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dassercha
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Your Critique Welcome!

OK, been mulling this one over for awhile. Plz lemme know yer thoughts, theists (fundies especially), atheists and/or otherwise...

Here goes:

You're either "with God" or your not. No in between. Accept Jesus or else. Therefore,  if you are not "with God" you cannot be "of the good" and are, in fact, evil. How then, for example, can so many in the "evil atheist" scientific/medical community be so consumed w/ helping others (extending life,  alleviating pain, etc). By the typical xian/fundy definition above, atheists simply CANNOT do good.

There it is. Am I missing something?

Thanks in advance!

 

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Loc
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I'll try answer from my

I'll try answer from my ex-fundy perspective:

I wouldn't go so far as to say a non-christian can't do any good. However,you are right in saying that they are with god or are not. So while they may do good, they will still go to hell. Salvation cannot be earned by good works, but by faith alone.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

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dassercha
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Loc wrote:I'll try answer

Loc wrote:

I'll try answer from my ex-fundy perspective:

I wouldn't go so far as to say a non-christian can't do any good. However,you are right in saying that they are with god or are not. So while they may do good, they will still go to hell. Salvation cannot be earned by good works, but by faith alone.

Thanks for the response!

I just seem to remember NT verses (Paul?) saying that the worldly people are INCAPABLE of doing good. Am I wrong/misremembering?

Not able to research at this moment.

 

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HeyZeusCreaseToe
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Framing issue

dassercha wrote:

You're either "with God" or your not. No in between. Accept Jesus or else. Therefore,  if you are not "with God" you cannot be "of the good" and are, in fact, evil. How then, for example, can so many in the "evil atheist" scientific/medical community be so consumed w/ helping others (extending life,  alleviating pain, etc). By the typical xian/fundy definition above, atheists simply CANNOT do good.

As I have been reading a lot on linguistics and framing lately, I would say you are falling into the trap of using someone else's eyes to look at the situation. While it is true that it is good to try to see things from your opponent's point of view so as to understand their argument better(and yours as well), it does no good to use their frame to describe your worldview by merely saying it is opposite to theirs.

I think you are describing the difference between Chistian Fundamentalists who base their teachings on helping others versus secular humanists who see human suffering as a problem worth solving. Here is what I would say a reframing of this argument would look like:

Atheists do not believe in God. Since they believe there is no God, Atheists do not accept the many contrasting theological moral absolutes commanded by various Gods as absolute. Being "good" is defined by the society one lives in as well as the moral compass intrinsically provided by human evolution(with some exceptions). Atheists and secular humanists, while not mutually inclusive, many times overlap or become one in the same. That is not to say that an Atheist need to be a secular humanist to be concerned with helping others, but rather that many Atheists see this life as their only one and try to make it the best they can, for themselves and others. While being quite optimistic and idealistic, Secular Humanism (Wiki)"upholds reason, ethics, and justice, and specifically rejects the supernatural and the spiritual as warrants of moral reflection and decision-making. Like other types of humanism, secular humanism is a life stance focusing on the way human beings can lead good and happy lives."

 

 

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda


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Yeah, I'm actually brooding

Yeah, I'm actually brooding this over in my head b/w myself & a supposed fundy arguing both sides. That's why I'm looking at it from their viewpoint. I just keep hearing from that camp how evil the "rest" of the world is, and it's annoying considering.  Thanks for the perspective.

I'd love to get a real live fundy in here to flesh this out more--but me thinks they've been all chased away!!!! Eye-wink

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HeyZeusCreaseToe
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Fo shizl Bizl

Keep it rizl. Maybe you can get this thread moved to the theist vs. atheist forum.


dassercha
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HeyZeusCreaseToe wrote:Keep

HeyZeusCreaseToe wrote:

Keep it rizl. Maybe you can get this thread moved to the theist vs. atheist forum.

It's there!

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Bible Paul was definitely

  Bible Paul was definitely crazy ...... but talented ..... can you feel that pain ? 


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manic

dassercha wrote:

OK, been mulling this one over for awhile. Plz lemme know yer thoughts, theists (fundies especially), atheists and/or otherwise...

Here goes:

You're either "with God" or your not. No in between. Accept Jesus or else. Therefore,  if you are not "with God" you cannot be "of the good" and are, in fact, evil. How then, for example, can so many in the "evil atheist" scientific/medical community be so consumed w/ helping others (extending life,  alleviating pain, etc). By the typical xian/fundy definition above, atheists simply CANNOT do good.

There it is. Am I missing something?

Thanks in advance!

 

   The attitude seems to come from a desperate need for everyone to think of their god the exact same way they do. Fundys simply cannot accept anything that does not conform to themselves. A boarderline personality disorder called Mendachia Paranoia seems to describe it best.

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dassercha wrote:You're

dassercha wrote:

You're either "with God" or your not. No in between. Accept Jesus or else. Therefore,  if you are not "with God" you cannot be "of the good" and are, in fact, evil. How then, for example, can so many in the "evil atheist" scientific/medical community be so consumed w/ helping others (extending life,  alleviating pain, etc). By the typical xian/fundy definition above, atheists simply CANNOT do good. 

Fundamentalists don't think atheists can't do good things as much as they consider their good deeds worthless without Christ.  This is one of the many points at which I strongly disagree with fundamental Christianity.  I tend to agree with James in that faith is dead without works - not that works justify you, but that good deeds will certainly follow - but I certainly don't think goodness and atheism are mutually exclusive.  If anything I respect the goodness of atheists more so than the goodness of Christians.  At least your good deeds are conducted without the pretense of "Well, I have to.  God insists." 


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jmm wrote:dassercha

jmm wrote:

dassercha wrote:

You're either "with God" or your not. No in between. Accept Jesus or else. Therefore,  if you are not "with God" you cannot be "of the good" and are, in fact, evil. How then, for example, can so many in the "evil atheist" scientific/medical community be so consumed w/ helping others (extending life,  alleviating pain, etc). By the typical xian/fundy definition above, atheists simply CANNOT do good. 

Fundamentalists don't think atheists can't do good things as much as they consider their good deeds worthless without Christ.  This is one of the many points at which I strongly disagree with fundamental Christianity.  I tend to agree with James in that faith is dead without works - not that works justify you, but that good deeds will certainly follow - but I certainly don't think goodness and atheism are mutually exclusive.  If anything I respect the goodness of atheists more so than the goodness of Christians.  At least your good deeds are conducted without the pretense of "Well, I have to.  God insists." 

I do know it ticks off fundamentalists to no end when I inform them that "I'm a better man, a better person than they are, because I do what's right, because it's right, not because I fear hell or long for heaven."

 

LC >;-}>

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  The story Jesus said this

  The story Jesus said this is heaven. Obviously Xains don't read the bible, and are Jesus' enemy  ........  hell makers and hypocrites xains are ......  


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Again, thanks for the

Again, thanks for the responses!

I'm still plagued by seeming to remember some NT verses that support my original premise. Does anybody with beaucoup Bible knowledge have some quotes? (i.e. that the "worldly" people are INCAPABLE of doing good or some such, not just b/c they refuse Christ).

I sooooooo don't wanna post this question in the xian forums. PLEASE someone save me!!!! Think of the children! Eye-wink

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I think the "saving'

  I think the "saving' Jesus message was simply being free of all superstition and rejecting the church hypocrite masters and religious dogma.  "One with the father (cosmos)".  Yes, "the Christ in me / you.  Simple ..... 

  The Buddha message is basically the same with many suggestions to eliminating unnecessary suffering ..... Thanks J/B , yeah the church is the tricky clever devil of wrong thinking .....  

   If you "see the light" , and "believe in me", my message of "ONE", you are "saved" ..... and eternal with the father (cosmos) as everything recycles (reincarnation) .....

  Both J and B are atheistic , religion is a theist version thing .....