Oh, they probably are. Don't feel too bad for them though; some of us are being dumped into the lake of fire because God withheld compelling evidence of his existence from us, and as a result we didn't believe in him.

What a joker, eh?

This is the response for when someone doubts the faith because it seems Gawd is unjust.

But then they tell us, we need money for missionaries to send around the world and save those who don't know Christ. Economics trumps everything. So the answer will change depending on this eternal truth only.

In the Biblical view, they were not created in a way that they would never hear about him.  They are living out choices that were made by their ancestors.  It is not the Creators responsibility to come down and correct every mistake that we make.  He has given us that option.  The judge of all the Earth will do what is right.  The ancestors will have a greater degree of accountability, but nowhere does the Bible indicate they, i.e. those living now, will ultimately go the heaven.  If they hear the message of salvation and some receive it, it is better than if the message is never heard and they all are lost.  Those who reject it are justly held to higher degree of accountability.

Knowledge of God is not “born into us”.  It says, “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: “  Rom 1:20 
 

I'm so glad we're letting unverified posts through more often these days.  Every once in a while, it's fun to get out the old "Whippin' Rod of Reason" and lay down a few strap marks.

In the Biblical view, you say?  Which biblical view?  This is truly puzzling, because it's logically impossible.  Ten years after your supposed messiah supposedly rose from the dead, approximately 9/10's of the habitable land on the planet was not even remotely able to hear about your ridiculous little story.  You can't say it wasn't created that way because, well, God created it, didn't he?  Did he mess up?  Or did he mean for it to be that way?

So, when was the cutoff date for when people "should" have heard about Jesus?  A hundred years?  That was, what... 130 CE?  Not much in the way of global commerce then.  What about 500 years?  Marco Polo still hadn't visited the far east.  What about 1000 years?  Nope.  Still, Marco Polo wasn't born.  There was a great big continent called Asia.  Oh, and what about those poor Native Americans?  They had to wait until almost 1500 years later to hear about your all powerful lord and savior.

Are you blaming the Native Americans for choices they made when their ancestors crossed the Bering Strait... thousands of years before there was such a thing as a Hebrew?

Why, yes!  You are!

You, my friend, have some real problems with that thinking cap of yours.

Oh, really?

What was it you called him?  Creator?  So... um... he.... um... what's that word... "created" us.  And he knows everything, right?  Everything about everything?  So, he um... made us exactly how he wanted us to be made, right?

If he made us exactly how he wanted us made, then everything we've done is exactly what he wanted because he knows everything, right?  Since he can do anything he wants, if he created us so that we wouldn't do what he told us to do, then that's what he wanted.  He chose to make us that way, right?  If not, then he screwed up, or is insane.

All Hail the Judge of All the Earth!!  God bless those red skinned savages.  If they didn't like the message mounted on the end of the Europeans' swords, it's their own fault for not having been born European!  God is merciful and just.  Allah be praised.

Oh... wait... you're talking about Yahweh, or Jesus, right?  I forgot, because, you know... that Allah dude promises some nasty shit if you don't believe in him.

So, god punished millions of Native Americans... in hell... the worst possible punishment imaginable... because their ancestors, who also had never heard of Jesus because, well... it was thousands of years ago... did something that he didn't like. That punishment is good, because God made us exactly the way he wanted, and we (we who? ) made a choice  (which choice?  The apple?) that was exactly the choice that God knew we would make a trillion trillion years before he made earth... and so little red skinned babies are in hell, burning and screaming in agony, and in a trillion trillion years, they'll still be there, their little fingers being burned to the bone, over and over, their nerve endings miraculously functioning perfectly at every single second of their existence.  Their whole body is on fire... their hearts and lungs are filled with fire hotter than anything man can imagine.  Searing, blinding, awful pain.

And god loves you.

Blow it out your ass.

You are inexcusably ignorant, and a bigot.

Well thank you for that warm welcome.  It was better than I expected from a hyper religious forum like this one.  The "Whippin' Rod of Reason" must be part of my cure huh?  (Believe in God?  We can fix that.)  I’m glad it wasn’t the “water board of truth”.  It’s not the drowning sensation that gets me; it’s being punched in the stomach when I’m laying flat on my back and can’t breathe.  What could turn your guts inside out more than that?  Ok kidding off.  No really, I’m just glad I started this in the KEWK forum.  Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name.  Oops, that was supposed to be your line wasn’t it? 

It is an interesting way you put that.  He created us so that we could choose to do what He told us, or not to do it.    We have the ability to choose as Adam did.  He did not make us so that we had to make the wrong choice.  Since He knows everything, He knew which way we would go.  We have accountability for our choice but He has responsibility as our creator.   Why create if He is just going to destroy it?  But we have gone against His word so how can we be reconciled with Him?  The wages of sin is death.  So His plan is that He would die in our place and offer us a second chance so to speak.  In effect to be born again. 

Things like God’s foreknowledge, sovereignty and man’s free will are kind of a Gordian knot to theologians.  I have to keep things simple so I fall back to events like the one recorded in Genesis 18.  “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”  If the answer is ‘no’ then most likely we’re all screwed and have no hope.  Same thing if evolution is true.  The only hope for us is that God exists and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

I say the original question about those who die having never heard the Gospel is a good one because I asked a similar one the first time I heard the message of Salvation.  It’s not just Eskimos and remote people of the earth that aren’t reached.  I was 18, living in California, before anybody explained it to me.  Even my best friend, who went to church all the time, when I asked him if I was going hell just said “YES”.  That was the only time we talked about religion.  So I asked, “If the message of salvation is true i.e. there is a god in heaven, men have rebelled and broken his laws, Christ died in our place and that by believing in Him we could be forgiven and receive eternal life and/or/but we go to hell for eternity if for any reason we don’t, if that is true and god also has billions of angels, why doesn’t he send them to tell everybody?”  The answer was that angels are not capable of giving first hand testimony of God’s grace because they have never sinned.

Yes and “He who made kittens, made snakes in the grass”.  Your difficulty believing God’s word is not with me.  I’m not God’s counselor.  I didn’t write the Bible, He did.  So your comment is not directed at me but Him.  That’s not what I consider a rational response. 
I was raised in a truly non-religious home.  Religion of any sort was never discussed.  So the only lens through which I could view the world was the one imposed in the public school i.e. evolution, which I had absolutely discarded as viable, cohesive world view long before ever hearing about Jesus Christ for reasons I will perhaps give later.  When the offer to accept God’s message was given to me, I thought if evolution is by any chance true, and I pray this little prayer with these guys that I had never met before, nor seen since, nothing is of course going to happen and the whole universe will eventually die its cold death and that will be that.  But if they are right and salvation is absolutely free because Christ took the whole penalty for my sin, I’d be a fool not to give it a try.  (I don’t remember if they mentioned anything about repentance, if they did, I didn’t pick up on it.  It was only about a 30 minute conversation and it was all new to me except the part about Adam and Eve, I had heard that story before. )  The result was that shortly after that (about an hour later) God confirmed His word in a way, that to me was real at the time.  It took about three more years to figure out the repentance part, but God is faithful, full of grace and truth and will do what is right whether we can wrap our little finite minds around it or not.

Now that I have mentioned water boarding, I suppose that will come next.
 

Ok so, they made the trek oh 10,000 years ago, or 8000 years before christ....so it's their ancestors fault? Because they decided to move to the isolated world 8000 years before christ and 6000 years before the jews even hear of god?? That's a retarded really, their ancestors are going to be more punished for something they did, thousands and thousands of years before ANYONE would hear of god? Oh boy what a great god, seems kinda retarded to me but hey god is man's creation we can't expect god to make perfect decisions when his creators are imperfect.

I'm sure it was a pleasure.I wonder,why do you call it a religious forum? Unless atheism became a religion in the last 10hours while I wasn't looking.

So are you saying god knows if we will go to hell when we are born and creates some of us for that purpose? You say we have the choice to choice to not do what he told us, but you forget that then he will punish us eternally.

Wait..so if evolution is true the world is doomed, as opposed to if there is a god who will initiate armageddon and destroy the world? Please explain. With evolution, we have hope of colonising other planets, but with god the human race will be destroyed.

You say god wrote the bible.Most of the christians I have seen here say that man wrote it under inspiration,that is why there are errors,mistranslations etc. Are you saying it is perfect?

Because you are a qualified biologist who can with impunity say that evolution is false right? I have no doubt you have dedicated your life to science of all kinds and are therefore the ultiamate authority on whether evolution is true.

/sarcasm

Oh my.This is too good. Could it be another instance of Pascal's Wager..why yes!Plus Argument from personal experience!

You should have said: If there was any chance that this god was the right one, I'd still be a fool to pick it,since I had even more chance of picking the wrong one.

Pascal’s Wager

Premises: You have everything to gain by believing, and everything to lose by not. So why not believe?/What if you’re wrong?

Problem: What if you’re wrong and allah is the true god? Pascal never indicated which god we should believe in. With thousands of them out there, they chances are choosing the right one are slim. If you are a christian and allah is the right choice, you’re going to have a small problem after death. Isn’t it more logical to choose none? It also assumes that god isn’t going to mind you just believing because you don’t want to go to hell, and doesn’t want true followers.

 Argument from personal experience.

Premises: I know god’s real because I’ve felt him! I’ve seen miracles! How do you explain that?

Problem: I know god’s not real because he told me so! See, just you because you say something, don’t make it so. Christians will usually resort to the personal experience argument when all other arguments have dried up, because it is impossible to prove or disprove.  The thing is, many people have had the personal experience of seeing Elvis, getting abducted by aliens, and having the CIA secretly spy on them. Shall we now afford all these claims complete credibility?

As a former Christian, I’ve had personal experiences. However, when you remove the blind faith and indoctrination, you realize they are the product of highly emotional settings, usually combined with peer pressure. Everyone around me is talking in tongues! I better do something. The mind’s capability for imagination is vast, and if you want something to be badly enough, you will likely experience it.

That which can be presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

RtB, you are contradicting every Christian missionary that ever existed. They all tell the heathens they are all lost souls in need of Jesus as Savior and the only way to be saved is believing in him and confessing him as lord. They all claim that every person that accepts the Gospel as truth is saved.

So now, you change the story when someone actually wants to understand rationally how Christian theology works. So, all you are saying is that all missionaries really accomplish is to send some people to hell, for hearing the gospel and rejecting it as BS.

So basically missionary lies about true Christian theology to get people to convert. They are sadistic bastards that will enjoy seeing those who reject their message thrown into the external torture of hell by a loving Gawd.

The bible can't be used as evidence in itself (in relation to the age of the earth or anything else). It is just a book, there is no proof other than in the bible itself (circular argumentation) that it was devinely inspired. If you use books as proof you can prove anything. There are lots of books out there.

I really can't be bothered going into biblical debate yet again at the moment, look up some of Rook's articles.

"Written by humans you say?  What descendent of an animal could ever conceive of such a thing as the Bible?  How did he progress from hunter/food gather to invent language at all, let alone words like repentance, forgiveness, sacrifice, atonement, propitiation?  Where would such concepts enter his mental processes?  There is only one answer – THEY DIDN’T.  They came by revelation from our creator."

You haven't visited the fiction section lately, have you. Humans are very inventive. What descendent of an animal could? Humans (who actually are still animals by the way). Give me a few months and I could come up with something as inventive, crazy and badly written as the bible. Really, if god wrote it I would have thought he would have done a better job.

There is a very good video available called "the history of English" you should watch it, it does not deal with where language come from (there are plenty of books about