For those who believe the bible is our primary source of morality
Offline If you believe we don't/shouldn't kill, steal, or lie because of the ten commandments, I'm curious: why don't you just bully, embarrass, or make fun of other people instead? You're not breaking any commandments as far as I can tell, so why should you feel any guilt about doing it rampantly? Unless there's a mention in the bible about this, there must be some reason independent from it as to why you're not getting your kicks from harmlessly annoying people whenever you feel like it.
However, if there is in fact mention of things of this nature it (admittedly I don't know since my attention span is too short to survive the thing front to back), are you not still making a personal decision as to whether or not to accept/discard the standards it commands of you?
(Yes I have no posts previous to this one, but as a long-time lurker I feel at home enough here to post this question. xD)
Because Jesus didn't do those things. Simple enough.
I think a better question is: if you are not doing these things because Jesus didn't do them, and only because Jesus didn't do them, how does that make you moral? You are not exercising any moral judgment, not following any dictate of conscience but rather slavishly obeying a higher authority. You are like an animal that doesn't leave the yard because it knows it is not supposed to. It doesn't know why it isn't supposed to and it doesn't even really know whether it is right or wrong to do so, it just obeys. That is religious morality.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
then is there no other reason these behaviors are immoral or unacceptable to you?
I don't know, aside from kicking over tables in the Temple Courtyard, the whole threat-of-hell thing seems to be a bit of bullying to me.
I seem to remember all those instances where JC deliberately embarrassed various Philistines...
Let's see, maybe telling an old woman that she was a dog wouldn't qualify as making fun of her.
Jesus was a bit of an asshole.
LC >:-}>
Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacrements of canibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.
The way I see it, those who claim religion is the reason for morality have morality completely incorrectly indefined. They claim without rules/rewards/punishments (as given by the bible) we would have no morals, but I have mine without even taking such things in to account. To me, morality is irrelivant of rules/rewards/punishment, but what one feels is right or wrong, so doing what one feels is wrong irregardless of rules/rewards/punishment is immoral. That is why the religious version of "morality" scares me. These people don't have morals as far as I see, just rules based on 2000 year old laws that allowed slavery, stoning, and hundreds of other things we see in modern times as immoral. If current laws were actually based on christian morals as per the bible, western societies laws would be indistinguishable from shangria law. The current morals and laws of western society just prove how incorrect and false religion in itself is.
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
actually i'm pretty sure average religious people have the same morals as everyone else, but are only mistaking the source of them. their behavior towards other people would be much the same (irrelevant of rules/rewards/punishment) with or without their religion, and i pose this question in hopes that they can surprise me with a good reason why this isn't so.
and, if i'm not mistaken, isn't 'morality' as defined by religion in a nutshell why we don't murder, rape, lie, and steal? the commandments is after all what people point to when they want to accredit morality to religion, and if bullying is immoral, it certainly hasn't been addressed there.
Let's say I'm handcuffed to a car. I see a kid go by with a lollipop that I desperately want to steal. I struggle and fight, but I can't break out of the handcuffs to go get the lollipop.
So the handcuffs are the reason why I didn't steal. Are they morals?
Of course not. So the above definition of morality is too simplistic.
From the Canadian Oxford dictionary: morals - Standards of behaviour; principles of right and wrong.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
yes, by this i mean a completely incorrect mislabeling, as in apart from the actual definition of what morality is.
but boy, sure is no shortage of similis to go around.
Agreed. We follow Jesus' example because that's what we are told to do.
He never harmed any people though. Hate the sin, not the sinner. I don't recall JC threatening hell to anyone.
Philistines..haha. I think you mean Pharisees. He did show them up, yes, but they needed to get off of their proud mentality.
He was testing her faith. Read here for a more detailed description.
Without religion, we would still have morality. There would be differences between that and religious morality, but the basics would be the same. Atheistic morality does exist, in one way it is rules that, when followed by people, make society function better as a whole, i.e. people live happier, more fulfilled lives. It could also be defined as a pact signed among members of society, i.e. "I won't kill you and you won't kill me", and "I won't steal from you and you won't steal from me", the basis of this being treat others as you yourself want to be treated. I would define Biblical morality as love God, love others. And by love I mean undying willingness to do anything for someone while wanting nothing in return. Remember, it's what Jesus did
Love YAHWEH. Love Others.
Great, religion is the new source of my morality and like Abraham ( who married his half-sister ), David , Solomon, etc I will now seek to gather to myself dozens ( if not hundreds ) of wives and concubines. Thank you God for your immutable moral principles.
When I die I want to go like my grandfather did, peaceful and in my sleep, not screaming like the passengers in his car.
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"Then he (Jesus ) will say to those on his left,'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" Matthew 25:41
When I die I want to go like my grandfather did, peaceful and in my sleep, not screaming like the passengers in his car.
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There is a simple answer to this. Virtually every faith in the world subscribes to some form of the golden rule ie. do to others what you would want them to do to you-Matt. 7:12. Most people don't want to be bullied, embarassed or made fun of so generally those are things to be avoided.
Name one place in the Bible the practice of polygamy was ever endorsed. God was working with people within cultures that had practices at odds with his perfect standard. In the ancient near east, your wealth was determined by the number of children you had and the size of your estate etc. More wives meant more children and thus more workers for your fields, livestock etc. God's moral standard is stated in Genesis, one man for one woman.
There are many more of god's rules handed down than just the 10 commandments. Don't have time to look them up but there were several pages of them. I seem to recall something about if a man rapes a virgin in a field he should pay her father 50 shekels and marry her.
If you want morals from the bible you really have to pick and choose.
The first thing Moses did when he brought the 10 commandments (1st edition) down from the mount was kill thousands of people. Then at god's command he and his followers commited mass genocide to get land for themselves.
If the only message you get from the bible is god is love, you are missing 99% of it.
(PS: god and Jesus are fictional characters anyway)
Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.
Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51
Christians don't live in a theocracy so that is why many of the laws of the Old Testament are no longer relevant. They governed a people who had their God has their ruler. why do the above actions bother you? Wouldn't they make sense in a survival of the fittest type of view? I seriously don't get the moral outrage of atheists.
my ATHEIST moral outrage is the lack of world morals .....
1,000,000 dead Iraq's. 10,000,000 injured. Mental suffering ????????????? But they is going too have an after life ! Religion is our poison ..... I AM OUTRAGED ......
2 Samuel 12:7-8
"Then Nathan said to David,'You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel says: I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more."
Also, Jacob, the father of the twelve tribes of Israel, Had two wives ( Rachel and Leah )....and two concubines ( Bilah and Zilpah ). All with God's blessing. Jacob's wives were also sisters which violates Leviticus 18:18...still no punishment from God.
Read Genesis 29:16 through Genesis 30:22 and you will read irrefutable proof that God not only approved the polygamous marriage but even went so far as to bless this arrangement by answering the prayers of Jacob's WIVES.
"When the Lord saw that Leah was not loved, he opened her womb, but Rachel was Barren."
"The Leah said, "God has rewarded me for giving my maidservant to my husband."
"Then God remembered Rachel ; he listened to her and opened her womb."
Also Abraham was married to Sarah, his half-sister. ( Genesis 20:12 ) Abraham was guilty of incest according to Leviticus 20:17 but was never punished by God.
One man for one woman? Ha, that's funny !
When I die I want to go like my grandfather did, peaceful and in my sleep, not screaming like the passengers in his car.
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To be honest, this is exactly what lead me away from christianity. What turned me from my religion was religion class in itself as we learnt about other religions. They all taught similar-ish things. The only difference essentially (as I saw it in 9th grade) was the dance we did, the words we said, the songs we sung. Stick the left foot in before the right foot, or stick the right foot in before the left foot. Surely any loving god wouldn't give a rats arse what foot we stuck in first, what specific words we said, or took part in the dance at all, as long as we were good as to the best of our abilities and beliefs as far as right and wrong? As long as we believed and meant what we said.
I was brought up roman catholic, religion class taught me about other forms of catholocism. Same god, same essential core teachings, different dance. That's all there is to it. If there is a god, surely it wouldn't care less about the dance, but more about whether you followed the teachings. Believing the pope is the head of the church or not, that is all that separates catholics from other christians, that is nothing more than a dance.
Whether the teachings come from the religion or from society, just follow your morals, follow what you believe is right and wrong. Think about them and analyse those beliefs for yourself. See, know, understand why you believe them. I sought, I analized, I learnt that to me homosexuality (something I once thought was wrong) is now no different to me than taste in foods, cars, art, even colours. It's just a matter of taste as to what sort of person you're attracted to similar to the colours you're attracted to, or the food, the cars etc. Love being a stronger emotion simply brings on stronger feelings for that taste.
So what makes christianity so real? Nothing. Society has moved beyond needing it. It moved beyond needing it a few hundred years ago. The same morals and beliefs apply with or without religion. The American constitution is proof of that. The simple answer is this, religion isn't needed.
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
So you're not consciously or intentionally moral.
You are only consciously and intentionally submissive.
No one, including Jesus, has to overtly threaten hellfire because the threat is implied. It's much the same as this familiar kind of threat:
"Hey, mack. This is a nice little store you got here.... would be a real shame if something happened to it."
"Hello, my son. You are a beautiful child of god, and I want you to join me in heaven... (though it would be a real shame if you chose not to accept...)"
Yes, how dare you pharisees go around telling people that you are the only means by which to contact my father! I will destroy this stupid and arrogant system of yours and sacrifice myself so that ALL people can contact my father whenever they want!
(But only through me, which is the purported point of the sacrifice, but ssshhh....)
I tried that excuse once when I got caught teepeeing a house.
"I was only testing her faith, officer."
Doesn't work. Only works for Jesus because he has a rich daddy. =P
Well as long as we're just allowed to define things however we like, I define Biblical morality as "do and believe whatever God tells you, because God tells you that doing and believing whatever he tells you is moral, and you must believe this as a first requirement, and you will do so, even though the first requirement technically doesn't fall within the range of the things god said were moral to do and believe, but you must do it anyway and believe that it is also moral, because everything that god says is good and moral, because god says so, and you believe everything god says, because he told you to, ad infinitum...."
"When did I realize I was God? Well, one day I was praying and I realized I was talking to myself."
This letter is to inform you that the base elements of the ten commandments --do not kill, lie, steal-- existed in hunter/gatherer societys, without these morals their tribes simply could not survive. For thousands of generations the tribes of cro-magnons thrived without verbal or written language and more importantly without your religious dogmas. When Jesus held his mini riot in the temple market why didn't the local securty people stop him? Answer; his followers were nearby and numerous and ARMED!!! Don't believe me? Then try this; What did St.Peter do first when the Roman soldiers came to arrest J.C.? Why didn't the Romans hack Peter into small bits. Answer; 5 Roman soldiers vs. 7 ARMED apostles, the Romans weren't stupid, or maybe; just maybe the story is myth.
jeffrick
Some more choice laws from god (Leviticus):
For every one that curses his mother or father shall surely be put to death.
the man that commiteth adultery with another man's wife... the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
If a man lie with mankind as he lieth with a women.... they shall surely be put to death.
if a man take a wife and her mother they shall be burnt with fire
etc, etc
and why doesn't anyone make burnt offerings to god anymore? It specifically states that you have to do it in the bible!
Just as well we don't live in a theocracy
Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.
Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51
We are both. First, we are told what is right and wrong by God, therefore that is what we follow. Secondly, we want to be moral (as defined by the Bible) to please God.
Somehow I doubt you have any evidence for your nice little Jesus army theory
.
It is amazing how strict the OT laws are (I honestly wouldn't do very well at following them), but because we are no longer saved by the law we are no longer bound to it. We are under a new covenant by the grace of Jesus, and we are given His free gift of salvation.
Love YAHWEH. Love Others.
Hey Ed , I AM JESUS , I AM GOD , I worship nothing ..... All is ONE .... Idol worship is dogma .... wake up and be god too .... a saving message from big J , and Buddha too.
We are GOD ! 
Can ya feel it !
No, you're only submissive. Try substituting the word "god" with another name.
I, Archeopteryx, for example, say that everything I ask of people is only asking them to be moral.
First, I require that no one take showers on Thursdays. If they must clean themselves, they must do it with a moist rag (but only blue rags may be used!).
I require that people never sleep more than 7 hours. Sleeping more than 7 hours is sinful. Set your alarms accordingly.
I require that people never speak of, nor ever even think about, polar bears. Did you just think of one? Pff. Sinner.
Most importantly, I require that people give me 10% of their weekly income.
If you do these things, then you are moral, because morality is whatever I say it is. If you do not do these things, then you are immoral, and you will be fed to ravenous grizzly bears, because not doing these things is immoral, because if I say something is immoral, then it is.
Submissive. =]
"When did I realize I was God? Well, one day I was praying and I realized I was talking to myself."
Actually, apart from the rules jesus specifically changed, like working on the sabath, he said the old laws were fine.
If you are freed from the old testament, why do you still follow the 10 commandments? Why is the old commandment still preached?
Christians pick and choose what suits them, but then still claim that the bible is the work of god and can't be argued with. If you are christian, muslim or Jew the old testament is the foundation of your religion. Surely if it is the word of god it is either all true and good or not.
Ignoring the embaressing bits is like living in a luxury apartment on top of a structurally unsound, crumbling old building and saying, "oh, don't worry about the old bit, my bit is sweet!"
Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.
Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51
then why should our reasons for avoiding doing these things go beyond that? if Matt 7:12 really had any influence on peoples' conduct toward others, then surely it came to mind back in the sandbox days when you were deciding whether or not to push the fat kid down? let's admit it, your motives for doing it and the adult's reasons for punishing you would have been identical without the bible ever existing.
the fittest also includes those who are best advantaged to reproduce. think about who a woman is more likely to want to have her children with: a murderous brute, or a principled gentleman?