i hate religion but i love god...

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i hate religion but i love god...

anyone else here get really fucking irritated when someone says that to them?

 

i mean, not that it can't be a valid viewpoint, especially for the pantheist or mystic, but usually the people who say that to me are evangelical christians who want to act like they're "radical" or "cool" and that they somehow understand me or something, even though i know for a fact that those same people are in church everytime the doors open, dutifully taking notes on everything their "cool," youngish, polo-shirted pastor who secretly lusts after all the teenage girls in youth group says.  you know the kind.  they drive VWs with icthuses on the back while listening to jars of clay on their ipod docks, play hacky sack, and call each other "bro."  for some reason the guys always seem to enjoy smacking each other's asses a lot (at least that's what i've observed).  oh, and they all think they can play the fucking guitar.  and they can't.  but, whenever one used to visit my dorm room in college, that never stopped him from picking up my $900 martin uninvited, straining to remember the basic chords so he could plod his way through some piece of shit by bebo norman or something.

 

i think they usually use that line because they want to distance themselves from the more hardline fundies but actually, in a funny way, i would respect them more if they were hardline fundies.  i wouldn't necessarily like them (i probably don't like them already anyway), but at least i wouldn't see them as slimey sycophants.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Eloise wrote: It's

Eloise wrote:

 

It's Panentheism, actually, so the influence is Heraclitus, Cordevero, Shaivism,Native American thought etc. I'm into Process philosophy basically

 

wow.  i feel like an ass.  i actually had to google "panentheism," and here i am with a degree in religion.  i'm familiar with the concept, but i never heard the word.

 

of course i know heraclitus.  i'm into jewish studies and kabbalah (as in studying about it and its development, not practising it), so i know moses cordovero too.  that's actually the first time i've ever seen him mentioned on an online forum.  i'm familiar with shaivism, but more knowledgable of advaita vedanta.  jesus, all that and you think i would have heard that term somewhere.  score 10 humility points for me.

 

have you read about hasidism or the baal shem tov?  i think you would be interested in it, since the hasidim have the concept of "releasing pieces of god" that are trapped in the physical world by performing mitzvot.  i would recommend either "the way of man according to hasidism" or "tales of the hasidim," both by martin buber.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Eloise wrote:MattShizzle

Eloise wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:

WTF is POM?

It means British, it's an old slang acronym for Prisoner of Her/His Majesty. Aussies shorten everything, mostly cause we are a totally anti-formal culture it's not generally intended to offend, though sometimes it does. In retrospect I hope Jacob wasn't offended, I avoid using the usual term for American because I'm almost sure none of you will like it, even though I'd never really intend it in a derogatory fashion. 

 

 

 

 

this made me recall the old monty python sketch about the australian university.  they take on a new professor from the UK and he's greeted with, "i'd like to welcome the pommy bastard to god's own earth!"

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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I'm so sad I'm late on this

I'm so sad I'm late on this thread for this description alone:

iwbiek wrote:
... "cool," youngish, polo-shirted pastor who secretly lusts after all the teenage girls in youth group says.  you know the kind.  they drive VWs with icthuses on the back while listening to jars of clay on their ipod docks, play hacky sack, and call each other "bro."  for some reason the guys always seem to enjoy smacking each other's asses a lot (at least that's what i've observed).  oh, and they all think they can play the fucking guitar.  and they can't.

That's so accurate it's disgusting. I knew two such jackasses. I started laughing hysterically at "bro". Because holy shit, what IS that?

 

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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greek goddess wrote: Thus,

greek goddess wrote:
 Thus, I've had a lot of firsthand access to Christianity by posing as an "insider."

I think a lot of us would say that. Mine was Catholocism. You learn a lot of rituals ... and then you never return.

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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latincanuck wrote:I have

latincanuck wrote:
I have never encountered one of these types of youth pastors......then again living in Canada it does get cold

Seriously? The guys who match the description *exactly* were at a summer camp in Ontario. It was a bible camp, and I was there playing drums for some "Jesus is awesome" bullshit. (Whatever, they paid me.) The bass player, that asshole, comes out with "oh, talk to Will, he's an ATHEIST." I saw the most pathetic looks after that. Oh, how my soul was damn-ed in the saucer eyes of these "bro"-spouting dickheads. One of them spent the rest of the night trying his best to make me see the light. It was terrible hard on him.

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HisWillness

HisWillness wrote:

 

Seriously? The guys who match the description *exactly* were at a summer camp in Ontario. It was a bible camp, and I was there playing drums for some "Jesus is awesome" bullshit. (Whatever, they paid me.) The bass player, that asshole, comes out with "oh, talk to Will, he's an ATHEIST." I saw the most pathetic looks after that. Oh, how my soul was damn-ed in the saucer eyes of these "bro"-spouting dickheads. One of them spent the rest of the night trying his best to make me see the light. It was terrible hard on him.

That's classic. I would go mad after half an hour of the bro god squad trying to convert me. However much they paid you, it wasn't enough. Not the most polite thing for him to broadcast your atheism as a problem,but who cares about politeness when you're saving souls. I don't know who to feel more sorry for, you or the kid.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Loc wrote:Not the most

Loc wrote:
Not the most polite thing for him to broadcast your atheism as a problem,but who cares about politeness when you're saving souls.

The bass player was a friend of mine, so he was just causing trouble.

Loc wrote:
I don't know who to feel more sorry for, you or the kid.

Definitely the kid. I was the weirdest person he ever met. Clearly he didn't get out much, because I'm pretty tame as weirdos go.

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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HisWillness wrote:I'm so sad

HisWillness wrote:

I'm so sad I'm late on this thread for this description alone:

iwbiek wrote:
... "cool," youngish, polo-shirted pastor who secretly lusts after all the teenage girls in youth group says.  you know the kind.  they drive VWs with icthuses on the back while listening to jars of clay on their ipod docks, play hacky sack, and call each other "bro."  for some reason the guys always seem to enjoy smacking each other's asses a lot (at least that's what i've observed).  oh, and they all think they can play the fucking guitar.  and they can't.

That's so accurate it's disgusting. I knew two such jackasses. I started laughing hysterically at "bro". Because holy shit, what IS that?

 

 

i've seen legions of them in one place at the same time.  literally like clones.  american eagle-wearing clones.

 

but it is symptomatic of what is, in my opinion, the biggest hypocrisy of christianity, worse than any of the guys getting blowjobs and then insisting they're "saving themselves": it's the whole "we love the whole world, we wanna help the whole world, but we're rich white kids who can't live without starbucks and support a capitalist, neo-fascist regime because bush is against homos and baby-killing" conundrum.  they really try so hard to look compassionate, and i think they know deep down that their values system isn't compatible with that, so they try to create a sort of conservative counter-culture (an oxymoron in my opinion) to make them feel like they're kids who really care.  BUT just try to bring up america/nato's economic deathgrip on the third world, neo-colonialism, the unjust embargo against cuba, the completely unwarranted crusade to keep iran from nuclear energy, israeli apartheid, etc., etc. and they fall back on their bibles (usually in nifty nylon zip-up covers) to point out (veeerrry selectively) that bush must be from god because he's against gay marriage and abortion (neither of which are even addressed in the bible, bear in mind), because he supports israel and they're "the people of god" (never mind that it is HIGHLY problematic to automatically equate the hebrew bible's "people of israel" with the modern state of israel, and impossible to prove that the modern-day jews are actually blood descendants of the ancient hebrews--even some jewish scholars admit this), and, most importantly, because he says he is.

 

jesus's sayings about social justice?  forget it.  you never hear those pages and pages quoted.  only those few isolated verses that soothe their stunted social consciences.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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  Yeah iwbiek, what a mess

  Yeah iwbiek, what a mess the world is in !  Why is we so mostly stupid ???

All religions, with their gods, demigods, prophets, messiahs and saints, are the product of the fancy and credulity of men who have not yet reached the full development and complete possession of their intellectual powers.
- Mikhail Bakunin

It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan

Incurably religious, that is the best way to describe the mental condition of so many people. - Thomas Edison

     


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iwbiek wrote:i've seen

iwbiek wrote:

i've seen legions of them in one place at the same time.  literally like clones.  american eagle-wearing clones.

but it is symptomatic of what is, in my opinion, the biggest hypocrisy of christianity, worse than any of the guys getting blowjobs and then insisting they're "saving themselves": it's the whole "we love the whole world, we wanna help the whole world, but we're rich white kids who can't live without starbucks and support a capitalist, neo-fascist regime because bush is against homos and baby-killing" conundrum.  they really try so hard to look compassionate, and i think they know deep down that their values system isn't compatible with that, so they try to create a sort of conservative counter-culture (an oxymoron in my opinion) to make them feel like they're kids who really care.  BUT just try to bring up america/nato's economic deathgrip on the third world, neo-colonialism, the unjust embargo against cuba, the completely unwarranted crusade to keep iran from nuclear energy, israeli apartheid, etc., etc. and they fall back on their bibles (usually in nifty nylon zip-up covers) to point out (veeerrry selectively) that bush must be from god because he's against gay marriage and abortion (neither of which are even addressed in the bible, bear in mind), because he supports israel and they're "the people of god" (never mind that it is HIGHLY problematic to automatically equate the hebrew bible's "people of israel" with the modern state of israel, and impossible to prove that the modern-day jews are actually blood descendants of the ancient hebrews--even some jewish scholars admit this), and, most importantly, because he says he is.

jesus's sayings about social justice?  forget it.  you never hear those pages and pages quoted.  only those few isolated verses that soothe their stunted social consciences.

I don't usually re-post an entire block of text like above, but I literally laughed through the whole thing. Thanks for the rant. So true.

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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HisWillness wrote:I don't

HisWillness wrote:

I don't usually re-post an entire block of text like above, but I literally laughed through the whole thing. Thanks for the rant. So true.

 

thanks.  i'm kinda like sam kinison.

 

except my voice and mannerisms don't make you want to fucking kill me. 

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:thanks.  i'm

iwbiek wrote:

thanks.  i'm kinda like sam kinison.

except my voice and mannerisms don't make you want to fucking kill me. 

So like ... Bill Hicks?

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Quote:Is she right?Cause I

Quote:

Is she right?


Cause I know that's what the popular version of what went on over there is.


I know a lot of people like to believe that.


I wish I could, but I was there.


I wasn't here in a classroom hoping I was right...thinking about it.


I was...UP TO MY KNEES IN RICE PADDIES, WITH GUNS, GOING UP AGAINST CHARLIE, SLUGGING IT OUT WITH HIM, WHILE PUSSIES...LIKE...YOU WERE BACK HERE PARTYING, PUTTING HEADBANDS ON, DOING DRUGS, LISTENING TO THE GOD DAMN BEATLE ALBUMS!  AUGH...AUGH...AUGH.

RIP Sam

 

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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So.. They Hate religion but

So.. They Hate religion but love the central point to having one?  If that's the case they will have to redefine just what "God" is.  Religion is an absolutist philosophy and God is an Absolutist authority.  If you want the God of the bible you can't really have one without the other.

 

A little off topic, but I realized the difference between schizophrenia and theism.  In schizophrenia you suffer your own personal insanity, in theism you just subscribe to someone else's.

To go beyond your limits you must first find them.


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iwbiek wrote:.[..]they try

iwbiek wrote:

.[..]they try to create a sort of conservative counter-culture (an oxymoron in my opinion)[...]

True, but I think compassionate conservatism is an even bigger oxymoron. 


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jmm wrote:iwbiek

jmm wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

.[..]they try to create a sort of conservative counter-culture (an oxymoron in my opinion)[...]

True, but I think compassionate conservatism is an even bigger oxymoron. 

 

exactly, which is what i meant when i said that deep down they know that their desire to look compassionate is not compatible with their absolutist values system.  however, they seem to think that aping the typical american counter-culture, i.e., novelty t-shirts, hemp bracelets, hacky sacks, clever bumper stickers, efficient cars, skateboards, etc., will lump them in people's subconscious with the greenpeace crowd and thus make them look compassionate.

 

now, i personally believe even the genuine american counter-culture is not truly compassionate but also nothing more than rich white kids who feel guilty about being rich white kids and thus grow dreadlocks and join the peace corps for a couple years and think they're doing the world a big fucking favor.  my friend brian once put it aptly: "isn't it kinda cruel to go off to africa and give 'em a sandwich and leave?  it's like saying, 'hey, that's a good goddamn sandwich, ain't it?  i eat like this every day, motherfucker!'"

 

so the christians are even more pathetic because the "compassion" they ape is just as self-serving as they are.  if they really want to appear compassionate, they should ape someone like Patrice Lumumba rather than fucking Bono. 

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson