Sin before sin?

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Sin before sin?

Now the entire concept of christianity is based on the how god needed a blood sacrifice of his son in order to subside his wrath against us for eating the forbidden fruit. By sinning and disobeying him, god caused sin to enter the world, as to say the world was without sin prior to that event. How could adam and eve sin, if sin was not yet in the world? This can't be said to be a metaphor, because as i stated christianity is based on this concept.

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed with no evidence." Christopher Hitchens


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I suppose a christian might

I suppose a christian might say the potential for sin was already in the world. So the tree of knowledge/good and evil contained the concept of sin in it which was released when eaten.

Another answer would be,who knows what christianity's ever on about?

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

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This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

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Entertaining that this story

Entertaining that this story even has the slightest realistic value, I would say the first and only sin would be the act of god even putting a tree of knowledge in the garden in the first place.

What the hell were they suppose to eat? So if they can't eat a damn apple, are they allowed to hunt and kill their food? Which would be more of a sin to an all loving god. But the whole thing that gets me about their story is that infamous apple tree. WHAT IS THE DEAL WITH THAT APPLE TREE?????

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Actually doesn't the story

Actually doesn't the story say there were plenty of trees they could eat from? Anyway, why would God put that tree there other than to play headgames like a sick person would. Besides, if they didn't kno good from evil, how would they know disobedience was wrong? "I told you so" is very insulting to a person as a reason for something, and even as a child I refused to accept it as such.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."
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It's just like the greek's

It's just like the greek's pandoras box. A story to explain why there is evil in the world. Unfortunatly people still think its true in spite of logic.

Btw im new on here, nice to meet you guys.

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed with no evidence." Christopher Hitchens


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I wonder of you and I dear

I wonder of you and I dear reader; Man and woman--Adam and Eve, were the subject of this story in Genesis. A warning to us from the authors of the book not to become knowledgeable in our world, not to stray from the teachings of our 'makers' as this would lead us away from 'god'.

And if the story weren't metaphor or analogy and were true to the point of an actual tree with actual fruit that if once eaten man were doomed to be born sinful, why even place the temptation ?

 

"Inaction breeds doubt and fear. Action breeds confidence and courage.
If you want to conquer fear, do not sit home and think about it.
Go out and get busy."
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I would agree with Loc's

I would agree with Loc's point that the potential for sin always existed by witue of the fact that Adam and Eve always had the capability of choosing.  That the tree was some sort of "trap" or "test", I really doubt.  I think that the fruit of the tree was going to be given to them at some time.

I don't think, either. that the point of the story is that we should avoid examination, or knowledge of our world.  Science is as much a revelation of the mind of God as is religion.

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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There are two ways that

There are two ways that ancient religions accounted for sin.  Christianity is the later of the two systems.  In older mythologies, evil was an externally existing thing, sometimes personified in a god, and sometimes just existing as a force in the cosmos.  Humans were caught in a struggle between larger forces -- those of good and evil -- and when bad things happened, it was because of an external force exerting itself on poor little humanity.

When gods became patriarchal, and agriculture turned into big cities, evil became a human trait, something inherently flawed within us, that corrupted the otherwise pristine world outside.

The Adam and Eve story, as it is presented, is incomplete.  In older versions of it, Lilith was the first wife of Adam.  The seemingly arbitrary placement of the tree in the garden is largely because the story has been cobbled together from older stories.  Nonetheless, it represents one of the newer myths, placing blame for evil on man instead of accepting it as part of existence separate from man.

(Of course, if Satan had already sinned against God, one can hardly say that man was responsible for bringing sin in the world.  As I recall, the talking snake appeared before Adam ate the apple.)

 

 

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God is an asshole. He not

God is an asshole. He not only put that tree there to tempt them, but being omniscient he knew that they would eat from it! What a set-up!

He's also a liar, I'm sure he said that they would die if they ate from it, but he just kicked them out and let them have sex.

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ronin-dog wrote:God is an

ronin-dog wrote:
God is an asshole. He not only put that tree there to tempt them, but being omniscient he knew that they would eat from it! What a set-up!

When I was a kid, I had a thing for maraschino cherries.  Still do.  Can't stay away from em.  If there's a jar of em around the house, I'm gonna be eating em.  From time to time, my folks would have friends over for cocktails (manhattans, I think), which would mean they would buy maraschino cherries.  My mom would make it clear that the maraschino cherries were not for us (kids), but for the guests.  I remember to this day, eating every maraschino cherry in the house prior to the guests arriving and the aftermath of my actions.  Am I to believe that the whole invitiing guests over for drinks thing was just a set up so mom could have dad beat my ass?  That bitch!

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He's also a liar, I'm sure he said that they would die if they ate from it, but he just kicked them out and let them have sex.

But they did die.  Perhaps mortality was man's intended destiny.  And if not an immediate physical death, they died a spiritual death, a separation from the presence of God, an intimacy with Him, which they had shared prior to the Fall.

 

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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The writer / writers of

  The writer / writers of Genesis was / where obviously having fun with words and poetics , definitely lucky , and probably high, and giggling  ..... and in awe, thinking about GAWED, while putting up with life  !     


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totus_tuus wrote:When I was

totus_tuus wrote:
When I was a kid, I had a thing for maraschino cherries. Still do. Can't stay away from em. If there's a jar of em around the house, I'm gonna be eating em. From time to time, my folks would have friends over for cocktails (manhattans, I think), which would mean they would buy maraschino cherries. My mom would make it clear that the maraschino cherries were not for us (kids), but for the guests. I remember to this day, eating every maraschino cherry in the house prior to the guests arriving and the aftermath of my actions. Am I to believe that the whole invitiing guests over for drinks thing was just a set up so mom could have dad beat my ass? That bitch!

Thats a different situation though. There is a purpose behind why the cherries are there. There is no conceivable reason for the tree of life to be in the garden of eden except for the fall of man. God didn't place it there for some of his friends to eat from it. He being omniscience knew that if he put it there man would fall.

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed with no evidence." Christopher Hitchens


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totus_tuus wrote:  I think

totus_tuus wrote:
  I think that the fruit of the tree was going to be given to them at some time.

How have you come to this conclusion?  If you accept that there actually was a tree, etc, then you presumably believe the Bible is generally true. To start making things up is actually blasphemy. And then you have to fit it in to the entire Doctrine, and you have to defend it against the many Xian denominations that disagree.

 

Wouldn't it be easier to say that the story is just a myth?

 

 

I am always amazed at people who feel it is quite appropriate to take out the parts of the Bible that they can fit into their personal religion, reject the rest and still claim they believe the Bible.  Anyone else see a contradiction?

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
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Two_Sandals wrote:Now the

Two_Sandals wrote:
Now the entire concept of christianity is based on the how god needed a blood sacrifice of his son in order to subside his wrath against us for eating the forbidden fruit. By sinning and disobeying him, god caused sin to enter the world, as to say the world was without sin prior to that event. How could adam and eve sin, if sin was not yet in the world? This can't be said to be a metaphor, because as i stated christianity is based on this concept.

In fact there had to be a prior event of Satan (Lucifer) and his angels falling from the way of god as Christianity portrays the snake as him. There is of course no mention of such a war or falling out prior to this event. The Jews wisely saw this and created other books such as The Books of Adam & Eve and Enoch to account for some of this discrepancy. None of those books are in the Canon of Christianity or Judaism, so ends are left loose. The last thing said when god had finished creating it all was that it was very good. Somewhere along the line he deviously designed evil into the equation as he proudly takes credit for it in Isaiah 45:7-"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord God do all these things." Evil begets evil, God indicted himself.

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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Paradox of sin...

That part bothered me since I was a kid... if they were created innocent, how could they know that disobedience was wrong?

Genesis wrote:

3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 
3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 
3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Thus far, all the serpent did was tell the truth...

The next part to me is the kicker... it seems to say that the snake was right, and god kicked the kids out of the garden because he was afraid they would gain immortality and become rivals...

Genesis wrote:

3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

LC >;-}>

 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacrements of canibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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Yeah LC, I AM taking

  Yeah LC,  I AM taking sides with the honest snake, god of abe is a lunatic trickster not worth a bit of trust .... In fact,  kill that murderer ! That ain't god I AM god AS YOU , I hope you know ..... 

 .... The bible seems like it was partly inspired as a way for the elders to scare the "kids" into behaving, some what like the "folklore of reincarnation", you better be nice or else ! Santa Clause too ....  What's next ? Science of diet plus exercise, and we are "ONE" , as our brother ancestors, big J/B "intuition" suggested  !   

I AM a bit proud of our J/B !   


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totus_tuus there is a big

totus_tuus there is a big difference. Your mum did not know that you were going to eat them. God had to know what would happen.

It's like dropping a glass and blaming gravity for it breaking, you knew what would happen, so it is your fault. If your God did exist and he is omnipotent and omniscient, then everything is his fault because he knew what woiuld happen and he had the power to change it.

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Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51


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ronin-dog

ronin-dog wrote:

totus_tuus there is a big difference. Your mum did not know that you were going to eat them. God had to know what would happen.

It's like dropping a glass and blaming gravity for it breaking, you knew what would happen, so it is your fault. If your God did exist and he is omnipotent and omniscient, then everything is his fault because he knew what woiuld happen and he had the power to change it.

  Good Analogy!

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Two_Sandals wrote:Thats a

Two_Sandals wrote:
Thats a different situation though. There is a purpose behind why the cherries are there. There is no conceivable reason for the tree of life to be in the garden of eden except for the fall of man. God didn't place it there for some of his friends to eat from it. He being omniscience knew that if he put it there man would fall.

The contention that there is no reason for the existence of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is unfounded.  God made all of Creation and pronounced it good, deceit in and of itself is not good.  How do you know that God didn't have it in mind, at some future time, to share the fruit of the tree with Adam and Eve?   I contend that that is indeed the case. 

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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Two_Sandals wrote:It's just

Two_Sandals wrote:
It's just like the greek's pandoras box. A story to explain why there is evil in the world.

Pandora's box is more about how women (and thus trouble) came into the world, but there's certainly a parallel. Both stories are more understandable as metaphors anyway. When you're an infant, you haven't gained knowledge, but once you have the knowledge, you know you're naked, and you have to leave the abundance and protection of childhood. Trying to understand myth literally is far too difficult.

The idea of original sin is so distasteful because it's another mechanism of control. If you're told you've sinned, and the only way to get better is to subscribe to the notion that you have to pay the church to keep you in good stead, that's pretty convenient for the church.

Will: no gyration without funkstification.


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daedalus wrote:How have you

daedalus wrote:
How have you come to this conclusion?

God made the plants, each according to their own kind and pronounced them good.  Deceit, for its own sake is not good, therefore the tree must have had some purpose.  Is it my interpretation?  Yes.  Is it any less valid than your conspiracy theory?  No.

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If you accept that there actually was a tree, etc, then you presumably believe the Bible is generally true.

I accept that there was some act which our original ancestors were forbidden to perform, in which act they particiapted of their own free will.  As for the truth of Scriptures, I believe that "that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings  for the sake of salvation." (Dei Verbum, Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, Nov 1965)  This does not require me to literalistically interpret every word of the Bible.

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To start making things up is actually blasphemy.

Heresy, actually, I would think.  But I've made nothing up.  My intepretation in no way violates the spirit of the text.

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And then you have to fit it in to the entire Doctrine, and you have to defend it against the many Xian denominations that disagree.

I have no authority to define an dogma of doctrine.  My interpretation of the text violates no teaching of the Catholic Church.  I have no worries about any other denomination which has no roots any deeper than 500 years.

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Wouldn't it be easier to say that the story is just a myth?

Much.  But it would be contrary to what I know to be the truth.  It would be akin to believing in a 6000 year old universe instead of a 15 billion year old universe because it's easier, but again, it just ain't so.

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I am always amazed at people who feel it is quite appropriate to take out the parts of the Bible that they can fit into their personal religion, reject the rest and still claim they believe the Bible.

I actually think that you're the one separating the story of the Fall from the story of Creation and not reading the text as a whole.  Please demonstrate where my interpretation does any violence whatsoever to the text.

 

 

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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totus_tuus wrote:The

totus_tuus wrote:

The contention that there is no reason for the existence of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is unfounded.  God made all of Creation and pronounced it good, deceit in and of itself is not good.  How do you know that God didn't have it in mind, at some future time, to share the fruit of the tree with Adam and Eve?   I contend that that is indeed the case. 

I can't believe you're saying all this stuff about that make-believe tree, lol. And I never knew this god had a mind?

I'm not trying to sound mean or anything; But the next time you think of The Apple Tree Of Knowledge just stop and really think about the whole fable and how ridiculous it all sounds.

If someone walked up to you and asked you why do we pass away, or why women have menstrual cycles? Please tell me you wouldn't bring up this storying about a man and a woman on an apple hunt...

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"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called Insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion, it is called Religion." - Robert M. Pirsig,


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Ronin-dog, it's great to see

Ronin-dog, it's great to see you again.

ronin-dog wrote:
totus_tuus there is a big difference. Your mum did not know that you were going to eat them. God had to know what would happen.

My friend, if there is any being this side of eternity approaching omniscience, its is without a doubt, the human mother.  She knew that there was a distinct possibility, and while I admit that it's not omniscience, her abilities were eerily close.

If God didn't intend for us to have knowledge of good and evil, why create a tool for introducing it to us in the first place?  Clearly, the methodology of our attining that knowledge was not what he intended, but that we recieved that knowledge was clearly his intent.  If this act ruined His creation, He could have simmply started all over agin, but He didn't.  I mean, it's not like He doesn't have enought ime on His hands to brew up another universe.

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It's like dropping a glass and blaming gravity for it breaking, you knew what would happen, so it is your fault. If your God did exist and he is omnipotent and omniscient, then everything is his fault because he knew what woiuld happen and he had the power to change it.

Exactly!  Which he did through the saving mission of Jesus Christ.  No we're getting somewhere.  LOL!

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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Slimm wrote:I can't believe

Slimm wrote:
I can't believe you're saying all this stuff about that make-believe tree, lol.

Please see my second paragarph in response to Daedakus above.  I'm not a biblical literalist.

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And I never knew this god had a mind?

He's a rational being, reasoning requires a mind.

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I'm not trying to sound mean or anything; But the next time you think of The Apple Tree Of Knowledge just stop and really think about the whole fable and how ridiculous it all sounds.

It's nothing more than an easy way to explain a difficult concept to a simple people.

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If someone walked up to you and asked you why do we pass away, or why women have menstrual cycles? Please tell me you wouldn't bring up this storying about a man and a woman on an apple hunt...

As for death, I would indeed take the position that death entered the world through a willful act of disobedience on the part of our orginal parents towards a deity.  Yes, indeed.

As for menstrual cycles, I'd probably take a more biological approach.  I've explained it several times already with pretty good results.

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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WOW

WOW


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totus_tuus wrote:Slimm

totus_tuus wrote:

Slimm wrote:
And I never knew this god had a mind?

He's a rational being, reasoning requires a mind.

I know, all those "He's" wrote the bible...

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"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called Insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion, it is called Religion." - Robert M. Pirsig,


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Slimm wrote:WOWI'm sure you

Slimm wrote:

WOW

I'm sure you can now appreciate why my favourite theist is LosingStreak06, whose object of worship is a smoothie. Way more interesting.

Will: no gyration without funkstification.


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totus_tuus wrote:The

totus_tuus wrote:
The contention that there is no reason for the existence of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is unfounded.  God made all of Creation and pronounced it good, deceit in and of itself is not good.  How do you know that God didn't have it in mind, at some future time, to share the fruit of the tree with Adam and Eve?   I contend that that is indeed the case. 

If God had some other plan with the tree of life but it was unable to come to pass due to the meddling of man, than he is not omniscient nor omnipotent. If you will concede that point than you theory is plausible.

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed with no evidence." Christopher Hitchens


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He could have also made the

He could have also made the tree really high and impossible to climb - that way he could still bring the fruit down but they couldn't take it. And by the way, if reproduction didn't happen until "after the fall", how the fuck was there fruit in the first place?

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."
Richard Dawkins


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