i hate religion but i love god...

iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
i hate religion but i love god...

anyone else here get really fucking irritated when someone says that to them?

 

i mean, not that it can't be a valid viewpoint, especially for the pantheist or mystic, but usually the people who say that to me are evangelical christians who want to act like they're "radical" or "cool" and that they somehow understand me or something, even though i know for a fact that those same people are in church everytime the doors open, dutifully taking notes on everything their "cool," youngish, polo-shirted pastor who secretly lusts after all the teenage girls in youth group says.  you know the kind.  they drive VWs with icthuses on the back while listening to jars of clay on their ipod docks, play hacky sack, and call each other "bro."  for some reason the guys always seem to enjoy smacking each other's asses a lot (at least that's what i've observed).  oh, and they all think they can play the fucking guitar.  and they can't.  but, whenever one used to visit my dorm room in college, that never stopped him from picking up my $900 martin uninvited, straining to remember the basic chords so he could plod his way through some piece of shit by bebo norman or something.

 

i think they usually use that line because they want to distance themselves from the more hardline fundies but actually, in a funny way, i would respect them more if they were hardline fundies.  i wouldn't necessarily like them (i probably don't like them already anyway), but at least i wouldn't see them as slimey sycophants.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


stuntgibbon
Moderator
stuntgibbon's picture
Posts: 699
Joined: 2007-05-17
User is offlineOffline
Do you also feel god burning

Do you also feel god burning in your loins?


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
stuntgibbon wrote:Do you

stuntgibbon wrote:

Do you also feel god burning in your loins?

 

did you actually read the post or just look at the title?  cuz i fail to see the point, hoss...

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


stuntgibbon
Moderator
stuntgibbon's picture
Posts: 699
Joined: 2007-05-17
User is offlineOffline
I was posing another

I was posing another possible response, chief. 


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
stuntgibbon wrote:I was

stuntgibbon wrote:

I was posing another possible response, chief. 

 

i see.  you'll have to excuse me.  subtlety is completely wasted on me.  thanks, b.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


Watcher
atheist
Posts: 2326
Joined: 2007-07-10
User is offlineOffline
iwbiek wrote:i think they

iwbiek wrote:

i think they usually use that line because they want to distance themselves from the more hardline fundies but actually, in a funny way, i would respect them more if they were hardline fundies.  i wouldn't necessarily like them (i probably don't like them already anyway), but at least i wouldn't see them as slimey sycophants.

I agree.  This reminds me of a line from the movie Hamburger Hill.  There was some interviewer asking questions at the bottom.  One soldier stops him and says something like, "I have more respect for those little bastards up there than for you.  At least they took a side.  You just take pictures."

Pick a side you little bastards.  Don't avoid the confrontation.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


Loc
Superfan
Loc's picture
Posts: 1130
Joined: 2007-11-06
User is offlineOffline
Wow you perfectly described

Wow you perfectly described 98% of the christians I've ever known. Do you live near me?(Not really.I'm not even in America) Seriously,that was uncanny.Are they all clones or something?

On point, I absolutley hate this 'argument' And everytime I've heard it it's been from the most brainwashed and evangical of the chrsitians I know. It's like they think"if I relate to him he'll totally get saved." As soon as you mention anything to do with religion/theism/the movie you saw, you get"OMG I HATE RELIGION!!!!! I HAS A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP!!!!!"

First, actually learn the definition of religion, and you will see that wwhat you do is in fact religion. Then realize I don't care what you call it, you're still a crazy deluded person.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
Loc wrote:Wow you perfectly

Loc wrote:

Wow you perfectly described 98% of the christians I've ever known. Do you live near me?(Not really.I'm not even in America) Seriously,that was uncanny.Are they all clones or something?

 

well, i grew up in eastern kentucky, which is on the fringe of the "bible belt."  there are a lot of crazy brainwashed fundies there, but also a surprising number of freethinking people, most of whom are poor farmers and laborers, among them my father, who believes in god and the bible but never pretends to be able to interpret it and absolutely will not set foot in a church.  he doesn't consider himself "saved" either, nor does he believe in hell.

 

the bible belt really starts to get scary when you go further south, into tennessee, where my mother lives now (unfortunately).  that is where you start to see big billboards that say HELL IS REAL.  i once went to a church service down there where the pastor denounced everything from homosexuals ("faggots," as he called them) to global warming to (i shit you not) skim milk.

 

in both kentucky and tennessee you can find the irritating christian pop culture i described, which pretends to be "intellectual" and "relevant," yet carries a heavy agenda.  that is why the crazy fundies irritate me less: they are openly anti-intellectual and don't even try to win you over with "reasoned" arguments.  they just beat you over the fuckin' head with bible verses, whereas the "new" evangelicals try to distract you with half-baked "philosophy" while they administer an enema of bible verses.  i went to college in kentucky and that's where i really became familiar with this group.

 

now i've lived in slovakia for the past 4 years, am married to a slovak, and am extremely comfortable in liberal europe.  i have no plans ever to return to the USA to live.  where are you from and where do you live?  i once knew a vietnamese guy named Loc.  sadly, he was one of those christians too.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


I AM GOD AS YOU
Superfan
Posts: 4793
Joined: 2007-09-29
User is offlineOffline
  I AM GOD, and when I add

  I AM GOD, and when I add it all up, I overwhelmingly hate me. So I try to "love the enemy", ME ......   


Loc
Superfan
Loc's picture
Posts: 1130
Joined: 2007-11-06
User is offlineOffline
iwbiek wrote:now i've lived

iwbiek wrote:

now i've lived in slovakia for the past 4 years, am married to a slovak, and am extremely comfortable in liberal europe.  i have no plans ever to return to the USA to live.  where are you from and where do you live?  i once knew a vietnamese guy named Loc.  sadly, he was one of those christians too.

I live in South Africa.Loc actually has nothing to do with my real name, so not Vietnmese. There are a lot of christians here, and you get the fundies and the liberals. I think it's a lot like America religon wise, except relgion never gets mentioned in politics here.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:  I

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

  I AM GOD, and when I add it all up, I overwhelmingly hate me. So I try to "love the enemy", ME ......   

 

you know, all the teachers who had the realization you claim to have had don't seem to harp on it near as much.

 

om shanti shanti...

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


I AM GOD AS YOU
Superfan
Posts: 4793
Joined: 2007-09-29
User is offlineOffline
You are are least half

  You are at least half right iwbiek,    I AM indeed a loud mouth dumb ass ! 


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:  You

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

  You are at least half right iwbiek,    I AM indeed a loud mouth dumb ass ! 

 

well, considering the half i'm right about, i never said any of it.  what's the half i'm wrong about?

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


I AM GOD AS YOU
Superfan
Posts: 4793
Joined: 2007-09-29
User is offlineOffline
ummm , "all the teachers"

  ummm ?  , "all the teachers" ! 


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
I AM GOD AS YOU wrote: 

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

  ummm ?  , "all the teachers" ! 

 

fair enough.  all the ones i've read then.  but i've read quite a few.  all of them preferred to stay quiet.  i think it's basic human experience that god stays quiet.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
What would someone who hates

What would someone who hates God but loves religion be? I know - the theists streotype of an atheist.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


greek goddess
Rational VIP!Science Freak
greek goddess's picture
Posts: 361
Joined: 2008-01-26
User is offlineOffline
First of all, I had to laugh

First of all, I had to laugh at your description of youth pastors - at least from my experiences, it is truly dead-on! They also have a penchant for those hawaiian-print shirts that went out of style like 8 years ago, birkenstock sandals, and the word "awesome" - as in "Jesus made such an awesome, awesome sacrifice for us" or "Let us praise the awesomeness that is God" or "God's love for us is so incomprehensible.. it's just awesome."

But to get to the real point, I feel like the line that you quoted is a big part of the movement to make the church cool or hip. There are sort of two driving forces for the "cool" movement, which I will attempt to elaborate.

The first is the fact that young adults/teens are attracted to "worldly" things. The church recognizes that young people are influenced by the media, and are drawn to "evil" vices like alcohol, sex, music with explicit lyrics, sexy clothes/makeup/etc, and probably other stuff that I'm omitting. In order to counteract this effect and to prevent young people sinning, or worse, turning away from god entirely, the church attempts to replace these vices with a Christian counterpart so that the young person can be immersed in Christian culture, yet not feel like they're missing out on heathen experiences. (I think this is horribly ironic, because these actions totally defy Paul's advice to be "in the world, but not of the world.&quotEye-wink Anyways, this is the motive behind all the youth pastors attempting to be hip (and failing miserably), the Christian music, the purity rings, the church retreats... instead of making kids feel deprived of something, put a "cool" spin on it so that suddenly they're proud of their deprivation.

The other driving force is the church's realization that we are not a homogenous society. More than ever, young people are defining themselves by their uniqueness and by their differences. Teens don't all listen to the same music, don't all wear the same style of clothing,.. why should they all have the same God experience? In my middle & high school youth groups, they really did emphasize the point that each person's relationship with God is different. (Holy shit, someone stop me from singing "Personal Jesus!"  lol ) The church encourages young people to do a lot of soul-searching and private study and prayer in order to forge a personal relationship with God.

This approach is something that is new to my generation, as evidenced by the differences between my "God experience" and my dad's. When my dad was growing up, there was only one flavor of God. You went to church every week, and prayed with your family before dinner each night - and maybe said a quick prayer before bed. That was pretty much it. God was this entity that you worshipped because you were sort of scared of him and the powers he wields. But when I got to age 13/14, and was going through confirmation classes, I was encouraged to seek God on my own terms... and so I spent time spilling out my problems to God in prayer, and meditating, all that good stuff. It was no longer enough to just go through the motions of going to church and saying a cordial prayer once in awhile. God is supposed to be your best friend; you're supposed to be obsessed with God and have him on your mind all the time; he's supposed to be the focal point of your life.

Anyways, I think this whole "personal relationship" movement is what causes people to say they love God and hate religion. It's because the church has become sort of "decentralized." With maybe the exception of the Catholic church, you generally don't need the church to act as a "middleman" between you and God anymore, because you're supposed to do all this personal soul-searching and studyn in your own private time. Hence, people feel that they actually personally know God, and church is no longer necessary exposure to god, but rather, a good place to show up for external guidance for one's "journey," meet up with like-minded people and eat donuts.

I still think they're totally wrong... I mean if you really were disaffiliated from religion, you wouldn't worship Christ specifically, but rather adopt a more Jewish stance or something at the very least. They're still Christian, whether they want to admit it or not.


illeatyourdog
illeatyourdog's picture
Posts: 580
Joined: 2007-07-20
User is offlineOffline
This reminds me of an

This reminds me of an equally pointless distinction many Apologetics make in debates about God's, supposed, existence.  Whenever an opponent brings up religion, and the effects religion has, the Apologetic usually interjects by saying "I am not here to debate religion I am here to debate God" as if that, somehow, gets him out of the problem of having to account for the ritualisitc nature of "being in a relationship" with God.  This response is also made when Bible contradictions are brought up, however, it dressed a bit differently such as "I am not here to discuss the fine details of the Bible, I am here to debate God."  Why no one ever counters with "So the Bible is not the definitive account on God and we should look elsewhere?" is beyond me.

" Why does God always got such wacky shit to say? . . . When was the last time you heard somebody say 'look God told me to get a muffin and a cup tea and cool out man'?" - Dov Davidoff


Shaitian
Shaitian's picture
Posts: 386
Joined: 2006-07-15
User is offlineOffline
I don't know about any of

I don't know about any of you but i never had any youth pastor like what you described... All my youth pastors were decent but they didn't really talk bout god very much... i remeber Friday nights i use to hang out with my youth group. we would play pool and play cards (all the while betting)... I remeber multiple times being 12 or 13 years old and having him take me to movies that my mother or father would ever let me go see... hell i remeber sitting in our church for 3 days straight playing Final Fantasy 10 when it first came out...  when we would talk about god in my youth group it would last for probly ten minutes...

I dunno maybe its because i live in the backwoods of PA and that but i never had the hawian flip flop youth pastor. 

Prejudice is often no more than a lazy person's substitute for thinking - Aunt Tomee The more we sweat for peace the less we bleed for war - Vijaya Lakshmi Pandil|


jmm
Theist
jmm's picture
Posts: 837
Joined: 2007-03-03
User is offlineOffline
I think there's a huge bit

I think there's a huge bit of middle ground here.  Not everyone who says "I hate religion but love God" is the way you described them.  Sure, you run into quite a few of those types, but I just don't think you can make that kind of generalization. 

In fact, I think that phrase describes my own view to a certain extent.  I was hurt very badly by members of my church, yet I still pursue God.  I don't go to church, I don't wear Hawaiian or Polo shirts (I usually just wear plain t-shirts), I don't have an Ichthus emblem on my bumper, I don't even own an iPod (although I do listen to Jars of Clay for nostalgic reasons every few years), I don't call my male friends "bro", and I certainly don't smack them on the ass.  I'm just a regular person who's over the whole church thing but still pursues God. 

As with most things, there is a huge middle ground that you're neglecting.  Not all Christians are these insufferable caricatures that you've rendered. 


Watcher
atheist
Posts: 2326
Joined: 2007-07-10
User is offlineOffline
jmm wrote:I think there's a

jmm wrote:

I think there's a huge bit of middle ground here.  Not everyone who says "I hate religion but love God" is the way you described them.  Sure, you run into quite a few of those types, but I just don't think you can make that kind of generalization. 

In fact, I think that phrase describes my own view to a certain extent.  I was hurt very badly by members of my church, yet I still pursue God.  I don't go to church, I don't wear Hawaiian or Polo shirts (I usually just wear plain t-shirts), I don't have an Ichthus emblem on my bumper, I don't even own an iPod (although I do listen to Jars of Clay for nostalgic reasons every few years), I don't call my male friends "bro", and I certainly don't smack them on the ass.  I'm just a regular person who's over the whole church thing but still pursues God. 

As with most things, there is a huge middle ground that you're neglecting.  Not all Christians are these insufferable caricatures that you've rendered. 

jmm, for clarification purposes, are you saying that you consider yourself a "christian"?  This would indicate that you believe in the christian definition of what god is like and what its characteristics and abilities are.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


jmm
Theist
jmm's picture
Posts: 837
Joined: 2007-03-03
User is offlineOffline
Watcher wrote:jmm wrote:I

Watcher wrote:

jmm wrote:

I think there's a huge bit of middle ground here.  Not everyone who says "I hate religion but love God" is the way you described them.  Sure, you run into quite a few of those types, but I just don't think you can make that kind of generalization. 

In fact, I think that phrase describes my own view to a certain extent.  I was hurt very badly by members of my church, yet I still pursue God.  I don't go to church, I don't wear Hawaiian or Polo shirts (I usually just wear plain t-shirts), I don't have an Ichthus emblem on my bumper, I don't even own an iPod (although I do listen to Jars of Clay for nostalgic reasons every few years), I don't call my male friends "bro", and I certainly don't smack them on the ass.  I'm just a regular person who's over the whole church thing but still pursues God. 

As with most things, there is a huge middle ground that you're neglecting.  Not all Christians are these insufferable caricatures that you've rendered. 

jmm, for clarification purposes, are you saying that you consider yourself a "christian"?  This would indicate that you believe in the christian definition of what god is like and what its characteristics and abilities are.

Yes, I'm a Christian. 


Watcher
atheist
Posts: 2326
Joined: 2007-07-10
User is offlineOffline
jmm wrote:Yes, I'm a

jmm wrote:

Yes, I'm a Christian. 

Which Denomination?  Or will you say non-denominational?  Pretty much the same thing as "I'm about 95% exactly of the same belief as baptists as far as any christian belief".

I was raised baptist.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3132
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
iwbiek wrote:anyone else

iwbiek wrote:

anyone else here get really fucking irritated when someone says that to them?

 

I would always hear church members bitching about what they don't like about church. They would change churches all the time to find something better.

I think what's going on is that Theism is essentially wish thinking. You wish for a perfect sugar-daddy in the sky to help you with whatever you ask, then believe this is true so your world would be nearly perfect. Then you go to church and meet real people(angry, greedy, jealousy, moody) instead of a perfect God. So you find the reality of people to be a bitch compared to what you wish for.

So this statement is really just bitching that reality as not a good as their fantasies.

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


greek goddess
Rational VIP!Science Freak
greek goddess's picture
Posts: 361
Joined: 2008-01-26
User is offlineOffline
Shaitian wrote:i never had

Shaitian wrote:

i never had the hawian flip flop youth pastor. 

Really? noooo... you totally missed out man!

Haha, actually, your youth group sounds really cool. Mine was just "show up on Sunday morning so we can attempt to convince you not to look at porn or say 'fuck,' and come back Sunday nights so we can hold hands and sing Kumbayah." One time we watched "The Three Amigos" at the church basement lock-in for all us kids that were going to be confirmed the next weekend. Pretty much as secular as it got.


greek goddess
Rational VIP!Science Freak
greek goddess's picture
Posts: 361
Joined: 2008-01-26
User is offlineOffline
jmm...

Ok first, I just want to say that I completely understand your position, because that is where I was until last June/July. I was 6 years old the first time I doubted god, and I struggled until I was 19 to reconcile my faith with truths I saw to be evident until I finally gave myself over to the 'dark side.' I understand how confusing it is to be seeking god while not engaged wholeheartedly in religion, and so I apologize if anything I say seems offensive or comes off as an attack.

jmm wrote:

I think there's a huge bit of middle ground here.  Not everyone who says "I hate religion but love God" is the way you described them.  Sure, you run into quite a few of those types, but I just don't think you can make that kind of generalization.

I'm not sure whether you were addressing my viewpoint specifically, or some of the other points that have been put forth, but I'm going to respond regardless.

I think the OP was meant in regard to fundies that are clearly immersed in religion, yet claim not to be in order to win over converts. The points made in the OP target this 'demograph' specifically. In this case, there is little gray area - if they hate religion so much, why are they at some church activity everyday? In this case, they are basically lying.

Now I'm sure there are others who can make the same statement, but mean something totally different. They might mean that they think it's pointless to engage in communion, or "cleanse the church," or kiss icons, or sing antique hymns because it's all just a distraction from the main event. But they do believe in God/Jesus/Christian doctrine (or whatever their religion of choice is). In this case, they are speaking out against the ritualistic aspect of religion, but not against the doctrine itself.

I think this might be where you're coming from, but correct me if I'm wrong. Even though you don't go to church or partake in the ritualistic aspect of Christianity, you are still a Christian by belief, as you have self-identified yourself as such.

There are two parts to religion - the ritual and the doctrine. But the doctrine is the foundation, because the ritual aspect hinges on the doctrine. You usually can't have the former without the latter (unless you're Greek orthodox, in which case the doctrine has been long obscured, and the entire point of going to church is to light candles and exchange baklava recipes).

But what you can have is the doctrine, without ritual. Emily Dickinson wrote a poem in which she said that instead of going to church Sunday mornings, she strolled through her garden. The flowers stirred up more awe and reverence for God than any hymn or sermon could. I guess what I'm getting at is that you can still be Christian without going to church - as long as you subscribe to the basic concepts of a creator God, a savior Jesus Christ, and a trinitarian viewpoint. You know the drill.

I think maybe a more accurate statement would be to say that you "love God, but hate the organized church" or "love God, but hate the rituals steeped in symbolism" or something a little more specific.

jmm wrote:

In fact, I think that phrase describes my own view to a certain extent.  I was hurt very badly by members of my church, yet I still pursue God.  I don't go to church, I don't wear Hawaiian or Polo shirts (I usually just wear plain t-shirts), I don't have an Ichthus emblem on my bumper, I don't even own an iPod (although I do listen to Jars of Clay for nostalgic reasons every few years), I don't call my male friends "bro", and I certainly don't smack them on the ass.  I'm just a regular person who's over the whole church thing but still pursues God. 

As with most things, there is a huge middle ground that you're neglecting.  Not all Christians are these insufferable caricatures that you've rendered. 

I'm sorry, we didn't mean to peg all Christians with these stereotypes. It was just in reference to youth pastors, and even then, there are many like shaitian who never had a hawaiian flip flop pastor. lol. I still show up at church occasionally, thanks to my Lutheran dad, and for the most part, I do think that the people I have gone to school and church with are very nice people. I may not agree with them in matters of ideology, politics, etc, but I do think they are usually well-intentioned. You yourself also seem like a nice guy, and I wasn't trying to imply anything about you by my comments.

Anyways, I wish you luck in your theological journey, and if there's something I gathered from your comments that wasn't true, please correct me.


latincanuck
atheist
latincanuck's picture
Posts: 2036
Joined: 2007-06-01
User is offlineOffline
What world am I living in???

I have never encountered one of these types of youth pastors......then again living in Canada it does get cold, now I have met dickwads that think they can grab my Gibson and play it without my permission (yeah I tend to get a weee bit pissy about this one). But pastors acting like young people (ok if they acted like my friends, awesome would have gotten them a beating), of course in high school, our group was a special group (ok not short bus special), everyone hated us, and we hated everyone, even the geeks hated us, we were the outcasts of the outcasts. However with that said, not even in all of my travels (Pretty much all the Americas, Northern Europe, Japan, China, Egypt and South Africa) I have never encountered such a creature....unless it was on the movie screen, which made me believe it was a hyped up stereotype (much like the valley girls, much to my dismay, they actually exist, and are that stupid). Hmm maybe I will get lucky during my stay in states in the next few months.


I AM GOD AS YOU
Superfan
Posts: 4793
Joined: 2007-09-29
User is offlineOffline
Whatever ..... hey

  Ummm  .....  hey foxy greek goddess

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BUS2kQsc58

  Over the top , how high is that ? All Christians are liars ..... All atheists are "saved" .... and Jesus said so ..... Buddha too.   Sure I exadurate ..... but why ?!

 .... well,  one answer is I AM doing fantasy with a greek goddess  ..... with no doubt ....   

It's a Wonderful World  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSEjbfoxcAc

 ..... okay,  Christians ain't all bad,  but their dogs are .....      


Jacob Cordingley
SuperfanBronze Member
Jacob Cordingley's picture
Posts: 1484
Joined: 2007-03-18
User is offlineOffline
Being from the UK, and

Being from the UK, and having lived here all my life, mostly in England (but also Scotland) I'm not really familiar with this kind of hip Christianity. I know plenty of young people who describe themselves as Christians (although most of them aren't really caught up in going to church or chastity or any of that stuff). Evangelism is extremely rare here, indeed its kind of a dirty word. Young Christians are often seen as 'sensible young men/ women' although obviously with Christianity its rarely sensible.

I did however have the pleasure of meeting a young man from the Christian Union on campus a couple of months ago. I was getting some food with a friend of mine in one of the campus restaurants and a couple of guys came in one of whom my friend knew from his course. So they sat with us, and it was fairly friendly. Anyway, the other guy (the one my friend didn't know) started talking about his missionary work. If I had to choose one thing about Christianity I hate its missionaries going out and trying to convert uneducated, poor folk in the third world. So I said:

"So you actually go out there and convert people do you?"

"Well no, we just give them the option, tell them there was this guy called Jesus and all the things he did."

"And you actually believe Jesus existed?"

"Well there's plenty of evidence."

"Where?"

"In the bible"

It then progressed into a discussion about biblical errancy with the same old arguments, 'but there were plenty of witnesses' and 'the bible is a historical document'. The same arguments my agnostic friend who was raised evangelist used to throw at me when we were 17.

I honestly don't understand young Christians, especially those who actually do have decent brains. I mean old people had less choice, back in the patriarchal days, it was just the done thing back then (although my grandad is an atheist, having said that my grandpa (on the other side is a vicar despite his father being an atheist)). I mean what is it that turns intellectually able young people, living in a time of free thought and liberalism to these archaic, bronze age beliefs?


Loc
Superfan
Loc's picture
Posts: 1130
Joined: 2007-11-06
User is offlineOffline
Jacob Cordingley wrote:I

Jacob Cordingley wrote:

I mean what is it that turns intellectually able young people, living in a time of free thought and liberalism to these archaic, bronze age beliefs?

Indoctrination I'm guessing. Failing that, I've known of some young people who have turned to religion because of their crappy home lives etc.

On the hip thing note, that's really the christian scene here. There's a large church quite near me, the largest I've ever seen. There's a big base of 18-28 year olds,many of whom seem to be clones.The muscular, gelled hair, over friendly type. Every second word is bro or dude I see it as an adaption. Traditional christianity isn't going to attract any young people, so they have their christian rock bands, teen mags, and friendly surfer boy image.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


Jacob Cordingley
SuperfanBronze Member
Jacob Cordingley's picture
Posts: 1484
Joined: 2007-03-18
User is offlineOffline
I guess turning to religion

I guess turning to religion because of crappy home lives is better than turning to gun and knife crime. That's the sort of thing that seems to happen here in Manchester. Mind you, you Americans have worse levels of gun crime than we do.


Loc
Superfan
Loc's picture
Posts: 1130
Joined: 2007-11-06
User is offlineOffline
Jacob Cordingley wrote:Mind

Jacob Cordingley wrote:

Mind you, you Americans have worse levels of gun crime than we do.

If you're talking to me,I'm South African,not American. Though we have the second highest murder rate in the world, so can't judge anyone.

It is better to turn to religon than do that, but those people are usually the 'strongest in their faith.' By finding mindless escapism in it, they really think god saved them. It would be pretty hard to have an intelligent argument with them.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
Greek Goddess, that is a

Greek Goddess,

 

that is a very through analysis!  are you a religion major?  i was (in a very liberal, higher criticism faculty, of course).

 

the funny thing was, the religion major at my school had the fewest "born agains" in it.  after the introductory religion course they had to take as freshmen, most of them were too busy recovering from aneurysms.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
jmm wrote:I think there's a

jmm wrote:

I think there's a huge bit of middle ground here.  Not everyone who says "I hate religion but love God" is the way you described them.  Sure, you run into quite a few of those types, but I just don't think you can make that kind of generalization. 

In fact, I think that phrase describes my own view to a certain extent.  I was hurt very badly by members of my church, yet I still pursue God.  I don't go to church, I don't wear Hawaiian or Polo shirts (I usually just wear plain t-shirts), I don't have an Ichthus emblem on my bumper, I don't even own an iPod (although I do listen to Jars of Clay for nostalgic reasons every few years), I don't call my male friends "bro", and I certainly don't smack them on the ass.  I'm just a regular person who's over the whole church thing but still pursues God. 

As with most things, there is a huge middle ground that you're neglecting.  Not all Christians are these insufferable caricatures that you've rendered. 

 

yes, there is a lot of middle ground.  but the people in the middle ground don't usually come and fuckin' bother me with their bullshit.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
EXC wrote:iwbiek

EXC wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

anyone else here get really fucking irritated when someone says that to them?

 

I would always hear church members bitching about what they don't like about church. They would change churches all the time to find something better.

I think what's going on is that Theism is essentially wish thinking. You wish for a perfect sugar-daddy in the sky to help you with whatever you ask, then believe this is true so your world would be nearly perfect. Then you go to church and meet real people(angry, greedy, jealousy, moody) instead of a perfect God. So you find the reality of people to be a bitch compared to what you wish for.

So this statement is really just bitching that reality as not a good as their fantasies.

 

 

you know, despite my disgust with christianity, i absolutely love gospel music (not, repeat, NOT what is generally known as "contemporary christian" music or "praise and worship"--that shit fuckin' sucks ass).  as a musician, i can say there is just nothing much better than the abyssinian baptist choir or the staples singers or shirley caesar.  ray charles and bob dylan, among many others, would agree with me.

 

anyhow, my point is, there is a line in an old gospel song done by the GREAT sister rosetta tharpe that goes, "when people jump from church to church, you know their conversion don't amount to much."

 

ANYONE WHO HAS NEVER BEEN EXPOSED TO ROSETTA THARPE, PLEASE do yourself a favor and watch this (make sure you stay for the guitar solo):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeaBNAXfHfQ

 

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
latincanuck wrote:I have

latincanuck wrote:

I have never encountered one of these types of youth pastors......then again living in Canada it does get cold, now I have met dickwads that think they can grab my Gibson and play it without my permission (yeah I tend to get a weee bit pissy about this one). But pastors acting like young people (ok if they acted like my friends, awesome would have gotten them a beating), of course in high school, our group was a special group (ok not short bus special), everyone hated us, and we hated everyone, even the geeks hated us, we were the outcasts of the outcasts. However with that said, not even in all of my travels (Pretty much all the Americas, Northern Europe, Japan, China, Egypt and South Africa) I have never encountered such a creature....unless it was on the movie screen, which made me believe it was a hyped up stereotype (much like the valley girls, much to my dismay, they actually exist, and are that stupid). Hmm maybe I will get lucky during my stay in states in the next few months.

 

just go to your nearest college campus and attend a campus crusade for christ or baptist student union meeting.  you'll see enough of them to last you the rest of your natural life, i promise.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
Jacob Cordingley wrote:Being

Jacob Cordingley wrote:

Being from the UK, and having lived here all my life, mostly in England (but also Scotland) I'm not really familiar with this kind of hip Christianity. I know plenty of young people who describe themselves as Christians (although most of them aren't really caught up in going to church or chastity or any of that stuff). Evangelism is extremely rare here, indeed its kind of a dirty word. Young Christians are often seen as 'sensible young men/ women' although obviously with Christianity its rarely sensible.

I did however have the pleasure of meeting a young man from the Christian Union on campus a couple of months ago. I was getting some food with a friend of mine in one of the campus restaurants and a couple of guys came in one of whom my friend knew from his course. So they sat with us, and it was fairly friendly. Anyway, the other guy (the one my friend didn't know) started talking about his missionary work. If I had to choose one thing about Christianity I hate its missionaries going out and trying to convert uneducated, poor folk in the third world. So I said:

"So you actually go out there and convert people do you?"

"Well no, we just give them the option, tell them there was this guy called Jesus and all the things he did."

"And you actually believe Jesus existed?"

"Well there's plenty of evidence."

"Where?"

"In the bible"

It then progressed into a discussion about biblical errancy with the same old arguments, 'but there were plenty of witnesses' and 'the bible is a historical document'. The same arguments my agnostic friend who was raised evangelist used to throw at me when we were 17.

I honestly don't understand young Christians, especially those who actually do have decent brains. I mean old people had less choice, back in the patriarchal days, it was just the done thing back then (although my grandad is an atheist, having said that my grandpa (on the other side is a vicar despite his father being an atheist)). I mean what is it that turns intellectually able young people, living in a time of free thought and liberalism to these archaic, bronze age beliefs?

 

you know, that's funny.  i totally agree with you about britain's low-key christianity.  i studied in london for a semester and travelled throughout england and wales on the weekends and my experience was the same.  BUT it seems like whenever my hardcore christian youth culture friends started to play their shitty, SHITTY christian music, it was always some dude with an english accent singing.  can you shed some light on this?

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
Jacob Cordingley wrote:I

Jacob Cordingley wrote:

I guess turning to religion because of crappy home lives is better than turning to gun and knife crime. That's the sort of thing that seems to happen here in Manchester. Mind you, you Americans have worse levels of gun crime than we do.

 

we also have more born-agains than you do.  hmmm...

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


Jacob Cordingley
SuperfanBronze Member
Jacob Cordingley's picture
Posts: 1484
Joined: 2007-03-18
User is offlineOffline
iwbiek wrote:Jacob

iwbiek wrote:

Jacob Cordingley wrote:

Being from the UK, and having lived here all my life, mostly in England (but also Scotland) I'm not really familiar with this kind of hip Christianity. I know plenty of young people who describe themselves as Christians (although most of them aren't really caught up in going to church or chastity or any of that stuff). Evangelism is extremely rare here, indeed its kind of a dirty word. Young Christians are often seen as 'sensible young men/ women' although obviously with Christianity its rarely sensible.

I did however have the pleasure of meeting a young man from the Christian Union on campus a couple of months ago. I was getting some food with a friend of mine in one of the campus restaurants and a couple of guys came in one of whom my friend knew from his course. So they sat with us, and it was fairly friendly. Anyway, the other guy (the one my friend didn't know) started talking about his missionary work. If I had to choose one thing about Christianity I hate its missionaries going out and trying to convert uneducated, poor folk in the third world. So I said:

"So you actually go out there and convert people do you?"

"Well no, we just give them the option, tell them there was this guy called Jesus and all the things he did."

"And you actually believe Jesus existed?"

"Well there's plenty of evidence."

"Where?"

"In the bible"

It then progressed into a discussion about biblical errancy with the same old arguments, 'but there were plenty of witnesses' and 'the bible is a historical document'. The same arguments my agnostic friend who was raised evangelist used to throw at me when we were 17.

I honestly don't understand young Christians, especially those who actually do have decent brains. I mean old people had less choice, back in the patriarchal days, it was just the done thing back then (although my grandad is an atheist, having said that my grandpa (on the other side is a vicar despite his father being an atheist)). I mean what is it that turns intellectually able young people, living in a time of free thought and liberalism to these archaic, bronze age beliefs?

 

you know, that's funny.  i totally agree with you about britain's low-key christianity.  i studied in london for a semester and travelled throughout england and wales on the weekends and my experience was the same.  BUT it seems like whenever my hardcore christian youth culture friends started to play their shitty, SHITTY christian music, it was always some dude with an english accent singing.  can you shed some light on this?

No. I can't shed any light on this. We do have some fundies though. We just write them off as loonatics.


I AM GOD AS YOU
Superfan
Posts: 4793
Joined: 2007-09-29
User is offlineOffline
Thanks for that iwbiek ,

  Thanks for that iwbiek , I put that in my files,

ANYONE WHO HAS NEVER BEEN EXPOSED TO ROSETTA THARPE, PLEASE do yourself a favor and watch this (make sure you stay for the guitar solo):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeaBNAXfHfQ

  She rocks, playing an SG guitar,  and a solo Chuck Berry would be proud of ! KInda makes me think of old Hank Williams Sr.  Love that nitty gritty  .....    


Iruka Naminori
atheist
Iruka Naminori's picture
Posts: 1955
Joined: 2006-11-21
User is offlineOffline
I hate Christmas, but I love

I hate Christmas, but I love Santa.


Iruka Naminori
atheist
Iruka Naminori's picture
Posts: 1955
Joined: 2006-11-21
User is offlineOffline
Jacob Cordingley wrote:No. I

Jacob Cordingley wrote:

No. I can't shed any light on this. We do have some fundies though. We just write them off as loonatics.

I met one on a gaming site and got to know him a little.  He's a JW.  After he explained that the Israelites had to kill all the people already in Canaan because they were evil--man, woman and child--I gave up on him.  He said archaeologists had proved it.

There are times I want to go back to that site simply to verbally spank the shit out of that guy.

Books on atheism, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


geirj
geirj's picture
Posts: 719
Joined: 2007-06-19
User is offlineOffline
greek goddess wrote:First of

greek goddess wrote:

First of all, I had to laugh at your description of youth pastors - at least from my experiences, it is truly dead-on! They also have a penchant for those hawaiian-print shirts that went out of style like 8 years ago, birkenstock sandals, and the word "awesome" - as in "Jesus made such an awesome, awesome sacrifice for us" or "Let us praise the awesomeness that is God" or "God's love for us is so incomprehensible.. it's just awesome."

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

Why Believe?


jmm
Theist
jmm's picture
Posts: 837
Joined: 2007-03-03
User is offlineOffline
Watcher wrote:jmm wrote:Yes,

Watcher wrote:

jmm wrote:

Yes, I'm a Christian. 

Which Denomination?  Or will you say non-denominational?  Pretty much the same thing as "I'm about 95% exactly of the same belief as baptists as far as any christian belief".

I was raised baptist.

I'm not affiliated with a denomination.  I lean towards orthodox, contemplative, and "primitive flesh-cutting" religious traditions, as one of my old philosophy professors described me. 

I haven't attended church since early 2001, but I'm still a Christian who is very fucking sick of the modern church yet deeply interested in religious practice. 

I don't know.  I guess I just have this obsession with the idea of God, and it makes sense to me to explore it.  I don't think it makes me crazy or a bad person or anything. 

I'm proficient in Koine (as well as Attic) Greek, so I'm also very interested in reading the New Testament in the original language. 

Whatever that makes me, I guess that's what I am. 


I AM GOD AS YOU
Superfan
Posts: 4793
Joined: 2007-09-29
User is offlineOffline
I AM glad jmm, that you

 I AM glad jmm, that you are thinking on my friend atheist Jesus. He say, "Ye are gods, we are one with the cosmos (father)" ..... not a bit of dogma that atheist Jesus. So where did the bull shit dogma come from ? Well, it's all over at the churches , and in  the 2 (un-holy) bi-bull books .....    

"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being". -Thomas Jefferson
 

    Atheists for Jesus   http://www.atheists-for-jesus.com/index.php      

 


Eloise
Theist
Eloise's picture
Posts: 1804
Joined: 2007-05-26
User is offlineOffline
Jacob Cordingley

Jacob Cordingley wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

you know, that's funny.  i totally agree with you about britain's low-key christianity.  i studied in london for a semester and travelled throughout england and wales on the weekends and my experience was the same.  BUT it seems like whenever my hardcore christian youth culture friends started to play their shitty, SHITTY christian music, it was always some dude with an english accent singing.  can you shed some light on this?

No. I can't shed any light on this. We do have some fundies though. We just write them off as loonatics.

are you sure it's an english accent? we have the hip stereotype Christian thing over here in Australia making pitiful music by the sh**load and Aussie, NZ and POM accents often sound the same to an American ear.

http://www.acan.org.au/

Theist badge qualifier : Gnostic/Philosophical Panentheist

www.mathematicianspictures.com


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
WTF is POM?

WTF is POM?


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
Eloise wrote:Jacob

Eloise wrote:

Jacob Cordingley wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

you know, that's funny.  i totally agree with you about britain's low-key christianity.  i studied in london for a semester and travelled throughout england and wales on the weekends and my experience was the same.  BUT it seems like whenever my hardcore christian youth culture friends started to play their shitty, SHITTY christian music, it was always some dude with an english accent singing.  can you shed some light on this?

No. I can't shed any light on this. We do have some fundies though. We just write them off as loonatics.

are you sure it's an english accent? we have the hip stereotype Christian thing over here in Australia making pitiful music by the sh**load and Aussie, NZ and POM accents often sound the same to an American ear.

http://www.acan.org.au/

 

well, i've been in the UK twice, once for a semester's study, and i've always considered myself pretty good at separating english from aussie or new zealander.  i definitely would have never thought ray comfort was english.  now, sometimes i DO have problems distinguishing the down under accent from white south african.

 

btw, out of curiosity, what do you mean by "philosophical pantheist"?  are you into spinoza?

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


greek goddess
Rational VIP!Science Freak
greek goddess's picture
Posts: 361
Joined: 2008-01-26
User is offlineOffline
It's been a few days since I

It's been a few days since I checked in on this thread.

But anyways, iwbiek, I'm actually not a religion major. I'm currently pursuing a degree in biology, with a potential minor in anthropology.

But I have had a lot of exposure to religion. From preschool through high school I attended parochial/private schools with the exception of 3 years spent in public school - I went through a lot of Bible classes. I was baptized and confirmed, spent many a Sunday in church, and have been involved in various youth group activities and church-based volunteer projects. And even after coming to college, I felt compelled to pursue the spirituality that had eluded me most of my life, so I participated in a couple Bible studies before finally deciding it wasn't for me.

Since the age of 6, I have had doubts about the dogma I was surrounded by. My mother was/is a closet atheist, and she encouraged me to think critically about religion like I would for any other area of life. I always went with the flow, for the most part, but it was only during the year surrounding my confirmation that I actually bought into any of it. Thus, I've had a lot of firsthand access to Christianity by posing as an "insider."


Eloise
Theist
Eloise's picture
Posts: 1804
Joined: 2007-05-26
User is offlineOffline
MattShizzle wrote:WTF is

MattShizzle wrote:

WTF is POM?

It means British, it's an old slang acronym for Prisoner of Her/His Majesty. Aussies shorten everything, mostly cause we are a totally anti-formal culture it's not generally intended to offend, though sometimes it does. In retrospect I hope Jacob wasn't offended, I avoid using the usual term for American because I'm almost sure none of you will like it, even though I'd never really intend it in a derogatory fashion. 

 

 

 

Theist badge qualifier : Gnostic/Philosophical Panentheist

www.mathematicianspictures.com


Eloise
Theist
Eloise's picture
Posts: 1804
Joined: 2007-05-26
User is offlineOffline
iwbiek wrote:Eloise

iwbiek wrote:

Eloise wrote:

Jacob Cordingley wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

you know, that's funny.  i totally agree with you about britain's low-key christianity.  i studied in london for a semester and travelled throughout england and wales on the weekends and my experience was the same.  BUT it seems like whenever my hardcore christian youth culture friends started to play their shitty, SHITTY christian music, it was always some dude with an english accent singing.  can you shed some light on this?

No. I can't shed any light on this. We do have some fundies though. We just write them off as loonatics.

are you sure it's an english accent? we have the hip stereotype Christian thing over here in Australia making pitiful music by the sh**load and Aussie, NZ and POM accents often sound the same to an American ear.

http://www.acan.org.au/

 

well, i've been in the UK twice, once for a semester's study, and i've always considered myself pretty good at separating english from aussie or new zealander.  i definitely would have never thought ray comfort was english.  now, sometimes i DO have problems distinguishing the down under accent from white south african.

Yeah I was going to add Boks to the list, even though I never understood why we get confused, A South African accent is really noticeable to my ear.

 

Quote:

btw, out of curiosity, what do you mean by "philosophical pantheist"?  are you into spinoza?

It's Panentheism, actually, so the influence is Heraclitus, Cordevero, Shaivism,Native American thought etc. I'm into Process philosophy basically

Theist badge qualifier : Gnostic/Philosophical Panentheist

www.mathematicianspictures.com