Question to theists (Are you happy?)

Fanas
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Question to theists (Are you happy?)

A lot of times theists says that they are happier or more comfortable believing in god, that god gives hope and so on.

But the more i try to understand this point of view, the more it looks dull and depressing.

Ok, lets assume that god created universe, and you KNOW (not only believe but know it 100%) that. Let me ask is it comforting knowing that some all mighty god created universe - suddenly all answers are answered and theres no need to search for truth. You know that you are going to heaven and so on, but your mind is bored, because you know the answer to life, the universe and everything (42 Laughing out loud ). So the point is that the main drive to the point where we are now (curriosity) is left behind.

I just say, that i am much happier believing that death is the end, but still having curriosity, and still awaiting for the answers.

The universe is so great that so simple explanation (god did it) for it would be so depressing that i wouldn't want to live any more.


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Fanas wrote:A lot of times

Fanas wrote:

A lot of times theists says that they are happier or more comfortable believing in god, that god gives hope and so on.

But the more i try to understand this point of view, the more it looks dull and depressing.

Ok, lets assume that god created universe, and you KNOW (not only believe but know it 100%) that. Let me ask is it comforting knowing that some all mighty god created universe - suddenly all answers are answered and theres no need to search for truth. You know that you are going to heaven and so on, but your mind is bored, because you know the answer to life, the universe and everything (42 Laughing out loud ). So the point is that the main drive to the point where we are now (curriosity) is left behind.

I just say, that i am much happier believing that death is the end, but still having curriosity, and still awaiting for the answers.

The universe is so great that so simple explanation (god did it) for it would be so depressing that i wouldn't want to live any more.

That's odd. Can atheism also become a belief based on comfort? I guess it can, based on your experience. That would almost reaffirm the belief of some theists that atheism is a religion.

However, I would venture to say that you believe that merely because you probably started from theism, like most people in our culture do, and moved onto atheism. In other words, we only consider ourselves lucky to be X when we're not Y, anymore, not when the only known choice is X. No one says, "I am so glad that I don't believe in the Invisible Chocolate Fiend because if I did, I would just be so miserable." It seems like the best weapon against religion is religion itself.

That was a bit of "thinking aloud"


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Quote:Can atheism also

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Can atheism also become a belief based on comfort?

I'd suggest that it's more accurate to say that atheism can provide comfort.  I have a hard time imagining someone coming to atheism because of comfort, but I suppose somebody somewhere has.

I get a lot of comfort from a godless universe.  It's a pain in the ass to try to explain evil when there's a god.  It makes perfect sense without one.

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That would almost reaffirm the belief of some theists that atheism is a religion.

Christ on a fucking pogo stick!  Will everyone please review what a religion is?

Quote:
A religion is a set of beliefs and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.

Quote:

1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7.religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8.Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.

Feeling comforted by a belief that there is no god is not a religion.  It does not even remotely fit any of these definitions.  Do you see atheists getting together practicing rituals about feeling comforted by no god?  Ever been to an atheist's house where they had a "I feel comfortable" ceremony before dinner?  Ever seen atheists holding hands in a meditation circle chanting about how comforted they feel by there being no god?

Quote:
However, I would venture to say that you believe that merely because you probably started from theism, like most people in our culture do, and moved onto atheism.

Everyone who has ever been born was born an atheist.  Until someone teaches you about religion, you are an atheist.

Quote:
In other words, we only consider ourselves lucky to be X when we're not Y, anymore, not when the only known choice is X. No one says, "I am so glad that I don't believe in the Invisible Chocolate Fiend because if I did, I would just be so miserable." It seems like the best weapon against religion is religion itself.

I think you might have something here.  Ex-theists are probably more aware of their luck, or intellect, or whatever got them out of theism.  However, I don't think you can draw a particular correlation between getting out of religion:happiness level, and never being theist:happiness level.  There are a lot of ex-theists who are very angry and bitter, and wish they'd never been indoctrinated.

Quote:
That was a bit of "thinking aloud"

Pardon my crankiness.  The religion bit is a pet peeve of mine.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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I'm in complete agreement

I'm in complete agreement with you. However, I was expressing the belief of some theists that atheism is somehow a religion and thinking that if we say we're comforted by atheism, they might think that makes them right.

Also, I don't think it matters whether we're born atheists or Muslim (like Muslims believe.) The fact is that most people are raised theists and, therefore, most atheists probably started out as theists.


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Quote:Also, I don't think it

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Also, I don't think it matters whether we're born atheists or Muslim (like Muslims believe.) The fact is that most people are raised theists and, therefore, most atheists probably started out as theists.

There are kids who never buy it, but practice religion until they're old enough to tell their parents to stuff it.  I know a couple of people like this.  That's why I think the distinction is important.

Some kids are naturally very smart critical thinkers, and they never buy into Santa or Jesus, or only buy in for a very short time.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Hambydammit

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Also, I don't think it matters whether we're born atheists or Muslim (like Muslims believe.) The fact is that most people are raised theists and, therefore, most atheists probably started out as theists.

There are kids who never buy it, but practice religion until they're old enough to tell their parents to stuff it.  I know a couple of people like this.  That's why I think the distinction is important.

Some kids are naturally very smart critical thinkers, and they never buy into Santa or Jesus, or only buy in for a very short time.

 

I was one of those kids. Santa....Really? A fairy that gives me money when I leave a tooth...Really? I didn't have to endure Sunday after Sunday of church...the parents tried that and when I asked questions they stopped taking us.

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The thing is, theists are

The thing is, theists are not one hundred percent sure.That's why they can be, and often are,sad. Let's face it, I don't think you can really be that sure of something with no proof, now matter how hard to try tell yourself otherwise. If theists really did know that everything they claim will definetley happen, they should be a happier bunch than they are. Maybe that's just my logical thinking getting in the way though.

I would say atheists are happier than theists. Call it my personal bias, but I'll try explain.Alot of the theists I know are unhappy a significant amount of time. Now everyone gets depressed, I think the difference is theists will rely on god to remove it, which never happens.They then wonder why they aren't getting happier, leading to a vicious circle.

I recently had a personal revelation-I am happy and content. In the months following my deconversion, I was pretty miserable and confused.Almost a year after that, something else happened that made me that way again. I am at last now content, I feel that my life is mostly how I want it. There is a general sense of peace knowing that I am in control of it and I don't have to worry about vindictive gods.

I would honestly say I think of theists as generally more unhappy, stressed people.Again, maybe personal bias.

On the OP's point, yes,despite what Comfort says atheism is not intellectual suicide. I know many people who are content to say god did it and never learn, but for others there is a problem. Remember the story of the scientist in The God Delusion who had to choice between his faith and love of science. In that case, knowing all the 'answers' didn't seem to make him happy. Atheism challenges you to strive and improve, to never cease learning. Theism challenges no one.

 

 

 

 

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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I've known many theists who

I've known many theists who are quietly accepting a life they don't like because they believe that's what god wants them to do.  The most obvious example would be people who go to the "Pray Away the Gay" camps.  They're gay, but they get married and do their best to have sex with someone they're not attracted to, ignoring the people who might be able to have a happy relationship with them.

It gets a lot more subtle than that, though.  Think of all the theists who won't see an R rated movie, or won't go to a bar, or won't go to parties where people will be drinking.  All of those things are a lot of fun, but instead of doing things they'd like if they tried, many theists sit at home and read inspirational books.

I'm not suggesting that everybody ought to be a partying lush.  It's not for everybody.  I'm just saying that the world is a great big place full of fun things to do, many of which involve things that go against the considerable list of "Thou Shalt Not's" in the bible.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Hambydammit wrote: It gets

Hambydammit wrote:

 

It gets a lot more subtle than that, though.  Think of all the theists who won't see an R rated movie, or won't go to a bar, or won't go to parties where people will be drinking.  All of those things are a lot of fun, but instead of doing things they'd like if they tried, many theists sit at home and read inspirational books.

You have to wonder how powerful this relationship of their's is if a movie with some swearings going to get god pissed off with them. It doesn't take a genius to figure a party is more fun than church, consequently they're scared to do anything that would make them see what their life's like.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Hambydammit wrote:It gets a

Hambydammit wrote:

It gets a lot more subtle than that, though.  Think of all the theists who won't see an R rated movie, or won't go to a bar, or won't go to parties where people will be drinking.  All of those things are a lot of fun, but instead of doing things they'd like if they tried, many theists sit at home and read inspirational books.

I'm not suggesting that everybody ought to be a partying lush.  It's not for everybody.  I'm just saying that the world is a great big place full of fun things to do, many of which involve things that go against the considerable list of "Thou Shalt Not's" in the bible.

 

I have never believed in god, but my parents sent me to this weekly 'religous school', I guess they just wanted to expose me to it all so I could make my own decision, because they're atheists aswell. But this place basically tried to brainwash a bunch of kids. We use to sing songs about jesus and god. I was young at the time and I thought it was all so stupid, makes it hard for me to contemplate how anyone, especially adults can actually believe any of that crap.

I met a person at university recently who is a 'devout' christian. He just finished school last year and he still hasnt even tasted alcohol. It just boggles the mind. I could understand if he tried it and didn't like it, but he won't even do that. Every saturday night he must just sit at home to attend church the next morning, and so while hes waking up to attend church, I'm just getting home from a huge night out. Now I don't go out every weekend, because that is just insanely expensive, but I know that doing nothing on a saturday night is easily one of the most depressing things there is, and waking up early on a sunday.. errkk

 

 

 

He was one of those men who think that the world can be saved by writing a pamphlet. - Benjamin Disraeli


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In general I'm very

In general I'm very unhappy.  I don't think it has much to do with my opinion on God, though. 


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jmm wrote:In general I'm

jmm wrote:

In general I'm very unhappy.  I don't think it has much to do with my opinion on God, though. 

That's a good point. I'm not sure "happy" is a good descriptor of anything anyway.

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sandwiches wrote:Fanas

sandwiches wrote:

Fanas wrote:

A lot of times theists says that they are happier or more comfortable believing in god, that god gives hope and so on.

But the more i try to understand this point of view, the more it looks dull and depressing.

Ok, lets assume that god created universe, and you KNOW (not only believe but know it 100%) that. Let me ask is it comforting knowing that some all mighty god created universe - suddenly all answers are answered and theres no need to search for truth. You know that you are going to heaven and so on, but your mind is bored, because you know the answer to life, the universe and everything (42 Laughing out loud ). So the point is that the main drive to the point where we are now (curriosity) is left behind.

I just say, that i am much happier believing that death is the end, but still having curriosity, and still awaiting for the answers.

The universe is so great that so simple explanation (god did it) for it would be so depressing that i wouldn't want to live any more.

That's odd. Can atheism also become a belief based on comfort? I guess it can, based on your experience. That would almost reaffirm the belief of some theists that atheism is a religion.

However, I would venture to say that you believe that merely because you probably started from theism, like most people in our culture do, and moved onto atheism. In other words, we only consider ourselves lucky to be X when we're not Y, anymore, not when the only known choice is X. No one says, "I am so glad that I don't believe in the Invisible Chocolate Fiend because if I did, I would just be so miserable." It seems like the best weapon against religion is religion itself.

That was a bit of "thinking aloud"

You understnad me wrong. I chose atheism not because it comforts me, but because its the truth, but also it seems that it also comforts me more than those bullshit stories.


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Most studies done find that

Most studies done find that theists are often happier than atheists. However, I wonder if the people reporting are being honest to themselves when they say they are Very Happy as opposed to just Moderately Happy. Religion does give comfort to millions of people there is no doubt about that, however, it must be really disappointing to pray for something so hard to only get denied. I think this is an example where atheism has a distinct advantage over religion.

Honestly, I find no comfort in any of the "revealed" religions on any level. I would be extremely unhappy if I felt it necessary to worship a deity such as the christian god only to save my immortal soul from hell.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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Quote:Most studies done find

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Most studies done find that theists are often happier than atheists.

I've yet to see one of these studies with adequate controls and a representative sampling.  I'm not arguing the point, since I just admitted I don't have any studies I trust, but anecdotally, I find this very hard to believe.  Sure, I've known a few grumpy atheists, but for the most part, all the atheists I know are very happy people.

The number one bias, I suspect, is self identification as an atheist.  Many people who would put themselves down as "non-religious" wouldn't use the word atheist.  That also goes for "spiritual but not religious."  The people most likely to admit to atheism are the ones who are accustomed to being outside of the norm.  These are also, IMO, the people who are most likely to be unhappy about it.  The atheists who never mention their beliefs just sort of blend into the background.

Having said all of that, relative happiness is very hard to accurately gauge.  There is no universal scale, so studies from different countries or demographics or even from different decades are not easily cross-correlated.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Even if they could prove

Even if they could prove theists were happier, I agree with Bertrand Russel that that is no more valid than pointing out that a drunk man is happier than a sober man.

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quote

MattShizzle wrote:

Even if they could prove theists were happier, I agree with Bertrand Russel that that is no more valid than pointing out that a drunk man is happier than a sober man.

  And when the drunk sobers up he/she realizes how short term and delusional that happiness was.  So to with with Theists,  ask any ex-theist on this web site.

  Has for me,  my realisim came early in life,  I had less to be embarrased about. Gifts from Santa written in my mother's hand writting was a dead give away.

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Fanas wrote:A lot of times

Fanas wrote:

A lot of times theists says that they are happier or more comfortable believing in god, that god gives hope and so on.

But the more i try to understand this point of view, the more it looks dull and depressing.

Ok, lets assume that god created universe, and you KNOW (not only believe but know it 100%) that. Let me ask is it comforting knowing that some all mighty god created universe - suddenly all answers are answered and theres no need to search for truth. You know that you are going to heaven and so on, but your mind is bored, because you know the answer to life, the universe and everything (42 Laughing out loud ). So the point is that the main drive to the point where we are now (curriosity) is left behind.

I just say, that i am much happier believing that death is the end, but still having curriosity, and still awaiting for the answers.

The universe is so great that so simple explanation (god did it) for it would be so depressing that i wouldn't want to live any more.

Based on your belief, your search for truth will be nothing more than an exercise in futility because your eternal fate is simply to cease to exist. 

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Paisley wrote:Based on your

Paisley wrote:

Based on your belief, your search for truth will be nothing more than an exercise in futility because your eternal fate is simply to cease to exist. 

Holy shit, Paisley. And atheists get a bad rap for being downers.

Are you now going to tell us how we can gain our supernatural salvation by psychic slavery?

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"Based on your belief, your

"Based on your belief, your search for truth will be nothing more than an exercise in futility because your eternal fate is simply to cease to exist."

It's not futile. The destination is not important, it is the journey.

That is the point. You only have one life, live it in reality and don't waste it being scared about what happens when you are gone. 

Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.

Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51


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I think that following or

I think that following or subscribing to a religion simply because it makes you happy is misguided.  That may sound a little messed up on my part, especially since I'm theologically a very liberal Christian, but I think that while happiness can certainly be achieved through the practice of religion that happiness is a much more concrete and tangible thing than religion ever could be.

I personally tend to associate God and religion with fear, trembling, anxiety, and those sorts of things.  Perhaps I've read Heidegger and Kierkegaard one too many times.   


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Quote:I personally tend to

Quote:
I personally tend to associate God and religion with fear, trembling, anxiety, and those sorts of things.  Perhaps I've read Heidegger and Kierkegaard one too many times.

Or, it could be that you're just slightly more insightful than most theists, and not as insightful as atheists.  You understand theism, but you don't reject it.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Hambydammit wrote:Quote:I

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:
I personally tend to associate God and religion with fear, trembling, anxiety, and those sorts of things.  Perhaps I've read Heidegger and Kierkegaard one too many times.

Or, it could be that you're just slightly more insightful than most theists, and not as insightful as atheists.  You understand theism, but you don't reject it.

 

I don't think that's a fair characterization.  I mean, it's not as though all people have to achieve a specific level of insight before they can shed theism and become atheists.  Some theists are insightful, some aren't--and the same goes for atheists.  It's not like all atheists are particularly "insightful"--some are just as blissfully ignorant in their beliefs as theists are.  So this idea that all atheists have achieve some sort of requisite level of insight seems to fall apart really fast. 

How would you even measure insight?  Level of knowledge?  Honesty?  It's just too slippery a concept to define quantitatively or objectively.  It seems as though an insightful person is one whose beliefs mirror yours, and a non-insightful person is one whose beliefs deviate from yours.  Sorry man, I've encountered that before, and I don't buy it. 

I'm no genius, but I'm no dummy either--I've considered the very same evidence that you have in arriving at my belief system.  I have no doubt that I've chewed on most (if not all) of the proofs for God's non-existence that you have, yet I've arrived at a different (tentative) conclusion. 

I think the difference between you and me is not a difference of insight, but rather this:  I quite enjoy reconciling my logical self with absurdity and illogic, and you don't.  I don't think that makes either of us right or wrong necessarily, just different in some respects. 

 


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sandwiches wrote:Also, I

sandwiches wrote:
Also, I don't think it matters whether we're born atheists or Muslim (like Muslims believe.) The fact is that most people are raised theists and, therefore, most atheists probably started out as theists.

I would argue that children are naturally disposed to things spiritual.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Paisley wrote:I would argue

Paisley wrote:
I would argue that children are naturally disposed to things spiritual.

You mean how they tend to have imaginary friends? I'm inclined to agree.


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jmm wrote:I personally tend

jmm wrote:
I personally tend to associate God and religion with fear, trembling, anxiety, and those sorts of things.  Perhaps I've read Heidegger and Kierkegaard one too many times. 

That's one aspect and probably accounts for those forms of atheism which are reactionary. However, there's another aspect.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18
 

 

 

 

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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jmm wrote: It's not like

jmm wrote:

 It's not like all atheists are particularly "insightful"--some are just as blissfully ignorant in their beliefs as theists are. 

What?Firstly,wwhat beliefs? How can someone be ignorant in disbeleief? Theists can be ignorant about their beliefs,since they generally should know rules,scriptures etc. But atheists don't have to study anything for their nonbelief.(Though of casue mot do,and  I would encourage it) There's nothing to really know about it.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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jmm wrote:In general I'm

jmm wrote:

In general I'm very unhappy.  I don't think it has much to do with my opinion on God, though. 

I am desperately unhappy but it originates from a genetic cause and is very much a part of my family history.  As such I was an unhappy Christian theist ( for over twenty years ) and now I'm an unhappy atheist 

To me this indicates that some negative mental states transcend theological viewpoints. 

 

To any theists who would  argue the point, I also have personal knowledge of a dedicated Christian from my ( former ) church who committed suicide after suffering a crippling spinal injury.  Faith was not a very effective shield against depression in his case. Despite his faith in God he became overwhelmed and consequently acted upon his despair.

 

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an occasional assassination." Voltaire ( 1694-1778 )


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I can relate

I can relate ProzacDeathWish.

Though it's something I never mention, my mother has bipolar and chronic depression.She is also a very commited fundy.She's often been suicidal,and frankly,crazy. I can't help but wonder where this incredible happiness and purpose christianity apparently brings is. Doesn't seem to be any loving inluence there.

And theists,dont try make it into'you're mad at god for this.' It had nothing to do with my deconversion, and I only thought of it recently. I was too blinded by faith before to even think of it.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Loc wrote:jmm wrote: It's

Loc wrote:

jmm wrote:

 It's not like all atheists are particularly "insightful"--some are just as blissfully ignorant in their beliefs as theists are. 

What?Firstly,wwhat beliefs? How can someone be ignorant in disbeleief? Theists can be ignorant about their beliefs,since they generally should know rules,scriptures etc. But atheists don't have to study anything for their nonbelief.(Though of casue mot do,and  I would encourage it) There's nothing to really know about it.

Oh right, I forgot, atheism is the requisite mindset of all human life. 

Come on, get real.  Atheism is a world view just like any other.  And no, I'm not saying it's a religion, because I don't think it is.  But you have your figureheads, your doctrines, and above all a very distinct way of looking at the world.  No one is without a world view, and by extension, a world view involves beliefs.  To be without beliefs is to be without an opinion on the world, and atheists certainly have very concrete opinions concerning the world in general, at least. 

To say that atheism is not a belief is like a Christian saying that Christianity is not a religion.  Yes it is, and yes it is. 


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jmm wrote:Loc wrote:jmm

jmm wrote:

Loc wrote:

jmm wrote:

 It's not like all atheists are particularly "insightful"--some are just as blissfully ignorant in their beliefs as theists are. 

What?Firstly,wwhat beliefs? How can someone be ignorant in disbeleief? Theists can be ignorant about their beliefs,since they generally should know rules,scriptures etc. But atheists don't have to study anything for their nonbelief.(Though of casue mot do,and  I would encourage it) There's nothing to really know about it.

Oh right, I forgot, atheism is the requisite mindset of all human life. 

Come on, get real.  Atheism is a world view just like any other.  And no, I'm not saying it's a religion, because I don't think it is.  But you have your figureheads, your doctrines, and above all a very distinct way of looking at the world.  No one is without a world view, and by extension, a world view involves beliefs.  To be without beliefs is to be without an opinion on the world, and atheists certainly have very concrete opinions concerning the world in general, at least. 

To say that atheism is not a belief is like a Christian saying that Christianity is not a religion.  Yes it is, and yes it is. 

Yes it is belief, but belief <> belief. Belief in god requires a lot more faith than belief that theres no god. So atheism is just the most logical belief.


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jmm wrote:But you have your

jmm wrote:

But you have your figureheads, your doctrines,

Name some? Seriously,not saying you're completley wrong,just want an example.I'm not sure how you mean.

jmm wrote:

To say that atheism is not a belief is like a Christian saying that Christianity is not a religion.  Yes it is, and yes it is. 

Yet I still say it isn't. And since christians say their religon isn't one,I think they're the confused ones.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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jmm wrote:To say that

jmm wrote:

To say that atheism is not a belief is like a Christian saying that Christianity is not a religion.  Yes it is, and yes it is. 

Not believing is a belief?

I've heard this many times and am no longer shocked by the debauchment of theist mind.

 

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Loc wrote:jmm wrote:But you

Loc wrote:

jmm wrote:

But you have your figureheads, your doctrines,

Name some? Seriously,not saying you're completley wrong,just want an example.I'm not sure how you mean.

Figureheads:  Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Chris Hitchens, and Sam Harris. 

Doctrines:  Theistic claims are irrational, theism should be classified as mental illness, man is an essentially rational being, etc., etc...

Loc wrote:
jmm wrote:

To say that atheism is not a belief is like a Christian saying that Christianity is not a religion.  Yes it is, and yes it is. 

Yet I still say it isn't. And since christians say their religon isn't one,I think they're the confused ones.

You say that, but you offer no reason why.  I am a Christian, and I have no problem classifying Christianity as a religion.  The Christians who refuse to classify Christianity as a religion are usually operating under the delusion that their view of the world transcends belief and is simply the absolute, objective truth.  Same goes for atheists who feel as though their view of the world transcends belief--don't kid yourselves.  It's a belief like any other. 

aiia wrote:

jmm wrote:

To say that atheism is not a belief is like a Christian saying that Christianity is not a religion.  Yes it is, and yes it is. 

Not believing is a belief?

I've heard this many times and am no longer shocked by the debauchment of theist mind. 

You can phrase it however you like, you can even play semantics, but yes, atheism is a belief--or , more particularly, atheism is a world view from which beliefs follow. 


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jmm wrote:You can phrase it

jmm wrote:

You can phrase it however you like, you can even play semantics, but yes, atheism is a belief--or , more particularly, atheism is a world view from which beliefs follow. 

What is atheism a belief of?

If you claim smurfs exist, you have the belief, not me.

 

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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jmm wrote:Figureheads: 

jmm wrote:

Figureheads:  Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Chris Hitchens, and Sam Harris. 

I would call them celebreties,not figureheads.Unless every author is now a figurehead of something.

jmm wrote:
Doctrines:  Theistic claims are irrational, theism should be classified as mental illness, man is an essentially rational being, etc., etc...

Those are mostly specific claims of the RRS, not atheism as a whole,since we don't have any central doctrines.

 

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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jmm wrote:Loc wrote:jmm

jmm wrote:

Loc wrote:

jmm wrote:

But you have your figureheads, your doctrines,

Name some? Seriously,not saying you're completley wrong,just want an example.I'm not sure how you mean.

Figureheads:  Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Chris Hitchens, and Sam Harris. 

Doctrines:  Theistic claims are irrational, theism should be classified as mental illness, man is an essentially rational being, etc., etc...

And yet, we're free to ignore those figureheads and the doctrines they put forth. Personally, I find Hitchens to be an insufferable twit, but that's largely because the writings of his that I've most had to deal with are his geopolitical views.

jmm wrote:
Loc wrote:
jmm wrote:

To say that atheism is not a belief is like a Christian saying that Christianity is not a religion.  Yes it is, and yes it is. 

Yet I still say it isn't. And since christians say their religon isn't one,I think they're the confused ones.

You say that, but you offer no reason why.  I am a Christian, and I have no problem classifying Christianity as a religion.  The Christians who refuse to classify Christianity as a religion are usually operating under the delusion that their view of the world transcends belief and is simply the absolute, objective truth.  Same goes for atheists who feel as though their view of the world transcends belief--don't kid yourselves.  It's a belief like any other.

But it doesn't have to be a belief. Active disbelief, the assertion 'there is no God', that's a belief. On the other hand, 'I don't believe in any god(s)' is not a belief, but it is atheism (lack of god-belief). Is there a God, or are there gods? I don't know. But not knowing, I don't have any reason to believe... in either the existence, or nonexistence, of the divine.

jmm wrote:

aiia wrote:

jmm wrote:

To say that atheism is not a belief is like a Christian saying that Christianity is not a religion.  Yes it is, and yes it is. 

Not believing is a belief?

I've heard this many times and am no longer shocked by the debauchment of theist mind. 

You can phrase it however you like, you can even play semantics, but yes, atheism is a belief--or , more particularly, atheism is a world view from which beliefs follow. 

Ah, but what if your world view is "I don't know"? We can never know anything beyond that we exist. All we can do is interact with the universe we perceive, but we can never establish the veracity of those perceptions to the point of investing true confidence in the universe they present to us... or at least, that's what my mind tells me. This, too, could be wrong... and I seem to be ok with that.

Maybe I'm just mad. Eye-wink

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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Figureheads and doctrines?

Figureheads and doctrines? Well, others have already correctly countered this. The other thing is that you are only looking at the atheist organisations like this one that are raising awareness. I was an atheist for about 36 years before I picked up the God Delusion and later found this site. I did not even know that places like this existed, or that there were people speaking up about atheism. My father told me that he did not believe, but that I should read the bible and about all sorts of religions and make up my own mind. My grandparents took me to church a few times. I went on bible camp with one of my friends. I rejected it all as nonsensical by myself and existed without belief in God long before I had heard of any of these people.

"He that feareth is not made in perfect love"..... But God tells us to fear him. It's in the bible. So I guess he didn't make us in perfect love. I, on the other hand do not fear...

 

Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.

Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51


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Quote:I mean, it's not as

Quote:
I mean, it's not as though all people have to achieve a specific level of insight before they can shed theism and become atheists.

I wasn't speaking of all people.  I was speaking of you specifically.  I did make it sound like all atheists are very insightful.  Pardon me.  I should have said, "atheists who reasoned their way out of religion."

Quote:
How would you even measure insight?  Level of knowledge?  Honesty?

Out of all opportunities to assess a situation and make a judgment, how many times does a person perceive things accurately, in spite of emotional or other non-rational obstacles?  The more convoluted a set of data, the more insightful someone is for getting it right.

Quote:
It seems as though an insightful person is one whose beliefs mirror yours, and a non-insightful person is one whose beliefs deviate from yours.  Sorry man, I've encountered that before, and I don't buy it.

When I'm right, yes... it is someone whose beliefs mirror mine.  In this case, I'm right.  When I'm wrong, I'm not being insightful.

Quote:
I'm no genius, but I'm no dummy either--I've considered the very same evidence that you have in arriving at my belief system.  I have no doubt that I've chewed on most (if not all) of the proofs for God's non-existence that you have, yet I've arrived at a different (tentative) conclusion.

You'd think in all this time you would have gotten the basics of the burden of proof.  Odd that you haven't.  To think that you still say things like "proofs for God's non-existence" demonstrates that you might not be as sharp as you think.

Quote:
I quite enjoy reconciling my logical self with absurdity and illogic, and you don't.  I don't think that makes either of us right or wrong necessarily, just different in some respects

Well, yeah... you're wrong in the objective sense.  I don't enjoy reconciling logic with illogic because... duh... that's irrational.  None of your conclusions can be trusted when you do that.  I'd say that's a very objective reason not to do it.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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jmm wrote:Figureheads: 

jmm wrote:
Figureheads:  Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Chris Hitchens, and Sam Harris.

But the culture here is not of their authority to speak for the group. All four have disagreed with one another, and even in disagreement, have met in a group for a video. There's no mechanism of agreeing unconditionally with Hitchens or Dennett, who have quite a lot of the trickster in them. Dawkins is widely regarded as a "nice guy", and my respect for his elucidation of biology can't be overestimated. But if he says something, I don't have to believe it. That's the real difference. He's just a man, and not a representation of something so great that it can't be wrong.

jmm wrote:
Doctrines:  Theistic claims are irrational, theism should be classified as mental illness, man is an essentially rational being, etc., etc...

Heavily wrong on all accounts. Some theistic claims are irrational, theism is debatably a part of a delusional mental process, and man is far from entirely rational.

jmm wrote:
 Same goes for atheists who feel as though their view of the world transcends belief--don't kid yourselves.  It's a belief like any other.

But it's not "like any other". Beliefs can be judged on their merits. Except if they're faith. Faith can't be judged at all, since no evidence is necessary to move it. But atheism is certainly a belief. It's just not faith.

jmm wrote:
You can phrase it however you like, you can even play semantics, but yes, atheism is a belief--or , more particularly, atheism is a world view from which beliefs follow. 

But it is not faith, which is what you imply. "Worldview" is fine, but when viewing the world, gods tend to be missing.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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KSMB wrote:Paisley wrote:I

KSMB wrote:
Paisley wrote:
I would argue that children are naturally disposed to things spiritual.

You mean how they tend to have imaginary friends? I'm inclined to agree.

Your response implies that atheism is something that children learn.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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"G O D is this > < the sum

"G O D is this > < the sum of everything is right there !  FOCUS on IT , I meant think, I meant pluck your eye of reason out, I meant all is ONE ..... geezzz,  fix our words , I laugh, I cry ....  ( excuse me, I meant me, god

"God", as defined in all "religion", is a menace .... a divider , the DEVIL

abcdefg  hijklmnop  qrstuvwxyz  .... now I know my abc 's      1234567890  , got any more ideas ?     

     Don't make work out of it , please please , Work Is the enemy ..... said that prophet, "Bob Black" .....  All for fun  he preached .....   google knows him ,  ....  

    (((( VODKA wisdom , extra smooth Seagram's ,  I love them Russians , them commies     , and the race to the moon, was for what, ENTERTAINMENT ? .....     


pauljohntheskeptic
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Paisley wrote:KSMB

Paisley wrote:

KSMB wrote:
Paisley wrote:
I would argue that children are naturally disposed to things spiritual.

You mean how they tend to have imaginary friends? I'm inclined to agree.

Your response implies that atheism is something that children learn.

Yours indicates you still don't buy theism is taught to a mind that is without god.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.