Divine Existence Proven by Reason Alone

dmar198
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Divine Existence Proven by Reason Alone

Of Necessity and Deity
 

A god is a being which exists without owing its existence to another being (that is, a self-existent being). Any god must be able to serve as the source of existence (e.g. its own) (by definition of self-existent).

 

QUESTION - Whether there is a god.

 

PRIMARY ASSUMPTION – The Law of Contradiction holds true universally; a thing cannot both “be” and “not be”, in the same manner and at the same time.

 

PRIMARY PRAXIS – If the conclusion to a line of thought violates the Law of Contradiction, it will be discarded (because to violate that Law is to reject its universal command, which we have assumed).

 

1.  For a universe to exist, a god must exist. Because...

  • Whether a universe self-exists or exists without self-existing, it follows that a god exists. Because...

-If it self-exists, a god exists, as it itself is a god (by definition of god).

 

-If it does not self-exist, but still exists, a god exists. Because...

--If it exists by another (or, others), there must be an ultimate and self-existent “other”. Because...

---There is a result (namely, a universe that exists without self-existing).

---Any result requires an ultimate cause (by definition of result) (and an ultimate cause must be self-existent by definition of ultimate).
 

--It does exist by another (or, others) (by definition of exist without self-existing).

---To exist without self-existing is to exist by another (or, others) (by definition of self)
 

--Therefore, an ultimate “other” exists which self-exists.

---This is a god (by definition of god). 

  • An existent universe must either self-exist or not – there are no other alternatives. 
  • Therefore, there is no option that does not require self-existence (and, thus, deity).


 2.  A universe exists – there are no other alternatives. Because...

  • For something to be an alternative, it must exist.

-Otherwise it would “be” (namely, an alternative) without “being” in the first place, which is a contradiction – following praxis, we will disregard such ideas.

  • Nonexistence does not exist (by definition of nonexistence).

  • Therefore, something exists – and the existence of something constitutes a universe.

3.  Therefore, a god exists.
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HisWillness
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Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:
Congratulations.  You've successfully proven that IF you define God as something that definitely exists, then God definitely exists.  God is the universe.  You are a pantheist.

I don't know if the argument goes that far. It's even more limited. In another post, the statement was that if a god were to exist, it would be its own universe. That's not necessarily our universe, and it's entirely hypothetical. I've seen the argument before, but I can't remember where.

It's difficult to take it seriously though, as it may or may not have to do with our universe ... which describes its relevance.

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HisWillness
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dmar198 wrote:You might

dmar198 wrote:

You might say,

1). If infinite regress exists, God cannot exist...

Yes, that's what he might say.

Hamby: I didn't even think that was a trap until it was sprung, did you?

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HisWillness
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dmar198 wrote:A god is a

dmar198 wrote:

A god is a being which exists without owing its existence to another being (that is, a self-existent being). Any god must be able to serve as the source of existence (e.g. its own) (by definition of self-existent). 

QUESTION - Whether there is a god.

Please note that your question is whether or not there exists a being which exists without owing its existence to another being. All you have to do is produce such a being.

In fact, it's not even a "being", since you've dispensed with consciousness. It's just "something". So you're attempting to prove that there exists something can "self-exist". My point is that pantheism isn't being discussed here, and your definition is misleading.

dmar198 wrote:
An existent universe must either self-exist or not – there are no other alternatives.

If, in fact, self-existence is possible, which you have not demonstrated.

"Where did the universe come from?" is a legitimate question, and a fascinating mystery. Equating the universe with an entity arbitrarily in order to prove that the entity exists isn't helpful in answering the question.

 

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


Louis_Cypher
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Definition lacking

Your definition of 'being' omits a critical attribute, self awareness. If it isn't self aware, then an object is not a being.

For your argument to be valid, you must also show that the universe is self aware, otherwise it could be an un-caused OBJECT, not a being.

LC >;-}>

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dmar198 wrote:Fish

dmar198 wrote:

Fish wrote:

dmar198 wrote:

The point is that there does exist a being, distinct from the cosmos, which sustains the existence of the cosmos. At least to me, that seems equivalent to theism, a conclusion I would be uncomfortable with if I were an atheist.

This claim doesn't follow from your original argument.  How are you reaching the conclusion that the cosmos isn't self-existent, using reason alone?

You're right, that claim does not follow from my original argument. That's why I didn't include it in my original argument. But we happen to have experience with a universe, and we happen to know from experience (not from reason) that our universe does not self-exist. And my claim follows from that plus my original argument.

 

I'm still curious on what grounds you're basing that the universe doesn't self-exist. Besides, I thought God was the universe.... I'm confused with all this equivocation.