Welcome jman.

This question has been done to death-yes Leprechaunology hasn't affected you at all. The same can't be said for the majority of theism though.

Think of a war that didn't have theism involved at some level. Think of the scientific advance lost in the christian dark ages. Think of the current war on science and the opposition of stem cell research. Think of 9/11. Think of the fact America would rather elect someone purely because they read the bible than a qualified person who doesn't. Think of the virtually non existent line between church and state.Think of the fragile middle east with it's competing religion. Of suicide bombers and children who die because their parents would rather pray than take them to doctors.

Think of the athiest cut off from his family for daring to not believe.Of endless division caused by different sects of the same religion.

Leprechaunology hasn't affected anyone. But if it's followers started threating the survival of mankind, people would have an obligation to speak up. Theism has affected everyone to walk the planet.

For interest,are you atheist?

I'm not going through any trouble - not costing me a thing to be an atheist.

Now if you're asking why the RRS and those who write on atheism do what they're doing - I think you have it backwards. From what I've seen, there is no atheist attack on theism. The books (as I've read them) read as defense against the theist attack, not the reverse.

There have been public figures claiming American atheists aren't good Americans (and that they shouldn't be citizens). There are laws being put forth claiming Christianity alone has contributed positively to Western society. We've had a candidate for President who wants to rewrite the Constitution to fit what his version of God intended according to the Bible.

Where are the atheists attacking theism, again?

So where does Endor fit in all of this?

Endor is not real, there are no Ewoks, only Leprechauns. The fact that you would even think such things just goes to show that invisible pink unicorn is putting doubts in your head to draw you away from Leprechauns. Follow the rainbow and you will become rich beyond your wildest dreams!

I only have time to reply once for tonight, thanks to an O'Chem test tomorrow morning. And this next week isn't going to look too promising either. It's finals week again, and if I even come on here to read the posts, I'll get sucked in and no studying will be done. I really like all of the discussion here.

First, I'm sorry if you've been asked this many time before. It's the first time I've asked anyone though, and I just wanted to know what an atheist would say to it. And no, I'm not an atheist. I'm a Christian. And who knows what kind of people come on here claiming Christianity, so let me just say that I believe in the inerrancy of the Bible (and please don't change the topic to the inerrancy of the Bible. there's a who thread or five dedicated to this, so let's argue this on those. thanks) and the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that religion is causing the fall of mankind. I know that that's actually the exact opposite goal of Christianity. And I know that it's true that religion has been the cause of a lot of turmoil in this world, but non-religious leaders have had their fair share of crimes against humanity, too.

And would you consider a crime caused by someone who used religion to gain power, even though they do not believe it themselves, a religious crime? Personally, I blame the man abusing religion rather than religion itself. I think the depravity of man is the cause the world's hardships, and false and corrupt religions are just the fruits of man's sin. It's just displacing the blame to point to religion and say "That's the problem!" Our depravity is the true source of the troubles we face today.

I know that the goal of Christianity is not to destroy man kind. In fact, it's just the opposite.

Or for that matter why did jman care to sign up on our site and ask the questions at all? 

It may be easier to shut up but many of us prefer answers, much like you.  I know I'd like to see if the world can overcome brainwashing and childhood indoctrination of deep seated beliefs.  That's a question I think the answer is worth spending a great deal of time on.

Presumably, as a washed in the blood, bible believing literalist, you think that Islam is the work of satan, right?  You know that their goal is not to destroy mankind either, right?  They are sure that Allah just wants them to get rid of the infidels, and then things will be awesome.

Noble goals don't mean noble results, my friend.

If you look around at some of the posts you will find some truly nutty christians posting here, but also some nice ones. If you continue on as you have been, we'll try to be nice to you (but obviously don't expect us to respect your beliefs).

There have already been some good posts here. (nice one Nigel) I know it probably won't change your beliefs, but look up some of the threads about the inerracy of the bible, especially those by Rook.

Religion is still causing a lot of turmoil. Wars aside it is causing a lot of hatred and persecution across the world (including the USA). It also causes a lot of ignorance, people disregarding scientific progress bacause their religion tells them to. Ignoring the greenhouse effect because either they don't believe it or because they think revelations will come first (including people in government who are supposed to be the ones trying to stop it). Persecuting whichever groups they are told to (homosexuals, other religious groups etc). The list goes on and on.

"would you consider a crime caused by someone who used religion to gain power, even though they do not believe it themselves, a religious crime?"

No, but being able to use religion as a tool to get people to do horrible things is one of its problems.

The "false and corrupt religions" believe that they are true and that your religion is false and corrupt. How do you know (not using the bible, they have books too) that they are not right?

Christianity makes no claim to try and save mankind, other than his soul. This is another problem. The church believes that suffering is good and that it is God's plan, as long as you save the soul. This is not saveing mankind. Christians have committed many attrocities based on this belief.

The Oath of Jake I do pledge in the honor of the one eternal truth, all is One, all is God.

     Now what ?      Hey, fly me to the moon , as the church says no to such powerful knowledge. Go figure ? ...... how come ? 

Lets make one thing clear, this particular site, but in general, skeptics also, reject all sorts of superstition, theism is merely one, unfortunatly it is the most organized and in every nation on the face of the planet has an influance on global politics. If humanity is to collectively survive we need to work toward an attitude of treating personal whims like theism as a pastime and not a worldview.

We also reject claims of pantheism, ghosts, vampires and tarot cards. For the same reason you reject the claims of Scientology we reject your magical claims as well.

In all this you need to keep in mind that we are aware that 6 billion people will not be a clone of each other and any morally decent person does not want to seek a fascist state outlawing religion. So please while you stay and debate us here, try to refrain from buying such a fallacious stereotype.

We are your classmates, co-workers, family members and friends. Outside the issue of religion we can and often do overlap on issues such as politics, hobbies and entertainment. Our goal is not to opress anyone, but to do in the words of Thomas Jefferson,

"Question with boldness even the existence of God , for if there be one, surely he would pay more homage to reason than to that of blindfolded fear" Thomas Jefferson.

He was a deist who equated the virgin birth and death of Jesus to being in the same class as Minerva being born out of the brain of Jupiter.

He did, however believe in a generic god who started everything and stepped aside. We would still have a problem with even that claim, but I think HIS attitude, if he were alive today, would not be one hate or fear because his personal beliefs were challenged.

So while here, do not take things personally, treat all the members here as separate individuals and don't confuse blasphemy or criticism with hating you personally, and you should do fine, even if you never switch positions.

Hey! What a coincidence. Christianity and I share the same goal. The question is, what might cause the fall of mankind, and what might forestall it?

There are many who follow the doctrines of Christ. And there are many who don't. Some that follow His doctrines are good people. Some are terrible, evil people. Some who don't believe in Him are good people. Some are terrible, evil people.

The goodness some attribute to the following of a faith is nothing more than the goodness that resides within us already. The evil some attribute to a lack of faith, or a corruption by evil forces, is nothing more than the evil that resides within us already. We are all products and victims of human nature. The sooner we realize we are easily misled and corrupted by our own ideals, the sooner we can embrace knowledge and wisdom.

This applies to theists and atheists alike.

The major difference between atheists and theists, as far as knowledge is concerned, is that many atheists have abandoned certain knowledge (and the knowledge of certainty) for contingent knowledge, probable knowledge. When you are certain of something, the opposite becomes impossible. This happens even among sceptical atheists, so it's not a problem with theism per se. Again, it's human nature, both the fount and corrupter of all that is good in us.

With theism, there is a realm in which you are asked to suspend scepticism. For some, that is the only effect: they have faith, and in all that is observable and empirical, they resume scepticism. This sort of belief affects nobody else. It is a personal thing. There are others who use the lack of scepticism in their belief, and extend that to all the beliefs touch upon. These are the people who are not sceptical of empirical observation and the logical conclusions thereof -- they are downright hostile. This includes those who insist the sun revolves around a flat earth, the universe is only 6,000 years old, and that Intelligent Design is a sound scientific hypothesis.

I think you'll find most of us here don't insist on absolute rationality. We all have irrational beliefs, every one of us. Some believe the "invisible hand" of the free market will provide economic stability and fairness. Others believe we will settle first our solar system, and then (eventually) other extra-solar planets. Still others believe a samurai sword is the best weapon against zombies, when every reasonable person knows the best weapon is very strong coffee, and a bastard sword that shoots lasers.

I'll step out on a limb here, and say that most of us here would just like people to behave rationally, to base actual important decisions on rational thought, rather than irrational desires or beliefs. The first step is simply realizing which of your beliefs and assumptions are rational, and which are not. Most of us here would be glad to help distinguish between them.

I think most of us have the same goal -- to see humanity succeed in a good way (for various definitions of "succeed" ). But we're not going to do that as long as theists insist on teaching religion in science class (intelligent design), or to hold back social equality for all (gay marriage, for instance), or supporting poor policy and bad policymakers (like the current US President, who got elected based on religious support, or Mike Huckabee, who only had religious support).

You rightly and correctly point out that there are good Christians, and bad Christians. Near as I can tell, there is very little practical difference between a good Christian and a good atheist. The difference between a bad Christian, however, is substantially different from a bad atheist. A bad Christian has a tool with which to suspend scepticism in his followers: the Bible. A bad atheist has no such ready-made tool.

In most cases where the leader of a terrible social movement was atheist, the leader exploited other conditions, such as national pride or a foundering economy. These are points where people irrationally set aside scepticism, as well -- "You can't talk bad about the President in a time of war," is a phrase I heard often for saying that Bush was killing our troops by taking them into a war based on lies; and in the case of a foundering economy, people are willing to do anything so they don't have to eat bowls of reconstituted mud yet again.

Anyway, I guess all I'm getting at is this: we have the same goals, you and I. Neither wishes to see humanity "fall," whatever that might mean. The difference is, I see religion has been an enabler of stupidity. I'm not saying that everyone who believes or has faith is stupid. I'm just saying, it's given a whole lot of people "comfort," but that comfort is blind and willfull ignorance.

As ignorance is a shackle to progress, I see that as a very bad thing.

I could list reasons all day I suppose, but here's just one more:  http://www.wkrg.com/news/article/praying_at_the_pump/13252/

Praying is a waste of time.  Praying is something that people do when they don't want to take responsibility for their own life, their own actions and their own situation and want to blame things on "it wasn't in the cards" or "god has a different plan" or whatever else that keeps poor and dumb people, poor and dumb.

Praying for lower gas prices?   You could be contributing toward the science that lets us use less of it.  You could be investing in the oil companies so that when gas prices go up, you make more money to offset what you're paying at the pump.   You could be out campaigning for alternate fuels or developing products that reduce our oil consumption.

No, let's talk to ourselves, wish upon a star that gas prices were lower, and then send out a press release to share this delusion with others.

Why is this scary? How many government officials do you suppose think prayer is the answer to something?  Do you suppose they're praying the national deficit down?  How's that working out for us?

Jman, when was the last time some one tried to kill you for not believing in green irish midgets?

i mean Leprechauns