying to come up with a way for the story to even be metaphorically true).
Here are more questions that haven't been brought up yet - what about asexual organisms, like echinoderms? Did Noah have to bring 2 of those, too?
What about plants?
With millions of species on board, there's no way that you could feed all of them and shovel out their shit in one day. (nevermind the feat of fitting them all on the ark).. How did they care for the animals?
These aren't large gaping holes?
This is just an odd, random connection, but when I was doing my undergrad, I had to do a presentation on an article by a philosophy professor at the University of Guelph. I thought that "Guelph" was such a cool looking and cool sounding name for a city.
If you're a boat-buildin', uneducated nutbag (half a step from caveman) you really gotta work long and hard to identify the "hoo-dads" of what ? like 5-30 millions species? It won't do much good to take all females or all males, now will it ? How many pairs of species died during the "timeframe" this little job took ?
Now just because xtians have..."unparalleled skill and experience" feeling up the wee-wee's and the wah-wah's of human children, this won't necessarily translate to a gastropod now will it ?
Alas, many gastropods have sex organs of both sexes so for you theists reading out there.....that would be twice the naughty!!.. and god clearly missed the opportunity to drown these spawns of satan. Useless deity ! ** Straightens "One Man One Woman ** t-shirt.
I love the absurdity (bordering on clinical insanity) of xtian apologetics....
And clearly you are not familiar w/ Godzuki !!
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell
Good point:
What am I missing?
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maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.
Nope. You don't need God for this one. As that dragons are creatures that we know virtually nothing about (including if they ever exist) then we can guess about their growth and development. Crocodiles are good models,though, and sex in crocodiles is determined by incubation temperature.
"Truth is the cry of all, but the game of the few." George Berkeley
"Truth is always strange — stranger than fiction." Lord Byron
Fixing the world, one dumb idea at a time.
lol nice warning
Sounds complicated.Could this be done by Bronze Age man with no scientific knowledge or instruments?
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
Not really. Assuming that Noah knew that (which is unlikely, adding support to the infant idea) then for the males you would need to keep the eggs just above the temperature required for incubation and the females at a temperature below the fatal temperature (perhaps it's the other way around, but I think not.)
In either case, while the determining temperature is only about a degree or so (Centigrade) the ranges that incubation can occur at are wide enough to detect differences by touch, although a clever Noah would have figured out that a container of water in the nest would make sensing temperature differences easier because water contacts your skin with much more surface area and has greater heat capacity.
"Truth is the cry of all, but the game of the few." George Berkeley
"Truth is always strange — stranger than fiction." Lord Byron
Fixing the world, one dumb idea at a time.
Besides guys, he had divine inspiration remember?
Knowledge wouldn't have been an issue, it being God's omniscient plan and all.
God probably just told him "Fetch an egg that looks like this and put it in this kind of container"
Evan didn't know how to make an Arc either but Morgan Freeman fixed up him fine!
I saw a documentary on dragons and they clearly say the dragons preceded the 6,000 year mark. They even have film footage, so I'm afraid video evidence trumps written evidence (or is it the other way around).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_SDzeOMdE
As far as incest, the generations that started the Human Race 2.0 must have been doorknob-dumb - maybe this is the original sin they talk about and that we have to overcome: God wanted us to start stupid and gullible.
Thanks, God, it worked real great...
Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov
The awesomeness of your evidence is overwhelming. I will now live in fear of a dragon armageddon. Or have some toast with jam, which I will call "dragon toast" and leave it at that. Hopefully "dragon toast" does no damage, at least this turn.
Could you quote your dragon manuals with chapter and paragraph numbers, like the bible? I mean, any time someone comes out with a Bible quote now, I'm going to be tempted to say, "Yes, but in Kevin 3:13 ..."
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
I have a reliable source who informs me that dragon armageddon has already been visited upon us and it failed. I saw the whole thing. Everyone should see D-Wars (Dragon Wars) because this is the only documented source of this failed armageddon and we must be prepared for the next time (it'll happen in 500 years). If your eyes begin to bleed, rinse thoroughly and air dry. If the bleeding continues consult a physician immediately.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."