Mfg. in China

dassercha
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Mfg. in China

How is it that the American gov't allows ANY trade at all w/ China? How the hell did we get to this point? I mean how did the first company that decided to have Chinese workers perform labor that US citizens could--how did the US gov't allow that? Was that back decades ago (I assume?) Yes, I guess I need a history lesson Eye-wink

Is it not a slap in the face to all Korean/Vietnam vets who fought communism, only to have mfg.-ing jobs go over there? What am I missing?

 

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HeyZeusCreaseToe
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Missing?

dassercha wrote:

I mean how did the first company that decided to have Chinese workers perform labor that US citizens could--how did the US gov't allow that? What am I missing?

 

You are totally missing the point of what capitalism can do if left unchecked. Free trade and capitalism have one goal, that is making as much as a profit as possible. Ethical considerations for child labor restrictions, minimum work hours, paying workers a pittance, and detriment to American labor forces do not really figure into the equation unless they are forced by a regulating body. It is cheaper to do business there because they do not have the labor laws we do and can basically run their businesses like an indentured service fleet. Fighting communism is only used as  a rationale, when it conflicts with our personal political-economic issues. Even then, the power of agreeing upon trade agreements does not reflect what is best for American citizens, but rather what is best for American businesses. It is a classic example of trickle down economics, where increased wealth in the top of the society gradually flows down through the ranks to all people in that society. It doesn't matter that the system is an utter farce, because the frame and belief in the system are so ingrained in our society and many in our government. Look at our trade with Cuba vs. China, both communist regimes. We hated Castro(and his previous evil empire ties) so we embargoed them, plus they don't export that many things American society depends on(when compared with China).

Expanding free trade to countries with lower labor costs and lower standards of living than your own country always devalues the price of labor and sheds jobs in your country. The major political meme involved is basically freer markets=freer trade=more prosperity for all involved. This has been pounded into people's heads for the last twenty five years quite effectively and the opponents of the idea have not created an adequate reframing of the issue to refute the current meme.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda


dassercha
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HeyZeusCreaseToe

HeyZeusCreaseToe wrote:

dassercha wrote:

I mean how did the first company that decided to have Chinese workers perform labor that US citizens could--how did the US gov't allow that? What am I missing?

 

You are totally missing the point of what capitalism can do if left unchecked. Free trade and capitalism have one goal, that is making as much as a profit as possible. Ethical considerations for child labor restrictions, minimum work hours, paying workers a pittance, and detriment to American labor forces do not really figure into the equation unless they are forced by a regulating body. It is cheaper to do business there because they do not have the labor laws we do and can basically run their businesses like an indentured service fleet. Fighting communism is only used as  a rationale, when it conflicts with our personal political-economic issues. Even then, the power of agreeing upon trade agreements does not reflect what is best for American citizens, but rather what is best for American businesses. It is a classic example of trickle down economics, where increased wealth in the top of the society gradually flows down through the ranks to all people in that society. It doesn't matter that the system is an utter farce, because the frame and belief in the system are so ingrained in our society and many in our government. Look at our trade with Cuba vs. China, both communist regimes. We hated Castro(and his previous evil empire ties) so we embargoed them, plus they don't export that many things American society depends on(when compared with China).

Expanding free trade to countries with lower labor costs and lower standards of living than your own country always devalues the price of labor and sheds jobs in your country. The major political meme involved is basically freer markets=freer trade=more prosperity for all involved. This has been pounded into people's heads for the last twenty five years quite effectively and the opponents of the idea have not created an adequate reframing of the issue to refute the current meme.

Thanks! Wow, yeah, didn't even think about Cuba vs. China. Unreal this...

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Since I live in China, and

Since I live in China, and am therefore familiar with the history (and speak the language)...China was a Maoist State until Mao died in 1976, which officially ended the cultural Revolution. The arrest of the Gang of Four after Mao's Death marked the end of the reign of terror of the radical Leftists. The Rightists, who called for moderation and reform, economically and socially, were freed (Liu Shaoqi, however, had been killed)

Deng Xioapeng, who was now free, began the process of opening China up to trade. China, since it has opened its markets and allowed foreign investment, has grown enormously fast. The US could not possibly compete with such a large manufacturing economy as China. The reforms of deng Xiaopeng have lifted approximately 250,000,000 people in China out of poverty, roughly the same as the entire US population at the time the reforms were instigated. The growth of China, at a rate of 10% or more pa, attracted huge numbers of foreign investors, convinced they were going to make millions by building industry in China. The process of modernization did not truly begin in earnest until the 1990s, but since then, China has grown to become the third largest economy in the world. Within several decades, it is likely that China will assume its historical role as the most powerful nation on Earth, which it has been for the bulk of recorded history (which is great for me since I speak Mandarin). Initially, China was known for cheap, shoddy, rip-offs, much like Japan in the early 1950s. Also like Japan, that changed very quickly (and is still in the process of change). With by far the world's largest population, a huge manufacturing base, strong nationalism, a history of economic dominance dating 5000 years, and a highly intellectual culture, it is little wonder that China is growing in double digits and that the Americans are falling over themselves to trade with China. I live here, I've watched entire cities being erected overnight (not literally, of course, but you get the idea). In Qinghai, Shangxi, Dalian, Xian, and in the cities across the vast Eastern Seaboard (Beijing, Shanghai, Nanjing) the growth has been so fast, you can go on a month-long tip and return to find you don't know your way around anymore.

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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Wow, and thanks again DG

  Wow, and thanks again DG . If you don't mind me asking,

How long have you lived there, always ? Are you a china man? With all the fear talk I hear about China becoming the most powerful nation, I've long thought that would be an improvement. Would you agree? Regarding, "most powerful", I've long thought that no country should have large standing military, and that a unified United Nations military peace enforcer is the better idea. Just to add,  I am biased in my appreciation of eastern philosophy. I am a big Alan Watts fan etc.

How can the general western public have more internet interaction with the east, and mideast ?  The TV breaks my heart ....

 China dolls are wow !  I'd sure like to read more of your thoughts about China and the east in general .....  Lot's of us would, or should. The real news and truth is hard to get .....  Thanks and no hurry, and be extra nice to yourself, an easterner said !    


deludedgod
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Quote:How long have you

Quote:

How long have you lived there, always

Eight years

Quote:

Are you a china man?

I hold dual British/Canadian citizenship

Quote:

How can the general western public have more internet interaction with the east, and mideast ?  The TV breaks my heart ....

How curious...in the US, the media is wholly America-centric. The Americans are not interested in global affairs. Even on the state-controlled media in China, most of the news is foreign. The Chinese are very interested in world affairs, and most people are intimately aware of global events...which is the opposite of the American mentality.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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I AM GOD AS YOU
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  Yeah HeyZeus,  "You are

  Yeah HeyZeus,  "You are totally missing the point of what capitalism can do if left unchecked."

   A question, Shouldn't there be a limit to how rich anyone can get ?  I think yes.


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A cap on wealth?

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

   A question, Shouldn't there be a limit to how rich anyone can get ?  I think yes.

This is one of those things where my innate instinct is to say no, there should be no limit to how much wealth an individual can accrue(in a legal way of course).

(Beware Yoda-esque reasoning) On the other hand, logically, I think one can make a fairly compelling case that money leads to power, power leads to influence, and influence can fundamentally change the society in which one lives. While in a microscopic view it does not seem to be necessarily bad, but in  the macro sense, people with vast fortunes like Warren Buffet and Rupert Murdoch can wield more influence on people through effective use of their money than the combinative efforts of millions of various private citizens. In that sense, it seems that capping the accrual of wealth may in fact keep a free and democratic society more equal with respect to the amount of influence any single individual can hold in that society.

In closing I would like to quote Forrest Gump, "and thats all I have to say about that."

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda


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umm , so YeyZeus is

  umm , so HeyZeus is undecided ? What are laws for ?  Do we need laws ? 


dassercha
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Thanks deluded for the info.

Thanks deluded for the info. I appreciate your time once again on these forums!!!!! Must take time to process this all... Smiling

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