Voting age

Shaitian
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Voting age

So i was thinking the other day and it occurred to me that if here in the states if we lowered the age for voting we might actually increase the amount of young people who vote. By lowering it it would mean that you would be able to put voting booths in the high schools in the gyms and then let the students have easier access to a voting machine.  This may make it better for an outcome of the independent or green party or one of the other minority party's to rise up and actually force the democrats and the Republicans to actually do something in fear of losing their power and domination.
I just was wondering what you all thought of this...


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I forgot to add that we

I forgot to add that we should lower it to 16 years of age...


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Well, I'm generally against

Well, I'm generally against changing voting laws to benefit a party.  I guess the real question is whether or not we want educated, informed voters, or just numbers of voters.

As a complete derail, my personal opinion on the matter is that everything ought to happen at 18.  Driving, voting, drinking, cigarettes, porn, whatever.  If you're an adult at 18, then you can do anything any other adult can do.

 

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I agree that it all should

I agree that it all should happen at 18 - though I'm in favor of keeping driving at 16. Seriously it is idiotic that someone can join the military cult and die for our current idiotic presidentss moronic war, but cant legally buy a beer? And can go to adult jail for committing a crime? Our soicety is so fucked up from  the influence of asshat puritans.I think Europe has it better where anyone can drink with parental permission  - maybe not be allowed to own a weapon or join the military until 21 - when you might realize more what you are getting into.

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Well i agree with that but

Well i agree with that but we all know they won't lower the drinking age, it would be more likely for them to lower the voting age, hell it would be more likely for them to lower the age of when you become an adult before lowering the drinking age. i feel that if students were able to vote at a younger age they would pay more attention to what is going on in the country, i know most of my friends and me would sit in school and either we would talk politics or we would talk about blowing stuff up. so i mean many of us are more aware of what is going on around this country than alot of adults are.  so i cant exactly say it would be bad...


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18 is a good age. In

18 is a good age. In Australia that is the legal age of nearly everything. None of this crazy shit of you can go to was but not drink or vote.

The only problem with really young people (please don't take offense, I really love discussing stuff w you guys and it's great to get fresh and interesting viewpoints) is that they seem more likely to really grab a cause very passionately but without realizing that they may not have the whole picture yet.

I don't understand why voting isn't compulsory in the US. Sure, it can be a pain in the ass, but it makes you take a look at what's going on for at least a little while. Everyone that didn't vote against Bush is just as guilty for him being in power as those that voted for him.

If voting is voluntary, those that can be bothered voting are more likely to be people with strong oppinions, such as fundies.

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Have you looked at accident

Have you looked at accident statistics?  Do you have any idea how many accidents would be prevented by keeping 16 and 17 year olds from behind the wheel?

"Drivers between the age of 15 and 20 accounted for only 6.9 percent of all licensed drivers, but were involved in 16.0 percent of all accidents and 14.0 percent of all fatal accidents. The fatality rate for drivers 16 - 19 is about 4 times as high as the rate for drivers age 25 - 69."

http://www.central-insurance.com/docs/cmaaccid.htm

 

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What's licensing like in the

What's licensing like in the U.S?

When you get your license in the States, are you allowed to drive by yourself, our do you have to have someone else with a certain amount of previous driving experience as passenger?

 

As for voting, I think it should stay at 18. You should have as much education/live experience as possible before casting the ballot.


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Quote:What's licensing like

Quote:
What's licensing like in the U.S?

You can get a learners permit at 15, which allows you to drive with a parent or guardian.  At 16, whether you got your learners permit or not, you can drive by yourself by passing one written test and one road test.

Personally, I think drivers licenses ought to cost at least a thousand dollars.  The age ought to be 18, and they should be provisional for five years.  If you get more than, say, three violations in the first five years, you have to go through the whole licensing process again, at added expense.  I think the government ought to encourage mass transit by making driving into more of an earned thing.  I haven't really thought the whole thing out in detail, but I think it's too easy to get a license here.

 

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In Pennsylvania i know that

In Pennsylvania i know that you are required to either have your permit for 6 months or have racked up at least 200hours  of driving time. You have to have a person who is more experienced with you to sign off saying that you have did either one or the other. They have a log thing that should be used but isn't used. Basically its just the persons word that has any merit. If you are over eighteen you could go up to the DMV one day get your permit and then go back up the next day and get a license since you don't have to have anyone with you to verify. I failed my test the first time, but i actually wasn't my fault. The E-brake snapped when i pressed on it and so it stayed on till i pulled it up.( it was one of those step on ones down by your left foot) It hadn't been used in the 14 years we had the car so... I agree with both your comments on its way to easy to get a license in this country, and that the government should take and promote a more mass-transit society.  I think that alot of your larger cities should go back to the old trolley system since they are always fun and they are cheaper than having to dig and maintain tunnels.


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I did some digging about

I did some digging about trolleys once.  Turns out that along the east coast, many of the trolleys were bought by.... (care to guess?)... car companies.  After a few years of operation to throw the scent off, the car companies systematically shut down the trolleys.

 

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Hambydammit wrote:I did some

Hambydammit wrote:

I did some digging about trolleys once.  Turns out that along the east coast, many of the trolleys were bought by.... (care to guess?)... car companies.  After a few years of operation to throw the scent off, the car companies systematically shut down the trolleys.

 

To be fair, it's not like there was a public uproar when it happened, either. By nearly any account, the message of the disassembly of the trolleys was positively embraced, as it made more room for people to cruise their cars around in. I'm a fan of buses and the local Light Rail Transit in my city... but I think I'm pretty close to the only one (or, the only one gainfully employed).

People demand the capacity for personal freedom, and I know lots of them that associate 'freedom' with 'freedom of mobility' - which they feel only a personal vehicle can provide in such a big country.

 

I agree with pretty much everything you have to say about automobiles, Hamby. Kids shouldn't be blindly trusted with a few hundred miles per hour of kinetic force and whatever absurd number of litres of highly explosive fluid; people should not be given the opportunity to cruise at ludicrously high speed without at least some kind of special licensing; 'drunk driving' laws and 'education' are a laughable excuse for a real solution to a real problem and serve only to line municipality pockets; it should be a real accomplishment for someone to hang-on to their driver's license for the duration of their adult life.

I don't know of a single other person who agrees about responsible automobile ownership. People just scoff at my 'dumb ass' or insist that I just 'grow-up' and get a license and vehicle, for the sake of my own convenience (I'll be the first to admit that doing all my travelling on foot, aside from public transit, is certainly inconvenient. But I think safety and consideration for the well-being of others should take precedence over that most of the time). The fact is, I have bad eyesight, my hand-eye coordination sucks and I have a very poor capacity for multitasking. I took a Driver's Ed course, and despite the fact that I myself knew how what terrible control I had over the car at any point in time and how low my situational awareness was, those fuckers were going to pass me anyway, because I drove so 'well' considering my vision (I did ace a parallel park on my first go) and it wasn't my 'fault', afterall, having poor eyesight.

As if 'fault' even enters the Goddamn equation here!

 

I don't know what it'll take to wake people up. Gigantic, horrifying vehicle pile-ups haven't done it ('It was the poor visibility's fault!'), shameful teen accident and mortality rates haven't done it, slowly ramping gas prices haven't done it ('I'll just buy a more fuel efficient car!'), personal experiences with car accidents don't even seem to do it. We're fucking drive-a-holics, and at this point, essentially fail to see that there's even a problem.

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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The problem with restricting

The problem with restricting driving is if you live in certain areas, it's almost impossible to get anywhere without a car. Public transportation is virtually non-existant around here. Making getting a license expensive is one of the worst ideas I ever heard in my life - the last thing we need is another advantage for people with a lot of money.

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Graduated licensing has been

Graduated licensing has been very successful here at reducing the accidents in the lower age groups.  Though it's a pain in the ass for people who want to get their license, it's generally a good system and seems to produce better drivers.


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MattShizzle wrote:The

MattShizzle wrote:

The problem with restricting driving is if you live in certain areas, it's almost impossible to get anywhere without a car. Public transportation is virtually non-existant around here. Making getting a license expensive is one of the worst ideas I ever heard in my life - the last thing we need is another advantage for people with a lot of money.

I don't have a car or a license. I get around just fine. I live in Canada, one of the most spcaed-out and least densely populated countries in the world.

The word 'bicycle' comes to mind, though honestly, I haven't gone and picked-up one of those.

 

Car pooling works wonders. So does walking. So does public transit. The myth that absolutely everyone somehow needs a car is a bad joke.

The idea behind making licensing expensive isn't to consolidate another activity into the realm of the wealthy - it's to make you actually feel accountable. If a person had to spend a thousand dollars (or, say, even five hundred dollars) on their license, they wouldn't likely be too eager to lose it and have to go through the whole licensing procedure and expense again.

To really fix it, though, we'd also have to fix a number of related problems in the judicial system (...but I think that's going beyond the scope of this discussion), since you'd probably otherwise just get a bunch of people shrugging and driving around without proper licenses.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
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Tarpan wrote:Graduated

Tarpan wrote:

Graduated licensing has been very successful here at reducing the accidents in the lower age groups.  Though it's a pain in the ass for people who want to get their license, it's generally a good system and seems to produce better drivers.

I've heard about BC's licensing program, and I think it's a great start, if nothing else.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Quote:Graduated licensing

Quote:
Graduated licensing has been very successful here at reducing the accidents in the lower age groups.

How does it work?

 

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Quote:The myth that

Quote:
The myth that absolutely everyone somehow needs a car is a bad joke.

I have a car, but I use it so seldom that it hardly matters.  I take the bus into town, or walk, or get a cab if it's a pinch.  I walk to my restaurant every day.  I catch rides when I know someone is going the same place as me.

One of my friends is married with two kids, and he and his wife both work.  They have one car between them.  They get the kids to school, themselves to work, and everywhere else they need to go.

I've already bitched about how bad mass transit is in my town.  Yet, it's still possible.  How much better when mass transit is actually good?

 

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http://www.icbc.com/Licensing

http://www.icbc.com/Licensing/

 

Learners -> Novice -> Full-fledged driver.

 

Still a few loopholes and bizarre rules, but it's a start.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Hambydammit wrote:Quote:The

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:
The myth that absolutely everyone somehow needs a car is a bad joke.

I have a car, but I use it so seldom that it hardly matters.  I take the bus into town, or walk, or get a cab if it's a pinch.  I walk to my restaurant every day.  I catch rides when I know someone is going the same place as me.

One of my friends is married with two kids, and he and his wife both work.  They have one car between them.  They get the kids to school, themselves to work, and everywhere else they need to go.

I've already bitched about how bad mass transit is in my town.  Yet, it's still possible.  How much better when mass transit is actually good?

 

I recall a foreign exchange student from the Netherlands back in high school saying that the weirdest things about being in Canada was seeing people with more cars in their driveway than there were drivers in the household.

It's not unreasonable to want a personal vehicle for your family, when you've got several places to ferry people to and a limited schedule to do it on. But I've yet to see a single case that justifies the current trend of at least two full-sized autos in every garage.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:
Graduated licensing has been very successful here at reducing the accidents in the lower age groups.

How does it work?

 

 

You read a book and take a written test to get your learners (class 7a).  You wear an L on your car when you drive for 12 months (may be reduced if you have formalized approved training).  After the time you take a test to get your class 7 licenses (novice) which restricts time of day, and is essentially a 'no tolerance' license.  you can't have any alcohol in your system, be even 50% responsible for accidents, or have any kind of hits against you in anyway, and can only have 1 passenger.  You wear an N on your car and you hold that status for 24 months (18 if you have approved training).  The N and L are displayed to all other drivers as, essentially, a warning.

We've seen a 16% reduction in accidents since it's institution, Ontario something like 31% and Nova Scotia was around 15% as well I think.


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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

http://www.icbc.com/Licensing/

 

Learners -> Novice -> Full-fledged driver.

 

Still a few loopholes and bizarre rules, but it's a start.

 

Yup, not perfect...but it's progress that's for sure.


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Well the closest mass

Well the closest mass transit comes to me ever, at all,  is about 12 miles away. How's someone going to ride a bike home anywhere more than a couple blocks after work? When I was working I could barely stand up at the end of an 8 hour shift. Also, with making them expensive - who would drive trucks, buses, etc? - People who do that for a living don't come from wealthy backgrounds. A lot of people who aren't from the US don't realize most of us - except living in big cities don't live within walking distance of work - there's plenty of people who drive more than an hour each way to work. I rural/small areas there is literally NO public transportation - unless you want a taxi to come from the city (about $60 before they even pick you up at your house - then the per mile charge.) I plenty of areas having a car is just about a necessity - not having one is an extreme inconvenience at best. How would people get their groceries even if they have access to public transportation? Most people I know fill their trunk up when they go to the store - no way to carry on foot/bike and public transportation won't do that. The only way they could do anything like this is to make extreme changes in American society. I personally feel getting a license should be easier in some ways - the hardest part for most people is parallel parking, which shouldn't be a requirement ( I got mine while they weren't requiring it or never would have passed - the cop actually passed me even though I technically failed - the thing that brought me down was driving too slow - I was 18 - of course that's before the state took it because of my health.

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On the OP, here in SA

On the OP, here in SA everything is at 18. America's pretty weird with ages, but I don't think 16 year olds should vote.

I've said it all before,but again. Americans are damn crazy letting 16yo's drive around. I would not trust the average one teowash a car.

In South Africa, you apply for a a learners at 17.5yo. You do a written test, if you pass you put a 'L' on the car and can drive only with a licensed driver in the car. After you turn 18, you can book your license. You have to have a number of lessons with a credited driving school(think that fell away though) and then do your test. The test is pretty stringent from what I've heard.It's really easy to fail.That's that..

People still drive terribly though.

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MattShizzle wrote:I plenty

MattShizzle wrote:

I plenty of areas having a car is just about a necessity - not having one is an extreme inconvenience at best.

I agree with your entire post, Matt.

I'm not sure exactly what area of the US you live in, but I've lived in the suburbs of Chicago my entire life, and I think our mass transit system is apalling.

Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of ways to get around in the city - the el, public buses, and more taxis than actual cars on the road. But once you leave the city, you're on your own. Most suburbs have limited, if any, public bus service - my hometown has one bus stop that drops workers from the city off at 9 am and picks them up at 6 pm. That's pretty much the norm.

There's no convenient way to get from one suburb to another. I currently attend school in Evanston, an hour's drive from my hometown of Hinsdale. The only way to use public transportation to get home would be to take the el into the city, walk to union station, and then take the metra train to Hinsdale, and walk the last mile to my house - the entire trip would take nearly 3 hours.

I live 2 blocks from campus, my internship job is on campus, and I live a mile from the commercial district of town, so I usually am able to just walk or bike to wherever I need to go. But for grocery shopping, I'm still forced to use the car, because I like to get the big fridge packs of soda, which are impossible to transport on a bike. (I installed a basket on the back of my bike, so that small errands would be possible.)

I'd love to see an expansion of public transportation systems, especially in the suburbs, because I think this is the area that uses cars the most.

 

And about the age thing - I don't think you'd have very many socially conscious 16-year-olds voting for independent parties. Most likely, it would just be an extension of Obama-rama, with teens just voting for whoever their friends vote for. I do not think I had enough political knowledge to be adequately prepared to vote when I was in high school.

 


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I love the idea, and not

I love the idea, and not naming names, that the same people who complain about taxes and mock Canadian taxes also complain about the things that taxes pay for (health care, transit etc).

I am very content with the transit system we have here in BC.  The Lowermainland, a bunch of cities all wrapped around Vancouver, have a fairly incredible transit system.  I may still be an hour out from work but we have buses, trains, skytrain (a monorail type thing), seabus...I am a half hour out of downtown vancouver and I spend 2.25 to get in...and it gets c heaper with monthly passes or tickets.  Maybe not a perfect system at times...but it's incredible compared to most places in the world.

In Ottawa it only covered the one city but between the train and the buses and dedicated roads for the buses that made the trips farily quick even during rush hour...its a great system.  Taxes in Ottawa are crazy, but you see what you pay for all winter long as they make the entire lake into an ice rink and it gets covered with people skating all winter long...plus the roads etc get cleared incredibly efficiently.

I don't own a car...have never needed to.  I have been upwards of an hour out from work and still the transit system is faster than driving and a hell of a lot cheaper.

 


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MattShizzle wrote:Well the

MattShizzle wrote:

Well the closest mass transit comes to me ever, at all,  is about 12 miles away. How's someone going to ride a bike home anywhere more than a couple blocks after work? When I was working I could barely stand up at the end of an 8 hour shift. Also, with making them expensive - who would drive trucks, buses, etc? - People who do that for a living don't come from wealthy backgrounds. A lot of people who aren't from the US don't realize most of us - except living in big cities don't live within walking distance of work - there's plenty of people who drive more than an hour each way to work. I rural/small areas there is literally NO public transportation - unless you want a taxi to come from the city (about $60 before they even pick you up at your house - then the per mile charge.) I plenty of areas having a car is just about a necessity - not having one is an extreme inconvenience at best. How would people get their groceries even if they have access to public transportation? Most people I know fill their trunk up when they go to the store - no way to carry on foot/bike and public transportation won't do that. The only way they could do anything like this is to make extreme changes in American society. I personally feel getting a license should be easier in some ways - the hardest part for most people is parallel parking, which shouldn't be a requirement ( I got mine while they weren't requiring it or never would have passed - the cop actually passed me even though I technically failed - the thing that brought me down was driving too slow - I was 18 - of course that's before the state took it because of my health.

Well Matt, you and the local Goddess have an excellent case for owning a vehicle, then. 'Nobody should own a car' is one extreme, and not what I was going for. The things is, right now, we're in the opposite extreme, where everyone seems to think they should own two or so cars.

The middle ground, where people like yourself who (I presume) have proven themselves to be responsible drivers and actually need a personal auto have the privilege of owning and operating one and everyone else gives their head and shakeand seriously considers whether or not they need such a machine, is what I'd like.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Tarpan wrote:I love the

Tarpan wrote:

I love the idea, and not naming names, that the same people who complain about taxes and mock Canadian taxes also complain about the things that taxes pay for (health care, transit etc).

I am very content with the transit system we have here in BC.  The Lowermainland, a bunch of cities all wrapped around Vancouver, have a fairly incredible transit system.  I may still be an hour out from work but we have buses, trains, skytrain (a monorail type thing), seabus...I am a half hour out of downtown vancouver and I spend 2.25 to get in...and it gets c heaper with monthly passes or tickets.  Maybe not a perfect system at times...but it's incredible compared to most places in the world.

In Ottawa it only covered the one city but between the train and the buses and dedicated roads for the buses that made the trips farily quick even during rush hour...its a great system.  Taxes in Ottawa are crazy, but you see what you pay for all winter long as they make the entire lake into an ice rink and it gets covered with people skating all winter long...plus the roads etc get cleared incredibly efficiently.

I don't own a car...have never needed to.  I have been upwards of an hour out from work and still the transit system is faster than driving and a hell of a lot cheaper.

 

They don't like the public services because they don't like shelling-out for 'free-loaders'.

To each their own, I suppose.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


Jacob Cordingley
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Here in the UK everything is

Here in the UK everything is 18. Driving is 17, although this is set to change to 18 to prevent accidents. The age of sexual consent is 16, which I think is fair, at 16 you're of an age where you're mature enough. Even then most people don't exactly go out and fuck each other. I was 17 and in a relationship, and I was the first among my close friends. I think if it were much younger than 16 there would be problems. I don't think that consenting 16 and 17 year olds should be prevented from having sex if they want to.

As for the voting age I think 18 is probably about right. I mean I was interested in politics from fairly young, but I'm an exception to the rule. Most people younger than 18 though don't give a shit or are too immature.


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I live in Southeastern

I live in Southeastern Pennsylvania (Berks County.) Making a license like $500 or $1000 would keep a lot of people from being able to afford one. I think they should be free. These little fees they charge are basically an extra, regressive kind of tax.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


jmm
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Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:
What's licensing like in the U.S?

You can get a learners permit at 15, which allows you to drive with a parent or guardian.  At 16, whether you got your learners permit or not, you can drive by yourself by passing one written test and one road test.

Personally, I think drivers licenses ought to cost at least a thousand dollars.  The age ought to be 18, and they should be provisional for five years.  If you get more than, say, three violations in the first five years, you have to go through the whole licensing process again, at added expense.  I think the government ought to encourage mass transit by making driving into more of an earned thing.  I haven't really thought the whole thing out in detail, but I think it's too easy to get a license here.

 

Most definitely.  It's frightening to think that people can drive by themselves at age 16.  I mean, 16-year olds aren't exactly renowned for their responsibility or good decision making. 


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Kevin R Brown wrote:They

Kevin R Brown wrote:

They don't like the public services because they don't like shelling-out for 'free-loaders'.

To each their own, I suppose.

Yes, it's better to do without good services than to mistakenly help someone who doesn't deserve it.