Calling physicists - Magnetic Water

ronin-dog
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Calling physicists - Magnetic Water

I need help with this one, looks like a croc of shit, but as my wife pointed out while I was getting angry watching a segment about it on "Today Tonight" (I don't usually watch the crap, but this caught my attention), I am not an expert so it is actually possible that I am wrong.

Check out this  http://waterforlife.net.au/

Apparently magnetizing the water changes it's molecular structure in some way and makes it wetter, effectively becoming "snake oil".

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Ha ha, yes, responding to my own post

Actually adding to it.

Apparently it works like this: "The magnetic treatment through a phenomenon called " magnetic - hydrodynamic resonance" under the action of Lorentz's force. "

One of their products:

The Magnetic Funnel is used for magnetising liquids. Water and other solutions passed through the Magnetic Funnel, acquire a finer and more homogeneous structure that significantly enhances the fluidity and dissolving ability as well as biological activity. Magnetic water has been successful in preventing and curing kidney diseases, kidney and gall stones in particular.

 

Water acquiring a finer and more homogenous structure (and not just while in the magnetic field)?

 

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Quote:Apparently magnetizing

Quote:

Apparently magnetizing the water changes it's molecular structure in some way

Pure garbage. Firstly, it's quite obvious that application of a magnetic field doesn't "change the molecular structure of water". Whenever you "change the molecular structure" of something, it becomes "something else". If you "change the molecular structure of water, it isn't water anymore!

Water is said to be a dipole. It has a slightly negative end and a slightly positive end. This partial charge is central to virtually all biological reactions and a host of other chemical properties, such as ionic dissolution. Applying a magnetic field to water will not "change its molecular structure". It will not make it "wetter", whatever the fuck that means. All it will do is force the molecules into a certain orientation. The negative ends of the dipole will point to the positive end of the magnet, and vice-versa. If you are bored, you can demonstrate this yourself using a very fine stream of tap water running, take a piece of plastic and rub it vigorously, thereby giving it a static charge. Position this close to the thin stream of running water, and the stream of water will bend towards it.

This has absolutely no effect on any chemical properties of water itself, and water is not the only molecule to do this, in fact, all hydrophilic molecules have this property. Does it make watter wetter? This isn't really meaningful so what I am supposed to say? Does it change the molecular structure in some way? No. By definition, the only thing that change the molecular structure of anything is a chemical reaction. The application of a physical (as opposed to a chemical) property of water, its dipolarity, will have no effect on water itself. The only thing that will happen is that the water molecules will arrange themsleves in oriented with respect to the magnet. As soon as you release the field, the effect will vanish. What will happen when you drink water with this field applied? Nothing. What permanent effects does this field have on water? None.

 

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Quote:" magnetic -

Quote:

" magnetic - hydrodynamic resonance" under the action of Lorentz's force. "

This is completely meaningless. It is little more than intimidation using scientific terminology. It is true that the Lorentz force (the force on a point charge induced by an electromagnetic field) will induce the effect I described above, but since "magnetic-hydrodynamic resonance" is gibberish, there is little more I can say. As I mentioned before, the application of a magentic field to a dipole will induce the molecules to orient themselves in a fashion with respect to the poles. Of course, as soon as the field is released, this effect will vanish. Water cannot be "magnetized". It can respond to an induced magnetic field, but it cannot be magnetized.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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Thanks,pretty much what I

Thanks,

pretty much what I thought. The more I read on their site, the more obviously bogus it is.

I didn't bother to read the "testimonials"

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deludedgod wrote:Pure

deludedgod wrote:

Pure garbage. Firstly, it's quite obvious that application of a magnetic field doesn't "change the molecular structure of water". Whenever you "change the molecular structure" of something, it becomes "something else". If you "change the molecular structure of water, it isn't water anymore!

. . .


What will happen when you drink water with this field applied? Nothing. What permanent effects does this field have on water? None.

Not to mention if this device DID do what they say and it became something else, there's a good chance you either wouldn't be able to imbibe it (supposed "Klein gas," another kind of snake oil) or wouldn't want to (hydrogen peroxide).


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Make up some

Make up some pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo and you can literally sell anything. I came up with a way to sell dirt. Just say it's a 'mud pack' facial treatment. Oh wait, they already have that. See? What did I tells ya?

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Magnetic rain

Now here is some truly great science. One of my favourite bits from their site.

http://waterforlife.net.au/content/water/magnetic-rain

 

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What a load of crap!

Wait, what? A water molecule that undergoes a transformation and gets a negative charge? Amazing! And to think that normal scientists don't even have a NAME for that!

What's that? They do?! Oh yeah, they do.

The bush that's being beat around here is called a Hydroxide ion ( OH- - I just knew there had to be a superscript button!), the conjugate base to the acid Hydronium ( H3O+ ), both of which exist naturally in water. So, rather than some magical benefit of water molecules clustering around a hydroxide molecule, you know what happens? The pH shifts. That's it. Depending on the optimal pH for your plants, you could even kill the soil in your field with some ass-hattery like this.

My favorite part of that last page you linked is down at the bottom where it shows a picture of a "magnetic" cloud over Dubai.

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Mazid the Raider wrote:The

Mazid the Raider wrote:

The bush that's being beat around here is called a Hydroxide ion ( OH- - I just knew there had to be a superscript button!), the conjugate base to the acid Hydronium ( H3O+ ), both of which exist naturally in water. So, rather than some magical benefit of water molecules clustering around a hydroxide molecule, you know what happens? The pH shifts. That's it. Depending on the optimal pH for your plants, you could even kill the soil in your field with some ass-hattery like this.

My chemistry's a little rusty - how much of a magnetic field would it take to significantly change the pH of water by "encouraging" hydroxide ions? I seem to recall the hydroxide/hydronium thing having a fairly miniscule effect on pH, but given a strong enough magnetic field, would it really be possible to change the pH significantly? 

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hehe, that's another funny thing about it

Okay, so you guys know that water is very slightly polar - the H atoms are slightly less electronegative than the two O atoms. So when a magnetic, or electromagnetic field is imposed on water there is a tendency for individual molecules to line up, though it doesn't affect the pH. Hydronium and Hydroxide balance out to a pH of 7 in ordinary water, btw - it takes addition of another acid or base to skew that balance. Now, what happens if you oscillate the electromagnetic field? The water molecules also oscillate, spinning around to orient themselves according to the field. Does this have an effect on the pH? Perhaps, but before you do anything "useful" with that, you'll evaporate the water - this is how a microwave oven works. Increased molecular motion = greater heat, so imposing the alternating electromagnetic fields at high enough frequency (2.45 * 109s-1, usually) heats up water and other polar molecules.

The claims on that site just smell fishier and fishier, don't they?

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Mazid the Raider wrote:So

Mazid the Raider wrote:

So when a magnetic, or electromagnetic field is imposed on water there is a tendency for individual molecules to line up, though it doesn't affect the pH. Hydronium and Hydroxide balance out to a pH of 7 in ordinary water, btw - it takes addition of another acid or base to skew that balance. 

That's what I thought - I couldn't imagine a situation where a steady magnetic force would somehow remain with water. Wouldn't the absense of the field just result in the water reverting back to a pH of 7 (for distilled water)? Even if it did, somehow affect the pH, I'd imagine the effect would be very small.

Mazid the Raider wrote:
Now, what happens if you oscillate the electromagnetic field?

I actually laughed here, because it didn't occur to me until you wrote that to think of the microwave originally, even when the working part of a microwave is called the "magnetron". 

Mazid the Raider wrote:
The claims on that site just smell fishier and fishier, don't they?

I don't know - they started off about as fishy as you can get.

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Thanks again, I like

Thanks again, I like back-up.

The bits on health are also quite funny. Apparently they can cure diabetes too! Just through in enough sciencey words so that it sounds real.

One of the marks of science (or other) charlatans is that they don't know when to stop. If they made just one dubious claim people would be more likely to go "well, it seems unlikely but I don't know everything", but they always just go on and on till if it were true they could solve all of humaities problems with one little trick.

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ronin-dog wrote:The bits on

ronin-dog wrote:

The bits on health are also quite funny. Apparently they can cure diabetes too! Just through in enough sciencey words so that it sounds real.

Crackpot motherfuckers (reminds me of some high altitude 'ozone treatment' for cancer patients). If nothing else, the diabetes claim alone would call complete bullshit on them. Really, what could water or any formation of hydrogen and oxygen molecules could rebuild dead cells in a pancreas and increase insulin production? I bet they don't even make a distinction between type 1 and type 2 diabetes. If you've got type 1, your pancreas is fucked beyond repair, only possible fix would have to be a transplant, or you're stuck with the insulin injections.

just as a side note, how does insulin get produced for diabetics use if anyone knows?


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I believe that the insulin

I believe that the insulin used to treat humans who need it used to come primarily from pigs.  It has been biosynthesized since the 80's from human DNA injected into a host cell and today that's by far the most common source.

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Thomathy wrote:I believe

Thomathy wrote:

I believe that the insulin used to treat humans who need it used to come primarily from pigs.  It has been biosynthesized since the 80's from human DNA injected into a host cell and today that's by far the most common source.

 

Pigs and cattle, and at one time dogs. It is still the most prevalent source, though synthetics have been developed, they are not as effective and are much more expensive.

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Yellow_Number_Five

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Thomathy wrote:

I believe that the insulin used to treat humans who need it used to come primarily from pigs.  It has been biosynthesized since the 80's from human DNA injected into a host cell and today that's by far the most common source.

 

Pigs and cattle, and at one time dogs. It is still the most prevalent source, though synthetics have been developed, they are not as effective and are much more expensive.

 

I did read about a genetically engineered insulin-synthesizing bacterium at one point too.

 

Oh, and as for the magnetized water garbage... ugh.

My grandpa is actually really into this bullshit. "Magnets boy, that's the future! You should get into selling magnets! Hell, I've been drinking magnetic water for months now, and it's brought my cholesterol down. I've been wearing these magnetic socks every night and now I don't have arthritis anymore."

I just don't have the heart to tell him it is all snake-oil bullshit.


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The magnetic properties of

The magnetic properties of water are just the typical weak diamagnetism of pretty much all non-ferro-magnetic substances, so the only effect of a magnet on water is a slight repulsion, not enough to notice without special instruments.

So this is all absolute hogwash.

Water is a polar substance, because the distribution of nuclear (positive) charges is asymmetrical, giving it aa negative and a positively charged side. This will not in anyway be affected by a magnet, apart from a very small force if the magnet is moving relative to the molecule, but it will be affected by electrical charge.

This mainly affects the way it interacts with other molecules. You can't really affect it at a molecular level by external electrostatic fields, because it is a relative good conductor of electricity, so this will shield the molecules in the bulk of the material from even 'feeling' the external field. Any charged object actually immersed in water will be discharged, or if covered with insulation will immediately be surrounded by charged ions which will mask the charge from the rest of the water.

A DC voltage applied across a sample of water will tend to split it into hydrogen and oxygen gas.

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