The Democratic Campaign

Theia
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The Democratic Campaign

Anyone else here besides me disappointed Hillary won PA yesterday? It's not that I hate Hillary. I don't particularly like her but it's not that. I just want the campaign to end. It just seems to be dragging on painfully. And even though I think Hillary might be more qualified to be president than Obama I'd rather have Obama win the nominatin because I really don't want McCain to win (he's just 4 more years of Bush, as far as I'm concerned) and I think Obama has a better chance of beating McCain. Surveys have shown there is more sexism than racism in this country so I think Hillary has less chance of beating McCain. Why is there more sexism than racism? Because of stupid f***ing religion! I've heard women Democratics say they can't vote for Hillary because the Bible says a man must lead! A woman cannot be a leader in their backwards little minds, even if she has the qualifications. It's not surprising to hear that from men but to hear that from women is just f'd up. So if Hillary wins the nomination I won't be feeling very hopeful for a Democratic win in Nov. Oh, I hope, I hope I'm wrong! But I'll be a lot more worried.

"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher


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Quote:So if Hillary wins the

Quote:

So if Hillary wins the nomination I won't be feeling very hopeful for a Democratic win in Nov.

 

How could she win if nobody votes for her, since they 'don't think a woman can lead'? For that matter why is she even doing so well?

 

 

 

On any note, U.S is  fucked whether McCain, Obama, or Clinton win. But they can't possibly be worse than Bush.

 

I personally hope for McCain, lesser of the three evils, but I'm Canadian, so it doesn't really matter.

 

 

 


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She's doing well? She's not

She's doing well? She's not doing that well. Obama's still ahead. And she's competing with a black man so I think she's only hanging in at all because of the racism in this country. If she had been competing against a white male candidate she probably would have lost by now. And how can you say McCain is the lesser evil of the three when he's basically another Bush (although maybe not quite as stupid)?

"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher


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Theia wrote:If she had

Theia wrote:

If she had been competing against a white male candidate she probably would have lost by now.

 

She was. Most of them dropped out since Clinton/Obama beat them.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edwards

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Gravel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Kucinich


 

Quote:

And how can you say McCain is the lesser evil of the three when he's basically another Bush (although maybe not quite as stupid)?

 

Who the fuck is McCain? Oh yeah!!  I never hear about him since Obama/Clinton are always hogging the media. Why are they getting so much media attention?


 

However, I haven't really been following the campaign all that closely. So if I could find a reasonable reason to vote for Clinton or Obama, besides ' if you don't you're a racist/sexist!' than, I'll change my mind and would prefer Obama/Clinton. Oh wait, I can't vote.

 

Actually on second thought. I don't like anyone. But if I had to choose though, it would be McCain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Mathematically impossible

Its pretty much over, she has to win all of the next primaries with like an 80% margin then get a majority of the super delegates. The math on this has been done to death on the 24hr news shows, and it is pretty much mathematically impossible for her to win more delegates, which means they would have to rely on the super delegates(party insiders) to decide the election. I would expect nothing less from a politician trying to gain the most powerful position in the world. She is going to try to win by constantly reframing what winning means, by calling super delegatesautomatic delegates(very undemocratic), saying popular votes in states where the election wasn't sanctioned(Florida and Michigan) count and matter, and by going negative on him constantly. This is politics. To think the left is much better than the right when it comes to maintaining and increasing their power is to fundamentally misunderstand those who crave power.

If Obama wins the delegate count and Hillary wins the nomination due to the super delegates there is going to be a huge percentage of the electorate that thinks that the democrats elect people undemocratically. This is the hypocrisy they preached about with the Republican/Diebold 2000 Florida elections and 2004 Ohio black voter disenfranchisement. The bottom line is that she should step down if she truly cared about maintaining a healthy democracy, but that is not as important as securing her position as president. It is her right to run, and a large part of the blame should fall on the undemocratic rules the democratic party's national committee has placed in picking their presidential nominees(super delegates) and the nominee process(caucases vs primary and not letting Florida and Michigan have any impact in the process).

That being said, hopefully I can vote for Obama in November, but if not I will pick the lesser of two evils just like every other time I step in the voting box.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda


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McCain is a WAR man.  

McCain is a WAR man.   "War Quotes",

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=War+Quotes&btnG=Search

   100's of Billions of $ sending 'Love Bombs' instead ? ...... why not ? One world military keeping the peace ? ...... why not ?  

   The world is wacko. Counties are like prisons. Why so ?    

   Who is proud ?   Google "patriotism quotes" 

"Patriotism ... is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that robs man of his self-respect and dignity, and increases his arrogance and conceit." Emma Goldman

"Some men see things as they are and say, "Why?" I dream of things that never were and say, "Why not?"  George Shaw

"In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell."  H. C. Mencken

   Might as well call this the Dark Ages, the elections are a smoke screen, but I do vote .... wish all would pay attention and get pissed .... what a bummer. WAKE UP the sleeping neighbors !  Change the world ? .... why not ?

 


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If there is anything the

If there is anything the Democrats are good at, it's sabotaging themselves. Somehow, against all odds, they'll find a way to lose. I'm not optimistic about the next election, to say the least, even though I typically go 3rd party; the cynic in me is calling it for McCaine now.

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 Difficult one to call. I

 Difficult one to call. I don't know if the states is in enough of a recession yet to vote Democrat (as seems to have been the case for the last 100 years).

Also, why has nobody mentioned Margaret Thatcher? That bitch could lead. (And I mean that with equal parts terror, admiration and distaste). She was like the queen to the SAS. I'm told she would initiate new staff workers by taking them to SAS live fire exercises and volunteer herself and her staff as the hostages.

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So, here it is another

So, here it is another voting Tues and one win for Clinton, one for Obama. Ugh. Why does it feel like this campaign is dragging on forever?

Anyway, I was talking to someone the other day about all this. He said this whole campaign is rigged by the Republicans. His theory is that Republicans have been voting in the Democratic primaries since the beginning in order to ensure that only the 2 least likely candidates make it to Nov. This is supposedly why Edwards and the others fell out so early. The idea is to make sure only one of the "losers" compete against McCain in Nov because there's no way in Hell this country is going to elect a woman or a black man over a white male, Republican or not. So with either Hillory or Obama running in Nov McCain is sure to win.

I'm a bit skeptical. But after watching the show, Hacking Democracy, I find it amazing we're still using Diebold voting machines. So I suppose anything's possible.

What do you think? Is this whole thing rigged by the Republicans? Or is that just conspiracy theory paranoia?

"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher


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Until the system is fixed,

Until the system is fixed, voting 3rd party is like giving your vote to your "worst" choice. That is a big reason we ended up with devil Bush fuck head ....   Fix the system , include a first, second, even third choice ..... read up on it .... don't waste your vote.

And no more Electoral College .....    


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Theia wrote:So, here it is

Theia wrote:

So, here it is another voting Tues and one win for Clinton, one for Obama. Ugh. Why does it feel like this campaign is dragging on forever?

Anyway, I was talking to someone the other day about all this. He said this whole campaign is rigged by the Republicans. His theory is that Republicans have been voting in the Democratic primaries since the beginning in order to ensure that only the 2 least likely candidates make it to Nov. This is supposedly why Edwards and the others fell out so early. The idea is to make sure only one of the "losers" compete against McCain in Nov because there's no way in Hell this country is going to elect a woman or a black man over a white male, Republican or not. So with either Hillory or Obama running in Nov McCain is sure to win.

I'm a bit skeptical. But after watching the show, Hacking Democracy, I find it amazing we're still using Diebold voting machines. So I suppose anything's possible.

What do you think? Is this whole thing rigged by the Republicans? Or is that just conspiracy theory paranoia?

 

Your friend is an idiot, Clinton had been the frontrunner for a year and a half before the election, and Barack had been christened the new face of the party when he spoke at the 2004 DNC convention for Kerry. Rush limbaugh's operation chaos is designed to draw out the convention to hurt the chances of the dems to effectively combat Mccain in the general election. That is a conspiracy theory what your friend is saying about Edwards and others dropping out, they couldn't garner support in the primaries. Republican operatives will try to encourage their voters to elect the person whom they feel is easiest to beat(Hillary primarily because of a large base of hatred towards the Clintons) and also instill a sense of chaos by using loopholes in the system to drag on the process and have the democratic party coalesce around a clear nominee and create their general election messaging campaign. As for Diebold, the 2006 elections seemed to work fine, but yes, having a voting system created by a company with close Republican ties, that produces no traceable record, and has been verifiably hacked to produce false results....is totally antithetical to the concept of democracy. That being said, this election is the Democrats to lose, and if no foul play in voting machines is involved, they have no one to blame, but themselves if they lose.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda


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Yup,  "Operation Chaos"  

Yup,  "Operation Chaos"

   Greed and power is a contagious rampant disease, because stupidity rules.

Lower the voting age to age 13 ..... ?   Yeah, fuck yeah .... Get the kids involved .... What the kids want,  I want !        

 


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Please tell me this isn't

Please tell me this isn't true, that these voters are just venting their frustrations when they say they won't vote for the other Dem.

"Exit polls out of West Virginia indicate only 36 percent of Clinton's supporters would vote for Obama if he were the nominee. A bare majority of Obama's voters said they would vote for Clinton over McCain."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/14/clinton/index.html

That's not the first time I've read that supporters of one Dem candidate would jump ship to the Republican side if their candidate didn't win. I just find that so hard to believe. Obama and Clinton are really not that different in their ideas and neither candidate is that hateable, IMO. I'd prefer Obama win the nomination but I can assure you that if Clinton wins there is no way in Hell I'm voting for McCain instead of Clinton. I don't need 4 more years of another Bush-tard.

"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher


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Since I live in Florida

Since I live in Florida which is apparently no longer part of the United States at least as far as Howard Dean is concerned it really doesn't matter what I think or vote. Dean has no clue how pissed off Florida Dems are but he'll find out if the Florida delegates aren't seated at the convention. I've heard more than enough about how we broke the rules, blah, blah. My state senator from Orlando is a convicted felon who is still serving in the state senate. My state representative is a Republican. The State Democratic Committee did all they could to stop the change, they lost, we get screwed. Howard Dean can go blow himself. The DNC is starting to sound like Venezuela and Chavez. Regardless who wins in your 48 state America it is the first time since the Civil War that states have been denied participation in the electoral process. I thought we fought a war about representative government once, have you all forgot. No representation for Florida and Michigan means the Dems have a tainted candidate from 48 states. So much for freedoms.

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pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Since I live in Florida which is apparently no longer part of the United States at least as far as Howard Dean is concerned it really doesn't matter what I think or vote. Dean has no clue how pissed off Florida Dems are but he'll find out if the Florida delegates aren't seated at the convention. I've heard more than enough about how we broke the rules, blah, blah. My state senator from Orlando is a convicted felon who is still serving in the state senate.

I'm sorry, but you have nobody to blame for this but yourselves and the representatives you elected. The rules were CLEAR, and the representatives you elected chose to defy them anyway and had the gall to be upset when said rules were actually enforced. You should be outraged, but not at Obama, not at Dean, but at your elected officials and since you elected them, yourselves.

I am sick of the mindset this sort of bitching is indicative of - that we deserve a do over or some sort of bail out when the rules we all agreed to actually get enforced.

It's the same logic that has our Congress bailing out Airlines and banks over and over again. The same logic that has pro-athletes renegotiating contracts when they are STILL under contract. The same logic that will have us bailing out homeowners, those who go bankrupt again and again, and who were irresponsible and bought houses they clearly could not afford. Nobody seems to ever be held accountable for their fuck up anymore, and that is part of the reason I think this country is in such a mess.

Put it this way, I make a good living, I'm not in debt, but as a single young professional, I realized I COULD NOT afford a subprime mortgage or ANY mortgage on a decent home in my area at this time. Millions of others didn't realize that. They bought things they could not afford (and yes, the lenders are partly at fault for giving out money like candy, but if I could realize it was a raw deal, they could have too). And so what do I get for being RESPONSIBLE?

I get a whopping $600 of my OWN money back, and the government will inevitably bail out many of those who acted irresponsibly - which I will certainly end up paying for.

This is WRONG. Actions have consequences, they NEED to have consequences, else what is the point of having contracts or rules and acting responsibly? As it stands, I'm going to get FUCKED for being responsible, for not buying things I cannot afford.

No more "do-overs" when the contract YOU AGREED TO actually gets enforced.

Sorry.

 

 

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Yellow_Number_Five wrote:I'm

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

I'm sorry, but you have nobody to blame for this but yourselves and the representatives you elected.

I have to disagree with you there. That's like saying I have no right to bitch about the fact that President Bush is ruining our country just because he's my president. Well, guess what. I didn't vote for that ass hole either time. As individuals we don't always get the representatives we want, and even if we do, they don't always do what we want them to. We have the right to bitch when they fuck up, to make them accountable for their poor judgment on decisions we trusted them with. That's how things get changed. I'm sure many people didn't know their representatives were going to violate the election rules when they elected them. Come on, to say you deserve what screw-ups your politicians make is nonsense. They often lie to get elected. We never know what they're going to do once in office. And often we have no one good to choose, anyway. How is that one individual's fault? You act like everyone knows what screw-ups their represntatives are going to make and chose to go with it anyway. But if we could predict what they were going to do once elected do you really think Bush would have been elected a second term? Considering his current approval rating, I doubt it.

In the case with Florida I agree there should be consequences but it's those in charge who violated the rules who should be punished, not the individual voters.

 

"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher


Yellow_Number_Five
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Theia

Theia wrote:

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

I'm sorry, but you have nobody to blame for this but yourselves and the representatives you elected.

I have to disagree with you there. That's like saying I have no right to bitch about the fact that President Bush is ruining our country just because he's my president. Well, guess what. I didn't vote for that ass hole either time. As individuals we don't always get the representatives we want, and even if we do, they don't always do what we want them to.

Bad analogy.

Look at what Florida did: KNOWING full well they could face sanctions on both the Democratic and Republican sides, the legislature still choose to go forward and move up their primary in order to get more attention for the state.

The CONSEQUENCES WERE KNOWN, they went forth anyway, because at the time they didn't think it would matter and would get them a bit of that press attention usually reserved for New Hampshire.

These were the elected officials of the people of Florida, and they didn't do this is secrecy. The people of Florida COULD have protested, but they didn't, because they didn't think it would be important at the time either.

Now that it is important, they want to disregard clear rules and warnings that were given to them prior to these actions. Fuck that.

Here's a story from 2007 that spells it out plainly:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/04/us/politics/04florida.html

 

from the article:

Quote:

Both parties have been trying to put a halt to the leapfrogging. They have said they would penalize all but a handful of states if they hold a primary before Feb. 5, stripping them of half their delegates to the national nominating conventions. Under Democratic Party rules, the candidates can also be penalized, losing the delegates they won in the rule-breaking state.

But Florida officials scoffed at those threats, calling the conventions little more than a formality.

“We have people who get invited to a big party where they drop a balloon and people wear funny hats,” said Marco Rubio, speaker of the State House of Representatives. “But they don’t have any role to play.”

“At the end of the day,” said Mr. Rubio, a Republican, “the truth of the matter is that the nominee of either party is going to want to make sure they have not offended the big donors and the biggest activists in the most important state in the country that is electorally available.”

Their intentions, motivation, lack of respect for the clear rules and warning is evident.

It's a shame their elected officials fucked them like that, and an shame nobody in Florida spoke up while they were being fucked, but hey, at the time, nobody thought they were being fucked. Then they want a do-over after that bites them in the ass? Are you kidding me?

 

Quote:
We have the right to bitch when they fuck up, to make them accountable for their poor judgment on decisions we trusted them with. That's how things get changed. I'm sure many people didn't know their representatives were going to violate the election rules when they elected them. Come on, to say you deserve what screw-ups your politicians make is nonsense. They often lie to get elected. We never know what they're going to do once in office. And often we have no one good to choose, anyway. How is that one individual's fault? You act like everyone knows what screw-ups their represntatives are going to make and chose to go with it anyway. But if we could predict what they were going to do once elected do you really think Bush would have been elected a second term? Considering his current approval rating, I doubt it.

Personally, I keep up on state and federal legislature weekly, if not daily, and write probably 15 letters a year to my representatives. I think everyone should do the same, and if they don't care enough to do the same, they've little recourse but to whine about it - which they do and have every right to do.

So, yes, boo-hoo, Florida, I understand why you're pissed. Suck it up and deal with it, because it happened on your watch. Vote the silly fucks who moved your primary out of office next time around - you should. In the mean time, deal with the consequences like adults.

Quote:
In the case with Florida I agree there should be consequences but it's those in charge who violated the rules who should be punished, not the individual voters.

 

How do you sanction the representatives without sanctions the voters when the rules stipulate EXACTLY that?

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pauljohntheskeptic
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Yellow_Number_Five wrote:I'm

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

I'm sorry, but you have nobody to blame for this but yourselves and the representatives you elected. The rules were CLEAR, and the representatives you elected chose to defy them anyway and had the gall to be upset when said rules were actually enforced. You should be outraged, but not at Obama, not at Dean, but at your elected officials and since you elected them, yourselves.

I am sick of the mindset this sort of bitching is indicative of - that we deserve a do over or some sort of bail out when the rules we all agreed to actually get enforced.

 

Actually, I don't have myself to blame for this particular fuck up. I didn't elect the Republican that voted for it nor the felon state senator. Yeah, I was pissed they did it. I'm not pissed at Obama or Clinton but the DNC, Dean, and the Florida legislature. Payback will come. I don't have myself to blame for the 8 years of Bush and his war that is destroying the US economy either, I voted for the guy who won in 2000. Yeah, I know a Florida county fucked that up too.

I'm not asking for a do over just follow the rules equally. See Equal protection laws, it applies to a group of citizens as well.

http://www.democracyfornewhampshire.com/node/view/5465

 

It seems you ignore as does the DNC and the mainstream media that other states other than Florida and Michigan violated the same DNC rule 11A.

Quote:
We already know that Florida and Michigan violated Rule 11.A. by moving their primaries to a date before the first Tuesday in February. There is no argument there, but what about Iowa, New Hampshire, and yes, South Carolina too.

Rule 11.A specifically set the date for the primaries & caucuses for those three states as "no earlier than 22 days before the first Tuesday in February" (Iowa), "no earlier than 14 days before the first Tuesday in February" (New Hampshire), and "no earlier than 7 days before the first Tuesday in February" (South Carolina).
Iowa held their caucuses on January 3rd. That's more than 22 days before the first Tuesday in February. New Hampshire held their primary on January 8th. That's more than 17 days before the first Tuesday in February. And South Carolina held their primary on January 26th. That's more than 7 days before the first Tuesday in February.

Under Rule 11.A., five states were in violation of the Democratic National Committee's Delegate Selection Rules, and as such, all five states should have been punished under Rule 20.C.1.a.

Since in its great wisdom only 2 states are being punished the DNC is violating the equal protection clause of the Constitution.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/17/attorney.dnc/index.html

If Florida and Michigan are punished then also New Hampshire, Iowa, and South Carolina must be subject to the same punishment. If any one state is allowed to violate this section then all should be allowed.

It seems the US is fine with disenfranchising its own citizens but bitches over election irregularities everywhere else. Please tell me how the 4th largest state (Florida) and the 8th (Michigan) are to be ignored and the 48 state candidate will be put on their ballots this fall by the others is not fascist? If this was a 3rd world country you'd probably see that it is like the old communist party in the USSR picking the candidate for the ballots. Please explain why the other states get to break the DNC rules and Florida and Michigan do not. If this is arbitrary then how is that not discriminatory and violating equal protection laws.

As to the DNC rules on this subject: See Rule 21

Quote:
21. State Legislative Changes
A. Subject to Rule 18.C. of these Rules, wherever any part of any section contained in these rules conflicts with existing state laws, the state party shall take provable positive steps to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the provisions of these rules.

B Provable positive steps shall be taken in a timely fashion and shall include: the drafting of corrective legislation; public endorsement by the state party of such legislation; efforts to educate the public on the need for such legislation; active support for the legislation by the state party lobbying state legislators, other public officials, Party officials and Party members; and encouraging consideration of the legislation by the appropriate legislative committees and bodies.
C. A state party may be required by a vote of the DNC Executive Committee upon a recommendation of the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee to adopt and implement an alternative Party-run delegate selection system which does not conflict with these rules, regardless of any provable positive steps the state may have taken.
Page.

 

The Florida State Democratic Party followed the DNC rules before and after the state legislature passed the primary change. They opposed the law, proposed alternatives that followed the rules. Yes the legislature passed the change but over objections by the state party.

If you think none of this matters think again, Florida will loom large in the November election and being ignored in the primary process will sink the enthusiasm that was shown here:

http://www.fladems.com/content/w/florida_democratic_turnout_shatters_record

If we don't count in the selection process why should we care who you select to run. It will be a candidate imposed by 48 states on 2 unfairly by discrimination. Penalize all the states that violated the rules or penalize none. If not watch for the eventual outcome of the equal protection lawsuit sometime in 2009.

 

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"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

I'm sorry, but you have nobody to blame for this but yourselves and the representatives you elected. The rules were CLEAR, and the representatives you elected chose to defy them anyway and had the gall to be upset when said rules were actually enforced. You should be outraged, but not at Obama, not at Dean, but at your elected officials and since you elected them, yourselves.

I am sick of the mindset this sort of bitching is indicative of - that we deserve a do over or some sort of bail out when the rules we all agreed to actually get enforced.

 

Actually, I don't have myself to blame for this particular fuck up. I didn't elect the

Republican that voted for it nor the felon state senator.

Right, because only that guy voted for it an no democrats did at all, lol.

Read it:

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId=35049

There were a TOTAL of 3 Nay votes by members of Florida's House and Senate for the bill in three rounds of voting. The bill was nearly unanamously supported by BOTH parties.

Quote:
Yeah, I was pissed they did it. I'm not pissed at Obama or Clinton but the DNC, Dean, and the Florida legislature.

Why be pissed at the DNC? Both the DNC and RNC told Florida EXACTLY what would happen if they moved the primary, the Florida legislators simply didn't think the rule would be enforced or matter. Don't forget the Republicans sanctioned FLA too, cut their delegate weight in half.

Quote:
Payback will come.
Make sure you pay back next time you have a state election - you should essentially be voting out all encumbants.

Quote:
I don't have myself to blame for the 8 years of Bush and his war that is destroying the US economy either, I voted for the guy who won in 2000. Yeah, I know a Florida county fucked that up too.

Irrelevent to this discussion.

Quote:
I'm not asking for a do over just follow the rules equally.

The rules are being followed - both the DNC and RNC have done EXACTLY what they said they would do. If, as a Democrat, you don't like said rules, you should petition your party to change them. Fair warning was given.

Quote:
It seems you ignore as does the DNC and the mainstream media that other states other than Florida and Michigan violated the same DNC rule 11A.

We already know that Florida and Michigan violated Rule 11.A. by moving their primaries to a date before the first Tuesday in February. There is no argument there, but what about Iowa, New Hampshire, and yes, South Carolina too.

 

IMO, all states who violated should get the same treatment. You agree though, that FLA violated the rules, hence, my argument stands. The selective enforcement of the rules is something you should address with the DNC, and not germane to my argument.

As it stands, FLA DID violate the rules, and was warned what would happen if the did.

If you get pulled over for speeding and the guy next to you going just as fast doesn't won't change the fact that you were speeding. End of story.

Quote:
It seems the US is fine with disenfranchising its own citizens but bitches over election irregularities everywhere else. Please tell me how the 4th largest state (Florida) and the 8th (Michigan) are to be ignored and the 48 state candidate will be put on their ballots this fall by the others is not fascist?

That's irrelevent. These are the DNC rules, and even if selectively enforced, they were the agreed upon rules and certain states thought they were above them. Turns out, they aren't. Too bad.

Quote:
Please explain why the other states get to break the DNC rules and Florida and Michigan do not. If this is arbitrary then how is that not discriminatory and violating equal protection laws.

I can't explain why it's not being enforced across the board, but like I said, it doesn't change the facts. Again, you should address this with the DNC.

 

Quote:
The Florida State Democratic Party followed the DNC rules before and after the state legislature passed the primary change. They opposed the law, proposed alternatives that followed the rules. Yes the legislature passed the change but over objections by the state party.

 NO, the FLA dems did NOT oppose the bill, they voted for it in droves, see my link above (it was co-sponsored by about a dozen people and propsed by two as well, several of which I'm sure are Dems), and YES, they DID violate the rules, as you admitted. Like I said, end of story.

Quote:
If you think none of this matters think again, Florida will loom large in the November election and being ignored in the primary process will sink the enthusiasm that was shown here:

http://www.fladems.com/content/w/florida_democratic_turnout_shatters_record

If we don't count in the selection process why should we care who you select to run. It will be a candidate imposed by 48 states on 2 unfairly by discrimination. Penalize all the states that violated the rules or penalize none. If not watch for the eventual outcome of the equal protection lawsuit sometime in 2009.

Oh, I KNOW it matters. Like I said in my first post in this thread, the Dems always seem to find a way to shoot themselves in the foot.

 

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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pauljohntheskeptic
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 Yellow_Number_Five

 

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

I'm sorry, but you have nobody to blame for this but yourselves and the representatives you elected. The rules were CLEAR, and the representatives you elected chose to defy them anyway and had the gall to be upset when said rules were actually enforced. You should be outraged, but not at Obama, not at Dean, but at your elected officials and since you elected them, yourselves.

I am sick of the mindset this sort of bitching is indicative of - that we deserve a do over or some sort of bail out when the rules we all agreed to actually get enforced.

 

Actually, I don't have myself to blame for this particular fuck up. I didn't elect the

Republican that voted for it nor the felon state senator.

Right, because only that guy voted for it an no democrats did at all, lol.

Read it:

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId=35049

There were a TOTAL of 3 Nay votes by members of Florida's House and Senate for the bill in three rounds of voting. The bill was nearly unanamously supported by BOTH parties.

 

I already knew this. Your statement was that I had no one else to blame but myself and as I said I did not vote for the legislators from my district that voted for the bill, so you're wrong where you placed the blame. To be correct you should not have said you, instead more appropriately it might be your elected representatives.

You should also look at what was contained in HB 537 before you condemn the Dems for voting yes. It included a paper trail in event the electronic voting process fails again as in the Sarasota area where a Republican won because the machines were programmed in a bizarre way. It was a multifaceted omnibus bill and they needed most of it. That was their logic anyway. I would have voted no and put the Republicans against the wall.

 

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Quote:
Yeah, I was pissed they did it. I'm not pissed at Obama or Clinton but the DNC, Dean, and the Florida legislature.

Why be pissed at the DNC? Both the DNC and RNC told Florida EXACTLY what would happen if they moved the primary, the Florida legislators simply didn't think the rule would be enforced or matter. Don't forget the Republicans sanctioned FLA too, cut their delegate weight in half.

 

See below. Selective enforcement of the rules is why. Stupidity in isolating Florida and Michigan so they will likely vote for McCain this fall.

 

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Quote:
Payback will come.
Make sure you pay back next time you have a state election - you should essentially be voting out all encumbants.

 

I always try. So I should vote for more religious fanatics to represent me is that what you mean? A choice between evils has been presented how nice. I can vote for Republicans that want to make God and Jesus required for US citizenship or I can vote for weaklings that can't stand up for their constituents. Such a choice.

 

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Quote:
I'm not asking for a do over just follow the rules equally.

The rules are being followed - both the DNC and RNC have done EXACTLY what they said they would do. If, as a Democrat, you don't like said rules, you should petition your party to change them. Fair warning was given.

 

 

No they are not being followed as the other states are not being punished. I don't understand why you think this. Even if guilty the harsh punishment contrived was beyond the prescribed.

 

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Quote:
It seems you ignore as does the DNC and the mainstream media that other states other than Florida and Michigan violated the same DNC rule 11A.

We already know that Florida and Michigan violated Rule 11.A. by moving their primaries to a date before the first Tuesday in February. There is no argument there, but what about Iowa, New Hampshire, and yes, South Carolina too.

 

IMO, all states who violated should get the same treatment. You agree though, that FLA violated the rules, hence, my argument stands. The selective enforcement of the rules is something you should address with the DNC, and not germane to my argument.

As it stands, FLA DID violate the rules, and was warned what would happen if the did.

If you get pulled over for speeding and the guy next to you going just as fast doesn't won't change the fact that you were speeding. End of story.

 

Irrelevant to this discussion.

Poor analogy. A police officer can only pull over one speeder at a time while the DNC is quite capable of punishing all of the states for breaking the rules or ignoring all of them as they did with Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Nevada. It is just a form of suicide the Democrats seem to love. Let's see how we can fuck this up again and give another election away.

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Quote:
Please explain why the other states get to break the DNC rules and Florida and Michigan do not. If this is arbitrary then how is that not discriminatory and violating equal protection laws.

I can't explain why it's not being enforced across the board, but like I said, it doesn't change the facts. Again, you should address this with the DNC.

I have.

 

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Quote:
The Florida State Democratic Party followed the DNC rules before and after the state legislature passed the primary change. They opposed the law, proposed alternatives that followed the rules. Yes the legislature passed the change but over objections by the state party.

 NO, the FLA dems did NOT oppose the bill, they voted for it in droves, see my link above (it was co-sponsored by about a dozen people and propsed by two as well, several of which I'm sure are Dems), and YES, they DID violate the rules, as you admitted. Like I said, end of story.

 

There is a difference between the Florida State Democratic legislators and the Florida State Democratic Party. The DNC rules refer to the State party's actions in opposition not the small powerful subset of legislators. As it stands the state law now does not comply to DNC rules. Considering it hasn't been overturned by the Republican legislature and won't be what do you suggest be done. A little help from the DNC for example might be nice.

 

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Quote:
If you think none of this matters think again, Florida will loom large in the November election and being ignored in the primary process will sink the enthusiasm that was shown here:

http://www.fladems.com/content/w/florida_democratic_turnout_shatters_record

If we don't count in the selection process why should we care who you select to run. It will be a candidate imposed by 48 states on 2 unfairly by discrimination. Penalize all the states that violated the rules or penalize none. If not watch for the eventual outcome of the equal protection lawsuit sometime in 2009.

Oh, I KNOW it matters. Like I said in my first post in this thread, the Dems always seem to find a way to shoot themselves in the foot.

 

 

There lies the problem for me. I was a Republican since voting for Nixon in 1972. Over the years the Republicans lost my support as they became perverted with hypocrisy and religion. During Reagan's years I voted independent in revulsion to the new positions they had taken. After my Congressman Bill McCullum one of the House prosecutors for impeachment decided pursuing Bill Clinton's blow job was more important than representing his district I completely turned on them. I finally saw the Republican party no longer supported civil liberties and state's rights. Big government to them now only meant in relation to taxes not government interference into an individual's life. Goldwater considered extremely conservative in the 60's would now be more or less a liberal. Republicans using religion as part of their ideology completely have lost their way. I realized the Democrats more or less had taken up the defense of civil liberties. Consequently when Bush invaded Iraq I formally became an Independent. I remained as an Independent until they started promoting further erosion of liberties and state rights. The final straw came on the promotion of a Constitutional amendment to define marriage. I am not gay, but that completely discriminates against part of the citizens and subverts states rights. The Federal government has no business in defining anything in these areas, look at prohibition for example. That is when I became a Democrat in 2006. I saw that the only way to stop religious fanatics and two faced violators of the Constitution was to actively oppose them.

Along comes the stupidity of the Florida legislature and the equal stupid response by the DNC. So here we are where the choice becomes for Florida Democrats to pick between a candidate that is being imposed on us in the fall general election or to not vote for them and allow more Republican control of our lives. A choice between evils is now presented to the Florida Democrat. Which is more evil, disenfranchisement by your own party or more deterioration of America by warped conservative religious fanatics that have no idea what conservatism really means.

Hopefully the DNC rules committee see the mess as suicide and correct their arbitrary harsh punishment on 5/31. If they don't and the credentials committee doesn't in July it matters little who the candidate is of the Dems as they will be tainted. I have not said who I support as it doesn't matter, even if the candidate I support wins the nomination it still is a 48 state candidate imposed on two.

As atheists we are part of a minority that is constantly discriminated against. That should mean we should understand discrimination and work to prevent it. I don't understand how you as a member  of a minority want to persecute or deny other minorities. As no one needs to be a Democrat or a Republican it is suggested that this is not discriminatory as the parties are as private clubs. So other than a governor who was a wrestler in Minnesota and Lieberman how likely is it that Independents can have any effect in America? It seems if you can control who is on the ballot you can pretty much control who wins. That is why I oppose the discrimination being practiced by the DNC.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


Yellow_Number_Five
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pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

 

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

I'm sorry, but you have nobody to blame for this but yourselves and the representatives you elected. The rules were CLEAR, and the representatives you elected chose to defy them anyway and had the gall to be upset when said rules were actually enforced. You should be outraged, but not at Obama, not at Dean, but at your elected officials and since you elected them, yourselves.

I am sick of the mindset this sort of bitching is indicative of - that we deserve a do over or some sort of bail out when the rules we all agreed to actually get enforced.

 

Actually, I don't have myself to blame for this particular fuck up. I didn't elect the

Republican that voted for it nor the felon state senator.

Right, because only that guy voted for it an no democrats did at all, lol.

Read it:

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId=35049

There were a TOTAL of 3 Nay votes by members of Florida's House and Senate for the bill in three rounds of voting. The bill was nearly unanamously supported by BOTH parties.

 

I already knew this. Your statement was that I had no one else to blame but myself and as I said I did not vote for the legislators from my district that voted for the bill, so you're wrong where you placed the blame. To be correct you should not have said you, instead more appropriately it might be your elected representatives.

So, did you NOT vote, or did you vote for one of the 3 people who opposed it?

And, obviously, when I said YOU in my rant post, I was referring to the average Floridian, not YOU specifically (which should have been obvious), who did vote these twits into office, still though I'd wager you're one of them.

Quote:
You should also look at what was contained in HB 537 before you condemn the Dems for voting yes. It included a paper trail in event the electronic voting process fails again as in the Sarasota area where a Republican won because the machines were programmed in a bizarre way. It was a multifaceted omnibus bill and they needed most of it. That was their logic anyway. I would have voted no and put the Republicans against the wall.

So if you would have still opposed it on principle, as you should, why bring up the other pork in the bill - it's irrelevant, and you know it, and say so yourself. You've made no point whatsoever.

 

Quote:
Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Quote:
Yeah, I was pissed they did it. I'm not pissed at Obama or Clinton but the DNC, Dean, and the Florida legislature.

Why be pissed at the DNC? Both the DNC and RNC told Florida EXACTLY what would happen if they moved the primary, the Florida legislators simply didn't think the rule would be enforced or matter. Don't forget the Republicans sanctioned FLA too, cut their delegate weight in half.

 

See below. Selective enforcement of the rules is why. Stupidity in isolating Florida and Michigan so they will likely vote for McCain this fall.

I've already dismissed that. Like I said, just because lots of other people break a rule doesn't mean you didn't or don't deserve the repricussions. Try again.

 

Quote:
Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Quote:
Payback will come.
Make sure you pay back next time you have a state election - you should essentially be voting out all encumbants.

 

I always try. So I should vote for more religious fanatics to represent me is that what you mean? A choice between evils has been presented how nice. I can vote for Republicans that want to make God and Jesus required for US citizenship or I can vote for weaklings that can't stand up for their constituents. Such a choice.

How could you have possibly gotten that from by point? Are you aware of the term "false dichotomy"? While you look that up, look up Red Herring as well.

Then get back to me on my argument.

 

Quote:
Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Quote:
I'm not asking for a do over just follow the rules equally.

The rules are being followed - both the DNC and RNC have done EXACTLY what they said they would do. If, as a Democrat, you don't like said rules, you should petition your party to change them. Fair warning was given.

 

 

No they are not being followed as the other states are not being punished. I don't understand why you think this. Even if guilty the harsh punishment contrived was beyond the prescribed.

Right, it's wrong that I'm being ticketed for speeding when other people speed and don't get ticketed. You fail to grasp the FACT that, as you admit, FLA broke the rules.

Like I said, they should ALL be spanked, but it spanking them all or spanking just some does not change the fact that they still voted to break the rules after being informed what the consequences would be.

 

Quote:
Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Quote:
It seems you ignore as does the DNC and the mainstream media that other states other than Florida and Michigan violated the same DNC rule 11A.

We already know that Florida and Michigan violated Rule 11.A. by moving their primaries to a date before the first Tuesday in February. There is no argument there, but what about Iowa, New Hampshire, and yes, South Carolina too.

 

IMO, all states who violated should get the same treatment. You agree though, that FLA violated the rules, hence, my argument stands. The selective enforcement of the rules is something you should address with the DNC, and not germane to my argument.

As it stands, FLA DID violate the rules, and was warned what would happen if the did.

If you get pulled over for speeding and the guy next to you going just as fast doesn't won't change the fact that you were speeding. End of story.

 

Irrelevant to this discussion.

Poor analogy. A police officer can only pull over one speeder at a time while the DNC is quite capable of punishing all of the states for breaking the rules or ignoring all of them as they did with Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Nevada. It is just a form of suicide the Democrats seem to love. Let's see how we can fuck this up again and give another election away.

No, sorry. You ADMITTED FLA broke the rules, it doesn't get any more clear than this. If you'd like a better analogy, killing somebody and not getting caught is still murder, and if you're caught you deserve to be punished. It matters not that OJ got away with murder, you're still guilty and the fact that OJ got off does not exempt you from punishment.

I will agree with you that this is political suicide for the party though. But hey, that's nothing new.

Quote:
Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Quote:
Please explain why the other states get to break the DNC rules and Florida and Michigan do not. If this is arbitrary then how is that not discriminatory and violating equal protection laws.

I can't explain why it's not being enforced across the board, but like I said, it doesn't change the facts. Again, you should address this with the DNC.

I have.

Good. Hopefully millions more have as well. Too bad you didn't speak up before your legislature went to vote on the bill in the first place.

 

Quote:
Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Quote:
The Florida State Democratic Party followed the DNC rules before and after the state legislature passed the primary change. They opposed the law, proposed alternatives that followed the rules. Yes the legislature passed the change but over objections by the state party.

 NO, the FLA dems did NOT oppose the bill, they voted for it in droves, see my link above (it was co-sponsored by about a dozen people and propsed by two as well, several of which I'm sure are Dems), and YES, they DID violate the rules, as you admitted. Like I said, end of story.

 

There is a difference between the Florida State Democratic legislators and the Florida State Democratic Party. The DNC rules refer to the State party's actions in opposition not the small powerful subset of legislators. As it stands the state law now does not comply to DNC rules. Considering it hasn't been overturned by the Republican legislature and won't be what do you suggest be done. A little help from the DNC for example might be nice.

There is no possible fix without a revote, which would be infeasible, and you know it. The game is over, and like I said, you've a right to be pissed, but those are the breaks. Your elected officials FUCKED you. Take it out on them, that's all you have left to do.

And honestly, I think rocking the Democratic boat any more than the two candidates have already would only piss off more people.

Quote:
Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Quote:
If you think none of this matters think again, Florida will loom large in the November election and being ignored in the primary process will sink the enthusiasm that was shown here:

http://www.fladems.com/content/w/florida_democratic_turnout_shatters_record

If we don't count in the selection process why should we care who you select to run. It will be a candidate imposed by 48 states on 2 unfairly by discrimination. Penalize all the states that violated the rules or penalize none. If not watch for the eventual outcome of the equal protection lawsuit sometime in 2009.

Oh, I KNOW it matters. Like I said in my first post in this thread, the Dems always seem to find a way to shoot themselves in the foot.

 

 

There lies the problem for me. I was a Republican since voting for Nixon in 1972. Over the years the Republicans lost my support as they became perverted with hypocrisy and religion. During Reagan's years I voted independent in revulsion to the new positions they had taken. After my Congressman Bill McCullum one of the House prosecutors for impeachment decided pursuing Bill Clinton's blow job was more important than representing his district I completely turned on them. I finally saw the Republican party no longer supported civil liberties and state's rights.

You and me both. I've always been for smaller government, fewer taxes, 2nd amendment, etc - IOW what the Republicans were 20 some years ago. It's a theocratic party for the most part now, and I won't, and never have had, anything to do with it sine I reached voting age. Like I said, I usually go 3rd party, unashamedly.

Quote:
Big government to them now only meant in relation to taxes not government interference into an individual's life. Goldwater considered extremely conservative in the 60's would now be more or less a liberal. Republicans using religion as part of their ideology completely have lost their way. I realized the Democrats more or less had taken up the defense of civil liberties. Consequently when Bush invaded Iraq I formally became an Independent. I remained as an Independent until they started promoting further erosion of liberties and state rights. The final straw came on the promotion of a Constitutional amendment to define marriage. I am not gay, but that completely discriminates against part of the citizens and subverts states rights. The Federal government has no business in defining anything in these areas, look at prohibition for example. That is when I became a Democrat in 2006. I saw that the only way to stop religious fanatics and two faced violators of the Constitution was to actively oppose them.

Preaching to the choir.

Quote:
Along comes the stupidity of the Florida legislature and the equal stupid response by the DNC. So here we are where the choice becomes for Florida Democrats to pick between a candidate that is being imposed on us in the fall general election or to not vote for them and allow more Republican control of our lives. A choice between evils is now presented to the Florida Democrat. Which is more evil, disenfranchisement by your own party or more deterioration of America by warped conservative religious fanatics that have no idea what conservatism really means.

Again, that's a false dichotomy, you've more than two choices, and I'm not simply talking number of candidates. Imagine the message it would send if pretty much all of FLA boycotted the general altogether. Doubtful, but that would kick quite a few people in the sack. Frankly, I'd love to see that.

Quote:
Hopefully the DNC rules committee see the mess as suicide and correct their arbitrary harsh punishment on 5/31. If they don't and the credentials committee doesn't in July it matters little who the candidate is of the Dems as they will be tainted. I have not said who I support as it doesn't matter, even if the candidate I support wins the nomination it still is a 48 state candidate imposed on two.

But like I said, this isn't feasible now. Either you trash all the other states votes, or you revote. You cannot take the "vote" in hand as it was a) conducted when it was made clear it probably wouldn't count, b) neither candidate was legally allowed to campaign there and 4 Eye-wink ) that the fact that it's been assumed these votes would be tossed has effect the entire race, and 12) and most importantly, that it is completely unfair for FLA to spit in the face of the party rules and move up the primary, have their delegates unseated as punishment for trying to make themselves more important than other states (as per the rules) then essentially turn around and reward their breaking of the rules with essentially deciding who the candidate will be essentially after the fact.

If you think YOU are disenfranchised, imaging what THAT would do.

Quote:
As atheists we are part of a minority that is constantly discriminated against. That should mean we should understand discrimination and work to prevent it. I don't understand how you as a member  of a minority want to persecute or deny other minorities. As no one needs to be a Democrat or a Republican it is suggested that this is not discriminatory as the parties are as private clubs. So other than a governor who was a wrestler in Minnesota and Lieberman how likely is it that Independents can have any effect in America? It seems if you can control who is on the ballot you can pretty much control who wins. That is why I oppose the discrimination being practiced by the DNC.

1) You are NOT a minority in this case. This, if anything, is democrats crapping on democrats - that isn't discrimnination based on anything other than agreed upon rules. You are not being picked on due to political affiliation, belief, race, gender, etc. You are being shafted, because your legislatures broke the clear rules of their own party. 2) Other than Minnesotan wrestlers and former democratic Jews who now fellates Republicans because they bomb Muslims, you support third parties by actually voting for them. Things DON'T change when you vote for what you are given, or in your case, what is forced upon you.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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pauljohntheskeptic
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Yellow_Number_Five wrote:So,

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

So, did you NOT vote, or did you vote for one of the 3 people who opposed it?

In the case of the felon state senator I wrote in a name. My state representative is a Republican who I didn't vote for.

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

And, obviously, when I said YOU in my rant post, I was referring to the average Floridian, not YOU specifically (which should have been obvious), who did vote these twits into office, still though I'd wager you're one of them.

The rant was directed at me so I took it to mean me. As I said I tried and lost last time to be rid of two of them.

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

So if you would have still opposed it on principle, as you should, why bring up the other pork in the bill - it's irrelevant, and you know it, and say so yourself. You've made no point whatsoever.

It wasn't exactly irrelevant but it should have been opposed. It wasn't

 

Quote:
Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Quote:
Yeah, I was pissed they did it. I'm not pissed at Obama or Clinton but the DNC, Dean, and the Florida legislature.

Why be pissed at the DNC? Both the DNC and RNC told Florida EXACTLY what would happen if they moved the primary, the Florida legislators simply didn't think the rule would be enforced or matter. Don't forget the Republicans sanctioned FLA too, cut their delegate weight in half.

I don't care what the RNC does.

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

I've already dismissed that. Like I said, just because lots of other people break a rule doesn't mean you didn't or don't deserve the repricussions. Try again.

I don't agree. It's still discrimination by the Dems though they have a right to play their politics anyway they choose. It should be equal, that it isn't reflects on their spineless mentality. Punish them all is all I ask.

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

I always try. So I should vote for more religious fanatics to represent me is that what you mean? A choice between evils has been presented how nice. I can vote for Republicans that want to make God and Jesus required for US citizenship or I can vote for weaklings that can't stand up for their constituents. Such a choice.

How could you have possibly gotten that from by point? Are you aware of the term "false dichotomy"? While you look that up, look up Red Herring as well.

I didn't get that from your point it's satire.

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Like I said, they should ALL be spanked, but it spanking them all or spanking just some does not change the fact that they still voted to break the rules after being informed what the consequences would be.

As you say you vote Independent or 3rd party so why do you care what happens in the private club called the Democratic Party?

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

There is no possible fix without a revote, which would be infeasible, and you know it. The game is over, and like I said, you've a right to be pissed, but those are the breaks. Your elected officials FUCKED you. Take it out on them, that's all you have left to do.

And honestly, I think rocking the Democratic boat any more than the two candidates have already would only piss off more people.

Florida considered a mail in vote, something that has never been done here. Can you imagine how we'd fuck that up?

Pissing people off tends to cause change. Change in politics is badly needed. Vote for Mickey.

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Oh, I KNOW it matters. Like I said in my first post in this thread, the Dems always seem to find a way to shoot themselves in the foot.

 

Perhaps we should all write in Mickey Mouse as that clearly describes the entire situation. We have plenty of T-Shirts here in Orlando to promote his candidacy.

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

A choice between evils is now presented to the Florida Democrat. Which is more evil, disenfranchisement by your own party or more deterioration of America by warped conservative religious fanatics that have no idea what conservatism really means.

Again, that's a false dichotomy, you've more than two choices, and I'm not simply talking number of candidates. Imagine the message it would send if pretty much all of FLA boycotted the general altogether. Doubtful, but that would kick quite a few people in the sack. Frankly, I'd love to see that.

Again it is a satirical statement. I must watch too much of Bill Maher or something. I still think we should all vote for Mickey.

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Quote:
Hopefully the DNC rules committee see the mess as suicide and correct their arbitrary harsh punishment on 5/31. If they don't and the credentials committee doesn't in July it matters little who the candidate is of the Dems as they will be tainted. I have not said who I support as it doesn't matter, even if the candidate I support wins the nomination it still is a 48 state candidate imposed on two.

But like I said, this isn't feasible now. Either you trash all the other states votes, or you revote. You cannot take the "vote" in hand as it was a) conducted when it was made clear it probably wouldn't count, b) neither candidate was legally allowed to campaign there and 4 Eye-wink ) that the fact that it's been assumed these votes would be tossed has effect the entire race, and 12) and most importantly, that it is completely unfair for FLA to spit in the face of the party rules and move up the primary, have their delegates unseated as punishment for trying to make themselves more important than other states (as per the rules) then essentially turn around and reward their breaking of the rules with essentially deciding who the candidate will be essentially after the fact.

If you think YOU are disenfranchised, imaging what THAT would do.

You realize that even though it was said it wouldn't count the voters in Florida didn't believe that would actually happen. The vote resulted in a record turn out as well, highest since 1988.

Actually upon due consideration I'm just pissed this happened after I became a Democrat. I became a Democrat to try to make a difference. It hasn't and it won't. I'll be an Independent again after this election. I have to try to vote some asshats out in the state office primaries this fall. After that the Dems can disenfranchise all they want.

 

 

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Quote:Actually upon due

Quote:


Actually upon due consideration I'm just pissed this happened after I became a Democrat. I became a Democrat to try to make a difference. It hasn't and it won't. I'll be an Independent again after this election. I have to try to vote some asshats out in the state office primaries this fall. After that the Dems can disenfranchise all they want.

 

I'm always baffled when people talk about switching between Republican and Democrat - that's like switching between driving a Ford and a Chevy - they are essentially the same product, packaged a bit differently.

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pauljohntheskeptic
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Yellow_Number_Five

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Quote:

 

Actually upon due consideration I'm just pissed this happened after I became a Democrat. I became a Democrat to try to make a difference. It hasn't and it won't. I'll be an Independent again after this election. I have to try to vote some asshats out in the state office primaries this fall. After that the Dems can disenfranchise all they want.

 

I'm always baffled when people talk about switching between Republican and Democrat - that's like switching between driving a Ford and a Chevy - they are essentially the same product, packaged a bit differently.

I became a Democrat after being an Independent because I didn't get to be involved in primaries. I was a Republican before that. They are the same product essentially, that's the problem.

It's an attempt to try to affect change. I'm generally a Liberterian now but sometimes one has to pick a side for a few reasons to attempt a change.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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Why is everyone so damn

Why is everyone so damn sensitive!!????

Wtf is this about?

"BRANDON, South Dakota (CNN) -- Sen. Hillary Clinton said Friday that she regretted comments that evoked the June 1968 assassination of Robert Kennedy as part of her explanation for why she was staying in the presidential race late into the primary season.

"Earlier Friday afternoon, she told the editorial board of the Sioux Falls Argus Leader that "My husband did not wrap up the nomination in 1992 until he won the California primary somewhere in the middle of June, right? We all remember Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in June in California. I don't understand it," she said."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/23/clinton.comments/index.html

She didn't say anything derogetory. She simply stated a historical fact. Now she has to apologize and kiss everyone's asses. Wtf is wrong with this world? Not only can you not say anything that might be deemed even mildly offensive, you can't talk about disturbing events of the past even in a historical sense. This crap just pisses me off.

 

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Theia wrote:She didn't say

Theia wrote:

She didn't say anything derogetory. She simply stated a historical fact. Now she has to apologize and kiss everyone's asses. Wtf is wrong with this world? Not only can you not say anything that might be deemed even mildly offensive, you can't talk about disturbing events of the past even in a historical sense. This crap just pisses me off.

 

I think the problem is that the Clintons will do anything to achieve power. So I think many people(including myself) believe that she is secretly hoping that something tragic will happen to Obama so she can get power. The Clintons try to hide the fact that they are so damn power hungry, this little slip up reveals what they are really all about.

 

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EXC wrote: I think the

EXC wrote:

 

I think the problem is that the Clintons will do anything to achieve power. So I think many people(including myself) believe that she is secretly hoping that something tragic will happen to Obama so she can get power. The Clintons try to hide the fact that they are so damn power hungry, this little slip up reveals what they are really all about.

 

How did you come to that conclusion from that article? She was only stating that other presidential canditates have stayed in the running until June. That was the point she was making. Trust me, I can't stand the woman so I'm not defending her personally, but to think that her mentioning Kennedy is an indication she wants Obama to get shot is a bit of a stretch.

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Theia wrote:EXC wrote: I

Theia wrote:

EXC wrote:

 

I think the problem is that the Clintons will do anything to achieve power. So I think many people(including myself) believe that she is secretly hoping that something tragic will happen to Obama so she can get power. The Clintons try to hide the fact that they are so damn power hungry, this little slip up reveals what they are really all about.

 

How did you come to that conclusion from that article? She was only stating that other presidential canditates have stayed in the running until June. That was the point she was making. Trust me, I can't stand the woman so I'm not defending her personally, but to think that her mentioning Kennedy is an indication she wants Obama to get shot is a bit of a stretch.

Well I'd agree with you if it was an isolated incident. But her history of making stuff up and exaggerated claims indicates that she will say and do anything to achieve power. So every statement she makes is viewed in light of this fact, so that's why this is a big blunder for her. Someone wrote a book called "I've always been a Yankees fan" about all her statements and claims that demonstrate her willingness to say or do anything for power and importance. Then she makes up claims about her trip to Bosnia.

This just fits the pattern of an extremely power hungry person, she thinks of her opponent's death as a way to achieve power. I don't like much of Obama's policies, but he doesn't strike me a someone who is as desperate as Hillary is for power and significance. So he is probably a much less dangerous leader. Hopefully this little incident will be the end of the power mad Clintons.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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Yeah EXC I AM disappointed

Yeah EXC I AM disappointed with Hillary as you say ....

  A bit off topic but important , a 1 min vid ,

If I Were A Terrorist A James Pence Video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1EXKLVgEx0

 

 

  

  


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pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Quote:

 

Actually upon due consideration I'm just pissed this happened after I became a Democrat. I became a Democrat to try to make a difference. It hasn't and it won't. I'll be an Independent again after this election. I have to try to vote some asshats out in the state office primaries this fall. After that the Dems can disenfranchise all they want.

 

I'm always baffled when people talk about switching between Republican and Democrat - that's like switching between driving a Ford and a Chevy - they are essentially the same product, packaged a bit differently.

I became a Democrat after being an Independent because I didn't get to be involved in primaries. I was a Republican before that. They are the same product essentially, that's the problem.

It's an attempt to try to affect change. I'm generally a Liberterian now but sometimes one has to pick a side for a few reasons to attempt a change.

And what happens when you cave in and pick the lesser of the two evils? Congratulations, you are still part of the problem.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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So I take it you advocate

So I take it you advocate the George Carlin method of voting? Vote for none.

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"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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pauljohntheskeptic wrote:So

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

So I take it you advocate the George Carlin method of voting? Vote for none.

No, vote for what you actually support. In good conscious, I cannot support McCaine or Hillary's platform. Obama may get my vote, but not likely. I'll be voting my principles as I always do, IOW, likely libertarian. If there is nobody I can support then I won't vote.

I am, however convinced, that as long as the American political system runs under a two party system (two parties who are essentially identical on 75% of the issues and becoming more alike every election cycle) that we're all essentially fucked, and getting more fucked every election.

But yeah, vote for the person that you disagree with the least - that'll make things better.

Personally, I think there should be a "none of the above" box on every ballot. It would essentially be a vote of no confidence.

 

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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Don't waste your vote on an

Don't waste your vote on an obvious loser, FIX your vote .....

to everyone,

Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you. -- Pericles >>> (430 B.C.) <<<

When a man assumes a public trust, he should consider himself as public property.
--- Thomas Jefferson  ((( this goes both ways , the voter - the elected

If there is anything a public servant hates to do it's something for the public. --- Anonymous