Understanding Moderate Religion

Introduction
As some of you will know, although I am an atheist I don't think that theism is necessarily irrational.
I also think that religion is misunderstood in 'militant' atheist circles. (I used 'militant' for want of a better word - you guys know what I mean...)
The common view is that fundamentalism is real religion and that moderatism is simply those who can't bring themselves to fully accept or reject fundamentalist religion so cherry pick as what suits them. I think that this is a narrow view that misunderstands religion.
So now I've made a claim on what religion isn't, I need to now offer a positive account of what religion is and then provide evidence that my account accurately responds to the real life practices of religious people.
Btw, this isn't accusatory in anyway.
I know that people here like and respect moderates in a lot of ways.
As far as I know I see two main reasons why people here feel the need to target moderates too:
1) Intelectual honesty and consistency - even if a moderate's belief is benign, if it's just as unscientifically supported as the fundamentalist then is it right for us to hold double standards for the ones we like over the ones we dislike? If we genuinely think a moderate's belief to be wrong then should we just pat them on the head and let them believe a falsehood? Do we not respect them enough to be capable of critical thinking and wanting to see the truth?
2) Moderatism feeds fundamentalism - even if moderates themselves are benign, their being there feeds fundamentalism. Fundamentalists get away with a lot because their antics are closely related to practices that are more respected. It takes a lot to distance yourself from mainstream beliefs so the survival of a belief system often requires it to share as much as with mainstream as possible. That the mainstream is 'half way' to fundamentalism gives them much more than they want.
I think that my arguments in this topic will provide a genuine answer to the first one and will possibly offer some ideas in the way of the second.
Preliminaries
Before we go on, I just want to make some clarifications on what it is for a belief to be irrational.
A belief irrational if there is some flaw in the reasoning.
Perhaps a subtle fallacy in conclusions drawn or maybe false premise behind it.
This doesn't mean that the person is irrational in believing it - the RRS accept that the theist themselves might be being rational, i.e. reasoning with the best knowledge they have at that time, but the belief itself isn't rational as their reason would reject it if they knew better.
Another point I think needs acknowledging is the 'context' of calling a belief irrational - why we see it as a bad thing.
If you think about the part that beliefs play in our lives, how we will sit down because we believe a chair is below us - an incorrect belief would lead to us falling.
We need beliefs to be accurate for them to have practical purpose in our lives. Reason is our way of making beliefs as accurate as possible, so to have a belief that is irrational is of little use to us and will affect our decision making for the worse.
So because we need a 'belief' to be accurate and reason is the best way to ensure this accuracy, we want our beliefs to be as rational as possible.
In a similar way, an action is rational if it reason declares it the best way to achieve the aim that it was supposed to.
The last point I want to make is one about language.
Language is a very diverse thing and this can lead to all sorts of philosophical confusions.
I'm sure you're all familiar with the fallacy of equivocation - it's when we confuse that the same word can mean two different things.
e.g. A bank is a good place to put money and a bank is on the edge of a river so I should throw my money into the river.
That one was pretty obvious - it's the more subtle ones that cause the real confusion.
Wittgenstein liked to use the word 'game' as an example.
He claimed that the various uses of the word game were related in various ways but were also subtly different.
He claimed that whatever 'essence' of 'definition' you tried to tie down to the word 'game' you could find a game out there that was counter example.
In a similar way, I think that our real world usage of the word 'belief' doesn't quite reduce to the way we were using it above.
Although belief as something that needs to be accurate for practical purposes is a common way we use 'belief', it is not the only way we use that word.
I think that 'religious belief' is subtly different to 'practical belief'.
Not completely different - they will be closely related and the differences will be subtle.
However, the differences will be enough to make a difference on how they ought to be evaluated and thereby leave them different on how they should be judged to be 'rational' or not. With that, I am ready to finally put forward my hypothesis on what religious belief is.
The Hypothesis - Religious belief is subtly different to practical belief and these differences warrant a difference in evaluation.
If I am saying that religious belief is to be evaluated differently to practical belief then I need to claim that they have different purposes.
Practical belief has the obvious practical usage - if we want to eat an Orange then we need to know where to find an orange and that our beliefs on where to find an orange will determine our success or failure in this.
My claim is that religious belief has a different purpose. Rather than instant practical use, the value of religious belief is the way it affects our outlook on the world.
That is, the psychological effect that these 'articles of faith' have on our life in general.
So for a religious belief to be valuable/commendable it would have to:
a) Have a positive effect on our life - particularly in our morality and personal meaning and happiness.
b) NOT interfere with our practical rationality - i.e. not contradict our scientific knowledge.
Bear in mind that other than this difference in justification/application, this belief would be pretty much the same.
It would be psychologically similar, 'feel' similar, so if you'd ask someone if <insert religious claim> really happened then they'd say yes.
The only difference would be that they wouldn't "feel right" about applying religious doctrine practically in the same way we do with other beliefs and justify these beliefs by the effect that it has on their life.
My belief that this is the natural state of religion and that literalists on both sides have misunderstood it, both by assuming that religious belief and practical belief are the same thing.
One dismisses religious belief for not holding to the standards of practical belief, the other bastardizes their practical belief in an attempt to unify both together.
(While I both think they've misunderstood religion to the same degree, I think that the dismissal of religion is much less severe than trying to unify them.)
Having said that, while I think that there is argument for moderate religion being natural religion and fundamentalism being the perversion, I'll leave that for another topic as I think there's enough to debate here as it is. For now I'll just settle for the fact that religion/theism can be 'not irrational'.
Notice that I've said 'not irrational' rather than 'rational'.
If religious practice is a different practice to normal belief to be valued in a different way then it's quite likely that the evaluation would be different too.
Rather than rational or irrational, I think that religion is a-rational and would be valued as more 'good/bad' or 'humanitarian/inhuman' rather than 'correct/incorrect' or 'rational/irrational'.
The consequence of this hypothesis would be that there's such thing as 'religious belief' where:
a) The 'beliefs' are like normal belief except do not have direct practical application.
(Any good religion should have clauses like "Thou shalt not put the lord to the test" or "The lord works in mysterious ways" or "God is ultimately beyond man's expectations/understanding"
b) The religious belief is to be justified by the positive effect on the person and people.
("Before I accepted Jesus into my life... blah blah blah..." - well, you might not find this convincing but atleast they're arguing for the right thing!
)
c) Although they often take care to make sure that there is no direct contradiction between their religious beliefs and practical ones, they don't feel the need to scientifically justify their religious beliefs.
(Hence the employment of 'faith' and the 'God of Gaps')
My argument is simply that moderate religion be judged by it's effect on the person.
There could easily be a counter argument in the form of "But religion is bad for the person psychologically/spiritually/socially too because..." which is fair enough - the only conclusion I am trying to settle here is that moderate religion is to be judged by its effect on the person rather than how well it matches scientific fact. I consider it still possible that even moderate religion might fall flat in the face of this kind of judgement too, but I'd be surprised.
Evidence that moderate religion really is like this and that I'm not merely projecting how I'd like it to be.
So how would I go about providing evidence that religion is 'this way' rather than 'that way'?
I've made two claims about moderates regarding their religious belief, that they don't treat it like practical knowledge and that they justify it by the effect that it has on their lives.
I can justify this by picking out typical behaviours and phrases that we expect from them and show that they fit my theory.
Evidence that moderates don't treat articles of faith like practical knowledge
First see if you can even get out of them a belief that has practical application.
I mean, they do base practices on their religion but not with direct consequences.
The religious practice is justified as a whole for other reasons.
In the meantime, individual beliefs do not have individual applications.
My belief in gravity means that I would happily bet my entire life savings that if I was to hold a plastic ball (you're not going to hustle me with magnets here!
) in the air and let go then it would drop to the ground. Do the moderates have any religious beliefs that they could base bets on in the same way?
A lot of Catholics believe that the bread and wine is transformed into the body and blood of Christ - see what response you get if you ask them what affect eating human flesh and blood has on their diet, and if they happen to be vegetarian then do they pass by the Eucharist?
If you were to ever make the claim "If Christianity was true then God would X and Y - after all, that's the character of the God described!" then they are likely to say that "Religion doesn't work like that", or "You're missing the point" or "The lord works in mysterious ways" or "It's not your place to understand God's plan, just trust."
Are these actions and phrases common to the moderates you're familiar with?
Do you disagree that they are characteristics of moderates or do you disagree that they fit my theory?
Evidence that moderates justify their beliefs on their effect rather than their scientific accuracy/certainty
It's often been said that the rationality that they apply to the other areas of their life seem to bypass the moderate's treatment of religion.
What's more, they vigourously argue that it's just not appropiate, often trying to point out other areas in our life where we don't feel the need to be scientific.
They are fond of the 'God of Gaps' (both unsupported and uncontradicted by science)
Even where contradictions appear between their scientific and religious beliefs, they try to brush them aside as if they didn't matter.
They clearly see their religiousness as a-scientific, living out the NOMA split as described by Gould.
So what happens when you ask them why they believe?
They will talk about morality and meaning.
They will talk about what religion does for them on a daily basis - they clearly draw strength from it.
They often have anecdotes and stories about themselves or friends or even people they've read about.
The stories will often involve a rebellious character who didn't think much to religion, had some problems, accepted religion and that solved them.
They often consider their religion to be an integral part of their moral practice too.
Whether religion really is a help in these things is up for debate - my point is that it's these things that justify or discredit religion.
Another evidence is how they judge differing beliefs.
Moderates tend to be happy that other faiths can lead to God while others who claim to be of the same faith are 'false'.
How do they judge who is close to God and who it not?
Once again it's the character of the believers.
Those religious sects that do bad (e.g. the inquisition, the terrorists, extortionists) etc are those who have lost their way.
(The cheeky bastards even call them atheists!!)
Those of other religions who do good (e.g. peaceful Buddhists) are often seen as being close to God in the eyes of the moderate.
Again, you will have to decide yourselves whether my charitarizing of the moderate fits with your own experience.
I think it's characteristics we're all familiar with, it's just that I'm offering a new interpretation to the data, one that wasn't considered before and one that I personally think fits better.
These examples were the best I could come up with from the top of my head.
The verification/falsification will be a more gradual process.
Now the theory is in your mind, it will subconsciously test it everytime you meet a moderate.
Over time you will gradually get the feeling that the theory fits moderate behaviour or you will find yourself feeling that it doesn't.
(That'll be your subconscious brain functions giving the results of their analysing your experiences)
I'd like to think that means you'll start to agree with me within the year but it's perhaps more likely you'll finally start presenting all those counter examples that your brain has been picking up!! 
I guess time will tell! 
What does this mean for fundamentalism.
There's always been this misconception towards fundamentalists, that they are the ones who follow the Bible properly rather than cherry pick.
Truth is, they cherry pick just as much as moderates do, if not more so.
Or where they don't they're willing to completely contradict themselves.
You see, religious belief can often mean what you want it to mean at that moment in time.
The religious believer's interpretation of their Holy Book will depend on the Zeitegeist of their time and place.
Fundamentalists do this to a higher degree than anyone.
God is the most loving, caring and understanding when they're trying sell him to people and then turns into a wrathful monster who dishes out eternal damnation when they want to scare you into obedience.
They know the absolute truth about things when they're feeling assertive and want to tell you that X is sinful and that Y actually happened but will declare God beyond all understanding when pressed to give a rational justification for their beliefs.
In the same way, they will play the "This is the hard truth - not what you want God to be..." when arguing with moderates and then pull out the "You rationalists want to take all the mystery of life and turn love and feeling into some mathematical equation" when the sceptics start challenging them on the facts.
They are happy to flip from one to another depending on who they are debating.
I don't think that many people change their mind on a major issue from a single argument.
A single argument might be the final straw the triggers the change in mind but more often than not it takes a several points to be on the back of the mind before the person is open to change. After all, if our idea only has a couple of slight problems we see them as something we can work around, that answers will come to.
Some changes will come around through attacking the purely unscientifficness of religious belief, but I don't think that it will get very far on its own.
After all, when you consider the reasons why people have faith, scientific fact is irrelevent.
Apologetics has never converted anyone, merely helped people who were attracted to the lifestyle of religion and were hoping for a way to find a loophole in their scientific knowledge.
(Is it a coincidence that Strobel found the Christian arguments more convincing after he admired the personality changes in his wife?)
If we want to attack fundamentalism then we want to attack it from all sides at once.
"My beliefs are on faith, on hope and love" is presented as an excuse to dismiss sceptical criticism, perhaps just the day after they used "You can't just believe what you want" to dismiss the humanitarian appeals of moderates.
That's why I see moderates as an ally against fundamentalism rather than a cover for it.
Fundies can only use moderates as cover where the sceptic's remarks affect moderates.
If we were to work with moderates to bring forward the ideal anti-fundy arguments, ones that targeted objective claims while accepting the validity of personal faith, fundamentalism would have no cover at all.
Not that we wouldn't have disagreement and debate with moderates too, just that would be a leisurely topic to debate for fun, rather than one that our politics and future critically hangs on.
Anysway, here's my theory of moderate religion.
Thoughts?






























Glad to see something new from you, Strafio!
This is not my contention. I hold that fundamentalism and moderation are two degrees of the exact same thing. All theism accepts the premise that things which are false according to materialism are true. The only difference between moderates and fundamentalists is how many irrational beliefs they hold.
Psst... "A belief is irrational."
[/editor hat OFF]
For the sake of simplicity, this is true, but it's not exactly complete. I'll hold off for a bit though.
I maintain that one of the reasons all religion should be attacked is that indoctrination into the notion that "faith is a virtue" at a young age can permanently diminish a person's ability to think rationally. There are many people who do know better and still believe. Had they been introduced to the idea after being taught good thinking skills at a very young age, they would immediately dismiss it.
(EDITOR CHECK!!!)
I don't necessarily claim this as universally true. It's splitting hairs a bit, but here's an example. Last week, I went on vacation. While I was gone, I drank constantly, ate as much as I wanted, and indulged in as much junk food as I wanted. I got precious little sleep, and I spent most of next month's spending money. My behavior was not rational by very many standards, and yet, because I am human, it was good for me. Yes, we can make a case for my behavior being rational because it had good results, but that's the point I'm making. Rational and irrational are often dependent on an arbitrary measuring stick. For the goal of good health, my behavior was objectively irrational. For the goal of financial gain, clearly and objectively irrational. For mental health? Very rational.
So, there are two ways in which the words rational and irrational can be used. One is objective. Believing that all traffic lights are figments of your imagination is irrational. Period. Traffic lights obviously exist, and there is no practical way of making that belief rational. Vegetarianism, on the other hand, is both rational and irrational, and it is mainly a matter of personal values whether an individual's vegetarianism is rational or irrational. If someone is vegetarian because they believe the government has introduced poison into all meat because they're trying to kill us all, their vegetarianism is irrational. If they feel better on a vegetarian diet, it's rational.
You know my "Special Pleading" trigger finger is itchy.
Dangerous proposition. If I am a sadist, inflicting great pain on others brings me personal meaning and happiness. I'd like to see you expand this just a bit.
I see you running into some serious issues with this proposition. I hope you've been following my writing about morality, primarily my contention that it is relative but not arbitrary.
You realize that for this to occur, this religion is going to have to have virtually no meaning whatsoever. By definition, the belief that a god influences the world in any way whatsoever does interfere with our practical rationality.
I'm responding as I read. I hope you're going to justify this division, because I can't.
Special pleading.
The existence of another system in which to examine religion does not negate its existence as rational or irrational. If I say that oranges and asparagus are nothing alike because one's a fruit and the other's a vegetable, that doesn't take away the fact that they are both foods that people eat. If you are to have us believe that we should not apply the rational/irrational label to moderate theism, you're going to have to do more than say that there's another way we can look at it if we choose.
Well, if you choose to judge moderate religion only by its effect on the individual, that is your prerogative. I think it's awfully shortsighted, since individuals get together in groups, and groups have effects on other groups. I don't think I see any rational justification for excluding religion (SPECIAL PLEADING!) from the same kind of scrutiny we give to any other kind of belief.
Yes.
I agree that moderates would not bet a lot of money on god, and that they tend not to let their religious beliefs get in the way of most practical activities. I disagree that this is evidence that their religious belief doesn't effect their practical life in any meaningful way. What you're doing is equivalent to telling me there are no marbles in a box, and then one by one, taking quarters out of the box and saying, "See, this isn't a marble!"
These are all exactly the same answers that a fundamentalist would give.
Same with fundamentalists.
Same with fundamentalists.
I hate to tell you, but it's not going to take me a year to come up with counter examples.
You've just admitted my contention. Fundamentalism and moderation are two degrees of the same thing.
I don't completely agree. Children pick up religious faith because they are not presented with the alternative. Rational adults who have been taught good thinking skills don't often turn to religion for the reasons religious people say they believe. Once someone has grown up in an atheist world, they don't often feel the "innate longing for a god" that religious people claim everyone has.
Scientific fact is very relevant to people's belief. Otherwise, why would highly schooled scientists be the least likely people to be religious?
A bold claim.
You mean... like the whole justification for believing a religion? That some things are proven by faith alone?
I'm not being flippant when I say this. You give this a try. Go to all the moderate churches, and see if you can get them to mount a targeted attack against fundamentalists. Good luck. When you get back, I have a few windmills you can tilt.
This is precisely why I maintain that we must attack all theism equally. Moderates, if they have any brains at all, know that they cannot attack fundamentalists on any purely rational grounds. They are left only with appeals to emotion.
Well, not to be harsh, but I don't see anything new in this. It appears to me that your argument goes something like this:
1) Moderates are different than fundamentalists because moderates don't believe *really* wacky stuff, and they live normal lives, and religion makes them feel good. (What do you call this fallacy? You're creating a difference in kind when it's really a difference in degree.)
2) Religion should not be judged by rational/irrational criteria because moderates don't take their religion very seriously. (Special pleading)
3) Some moderate beliefs don't let their beliefs affect X, Y, Z behaviors. Therefore, moderates don't let religion affect their behaviors. (Just plain goofy.)
4) Moderates ought to help us fight fundamentalists. (Good luck.)
If superior creatures from space ever visit earth, the first question they will ask, in order to assess the level of our civilization, is: 'Have they discovered evolution yet?' -- Richard Dawkins
Thanks for your posts. Religion is like bad medicine. It may get a desperate moderate back on their feet but the side effects aren't good, which includes support to the fundys.
All religion needs to be permanently recalled and replaced with rational wisdom and options. That is indeed an on going big task, but do able. Fix our religiously biased media and government. Care and bitch a little LOUDER, wake up the neighbors. Appeasing is not healing .... Go atheists .... RRS
Humm, atheist story Jesus tried to smash the church temple .... Sheezzz, that was 2000 yrs ago .... and the church is still a huge menace. What to do ....
Good to see my work still interests you enough to reply!
I think that spreading the argument over an entire post perhaps made it unclear of my exact argument.
What I'll do is start with a sumarised version of the argument.
Then I'll pick up on some of the points you made and answer them.
I'll be leaving out all the various points you made on practical reason and morality etc.
This is because I don't really disagree with you and you seemed to be picking out niggly details that I didn't spell out.
The reason I didn't feel the need to fill in details was because we mostly think alike on these issues so I didn't need to argue what you already agreed with.
The best thing to do would be to give me 'the benefit of the doubt' - that is; given that I've admitted that I more or less agree with you on these issues, interpret it in a way that would make the most sense to you and that will be most likely what I am trying to say.
If we come across something we actually disagree on then we'll pick up debate there.
That's cool. Tell is how you see it else I'll never know where I'm going wrong.
Now I'll try and lay out the argument that I was trying to put forward:
Premise 1 - The diversity of language
I take this to be a fact about our language nature.
Other than words like river-bank/money-bank with obvious equivocations, there are more subtle ones too.
"I believe there's a chair in front of me"
"I believe in democracy"
"I can't believe you sometimes!!!"
We use the word 'believe' in a lot of ways that are related but still have subtle differences.
Nothing too controversial so far, right?
Hypothesis 1.1 - Belief in the 'religious' context is subtly different to belief in the 'scientific' context.
After the first premise, this is no ad hoc measure.
If we take that 'belief' can have a variety of subtly different meanings, it should be no surprise that these two different contexts hold examples.
Nevertheless, that's not enough to assert that there is a difference.
This is why it's a hypothesis - one that needs to be vindicated or falsified by evidence.
So now I put foward which characteristics differ and then compare it with people's behaviour in real life.
If their use of the word 'belief' matches then they are providing evidence towards my hypothesis.
Hypothesis 1.2 - There are two main differences between them - the practical application and justification
So here I set out the characteristics that we are looking for when we take the behaviour of people into account.
If I read you right, you agreed with my observations on religious behaviour and you agreed that they fitted the theory.
If I understood you, I think your complaint was that my theory wasn't the only one that fit the data, that the "delusion" theory fits too.
So I'd need to provide further arguments in order to place my "different practice" theory over the "delusion" theory.
I'll talk more on this subject later.
So my theory of religious belief isn't an ad hoc measure, it's an argued hypothesis on human practice/behaviour.
(I wanted to say "well argued hypothesis" but I thought that I'd let you be the judge of that!
Now, for sake of argument, let's say that my hypothesis was correct - would I then be able to provide an argument that moderatism isn't irrational?
This means that we start with a new premise:
Premise 2 - Religious belief and scientific belief are subtly different practices with different applications.
I perhaps made a mistake in using the word 'practical' in the OP as that means more than I meant it to.
This time I've gone with scientific I think it'll give a clearer picture of what I mean.
Scientific propositions about the state of the world are ones that we base our action on.
For example, "There is a chair behind me" is a proposition that will determine whether I sit down or not.
Religious belief does have practical application - it is supposed to inspire the person's morality and spirituality etc.
This is a different kind of practical application to scientific belief though.
The accuracy of whether there is really a chair behind me doesn't really matter in the religious context - we don't have that kind of direct application.
Religious beliefs have the same kind of applications as morals and values do so.
Premise 3 - An evaluation of a sentence/proposition depends on its purpose/application.
This should be fairly common sense.
Scientific claims are judged by how well they are supported by evidence.
Fictional stories might be judged by how entertaining they are (or atleast how they affect the listener)
Jokes will be judged on how funny they are and things like wit.
We judge them based on what they are supposed to do and are supposed to be.
A proposition with the application of 'character' building will be judged on the effect that it has on the person.
If the hypothesis above holds then the 'articles of faith' within a religious/spiritual worldview are applied to improve 'character' of the believer.
That means that this is how it is to be judged.
Religious beliefs that improve 'character' of the person are judged to be good, ones have bad effects are to be judged bad and neutral ones to be neutral.
Premise 4 - Propositions of theism tend to occur in a religious/spiritual context.
I don't think you'll find this controversial, especially in the modern world.
I don't think that anyone's motivation for believing in a God for scientific reasons, not in the modern world anyhow.
Conclusion - Theism is arational rather than rational/irrational. Its value should be determined by it's psychological effect.
This conclusion should quite clearly follow from the premises.
I'm expecting objection to be to the premises rather than the inference.
If theism is a religious belief and religious beliefs are to be judged by their effect then it logically follows that theism should be too.
As far as I can see, theism itself won't have a particular effect - it will depend on the characteristics of the particular theistic God in question.
This leads me to believe that theologies should be judged case by case rather than all theism discredited.
So that's my argument broken down into logical steps.
The conclusion that the scientific justification of God isn't necessary to justify religious belief, that it is to be judged by the impact on the believer, and that impact would depend on the theology attached to this God. I can't imagine any effects that would be apply whatever the characteristics of the God.
This attacks a particular kind of theology rather than religion in general.
My argument is that the system of evaluation that is appropiate depends on the characteristics of what is being evaluated.
I never said we had to purely judge individual beliefs.
Obviously group-held beliefs can be criticised in the same way.
My argument only makes claims about what kind of criticisms are appropiate.
Not really...
I'm showing a trend within theistic practice using examples.
Yes, it's not an absolute proof and it will leave me vulnerable to counter examples, but until these counter examples appear I think I atleast have the 'presumption'.
(Is that the right wording? I mean to say I have enough for the burden of proof to be on someone to find a marble in the box.)
Here is where I'll discuss the difference between moderatism and fundamentalism.
Both have the same religion at heart, just that fundamentalists clash their religion with secular knowledge and sometimes even common sense!
Moderates have implicitly recognised the value in religion.
In recognising what religion is for they recognise where it doesn't belong.
When they are telling stories they are telling stories.
When they are joking they are joking.
When they are being scientific they are being scientific, and when they are being religious they are being religious.
Furthermore, they place more emphasis on their religion incorporating common sense values wheras the fundamentalist will take their values more on doctrine.
Yes, but to you that 'same' thing is the number of irrational 'scientific beliefs'.
The way I see it, moderates enjoy their religious practice to a healthy moderate degree.
Fundamentalists abuse religion and apply it where it shouldn't be applied.
What I mean is that scientific belief doesn't fullfill the function the spiritual belief does.
Acceptance of religion and spirituality depends a lot on the aesthetics and the aesthetics of someone who deals a lot in scientific fact is perhaps more likely to find religion to be less appealing. They will find something else to fit these 'human needs' that people fill with religion.
There maybe a couple of counter examples out there but I'd be surprised if it didn't atleast hold as a strong rule of thumb.
If superior creatures from space ever visit earth, the first question they will ask, in order to assess the level of our civilization, is: 'Have they discovered evolution yet?' -- Richard Dawkins
Sorry for formatting problems in that last post. I don't know why all of my formatting disappeared.
If superior creatures from space ever visit earth, the first question they will ask, in order to assess the level of our civilization, is: 'Have they discovered evolution yet?' -- Richard Dawkins
You can't call 'special pleading' on a hypothesis!!
Special pleading is when you make an exception without justification.
If I put a distinction forward as a hypothesis it can't be special pleading as it is pending evidence for justification/falsification.
Right...
I think I can see where I've been misunderstood now.
I really am claiming that the word belief means a different thing in the religious context to the scientific context.
In both cases it describes a behaviour/practice which are very similar to each other with 2 exceptions - how the person applies the 'proposition' that they believe and how the person justifies it.
Unless you understood this, none of what followed made any sense whatsoever.
Before you read it again, forget that I'm comparing moderates and fundamentalists for now.
I'm just making a claim that the words 'religious belief' and 'scientific belief' refer to two slightly differing practices/behaviours and hence should be treated differently.
We'll leave fundamentalists out of this until we've atleast got the basics to my argument settled.
There is two things I wanted to point out though:
If you read what came before it:
I probably didn't make it clear but premise 2 was there if we hypothetically took the hypothesis as being verified.
Inspire and explain are two very different words for a very good reason.
Yes, scientific facts are good for explanation.
Perhaps you have the belief that explanation is all a person's psyche needs in order to do the right thing well?
If you don't (and I'm sure you don't!!) then you should agree that there's more to doing good than just having the right beliefs - you need psychological motivation, the will power etc, things that inspiration boosts.
So close...
... but yet so far!!
It looks like we'll have to debate this argument step by step.
It seems that the first premise got by you okay.
We'll work on hypothesis 1.1 and 1.2 next.
Given that I've explained that my claim is the word belief means a subtly different thing in religious and scientific context, I'd like to see what you make of it now.
(I'm not expecting to completely prove them but so long as we're clear on what the hypothesis states and what kind of evidence would confirm this, that would be enough to carry on the debate is. So we could leave the truth of the hypothesis as pending evidence but debate as to what the consequences would be if the evidence was to favour it.)
Ok... solid point. I call "Unsupported hypothesis!"
I understand this. I just don't buy it because it sounds like part of an argument (not a hypothesis) that relies on special pleading:
1) Belief is different for theists. (Unsupported hypothesis)
2) Therefore, we should treat religion differently than anything else in regard to its rationality. (Special pleading)
Belief is belief. Practice is practice. I get what you're saying. Religious people practice things that sometimes work out pretty well, and sometimes make them feel good. These practices are done because of their belief in a particular religion. Therefore, there is a rationally justifiable reason to say that their behavior is rational.
I'm ok with that. However, they still do some things that are irrational because of their particular theistic belief, unless of course their belief has literally no effect on their behavior whatsoever, in which case, we might as well stop talking about this and have a beer. (Or, in the case of their religious belief lining up 100% with rationality, in which case we can't very well call it a religion, so we can still grab that beer.)
How the person applies the proposition that they believe is how much "faith" they put in their belief -- where they fall on the continuum between fundamentalist literalist and moderate figurativist. (If I can coin those terms for the moment.)
How a person justifies it is either by faith or reason. If faith, then it is irrational. If reason, it is either valid or invalid.
I understand the claim. I disagree completely with your "slightly differing" hypothesis. Yes, I get that moderates treat religion as a much more cultural and social thing than a strict description of truth. We already have a way to describe that without saying that it's a different class of belief. We say, "Moderates treat religion as a much more cultural and social thing than a strict description of truth." Once we've done that, we can look at what the social practices are and evaluate them against their effectiveness in promoting happiness and societal well being. No need to invent new classifications just because it's religious in nature.
Yep. I understand that. You proposed a slightly different definition, but then you don't say what it is. Without so much as a "By your leave," you then start looking for evidence that your undefined definition exists.
Poor hypothesizing, if you ask me.
1) "Believe" means something different only when applied to religious moderates.
2) See, they don't behave like fundies.
3) Therefore, I'm right about the definition.
Feh...
No, I have the belief that a person's genes contain a blueprint for basic morality, and humans will naturally adopt a version of it consistent with the prevailing beliefs, both scientific and religious.
You seem to be falling into a trap that theists often lay. They claim that people are either not smart enough, or not moral enough to be moral without some other motivation, or some mythology to explain it to them. I see no evidence of this, since all societies have had some system of morality, whether they were religious or not. Morality, it has been demonstrated, is not usually a matter of reason. It's a matter of "gut feelings" -- feelings we have because natural selection has honed us into a species that very closely follows a modified tit-for-tat game strategy, and emotions are the most cost-effective way for our genes to enforce behaviors.
To be specific, I don't think people need an explanation or a mythology. They will behave morally because it is human nature to do so.
We have these things built into our genes. When we behave morally, we are rewarded socially. We like getting those rewards, so we are inspired to do them again. The will power comes from the simple fact that acting morally is usually in our best interest.
I think science clearly demonstrates that people are mostly inherently good. Even the cruelest of despots in history, if you cataloged every act they ever did, from the mundane to the immense, would be shown to have acted within social convention (morally) virtually all the time. We take notice of the gross exceptions, and so they seem dominant. Think about this for a second, and you will see the truth of it.
I'd like specific definitions of each application of the word.
If superior creatures from space ever visit earth, the first question they will ask, in order to assess the level of our civilization, is: 'Have they discovered evolution yet?' -- Richard Dawkins