What ever happened to gods miracles
Offline One thing I do not understand, and admit it was a huge part in my departure from christianity is where are all the signs and wonders that god is said to be capable of?
For me I actively fight against religion because the entire structure is based on this god that in the past is claimed to have been extremely active in messing around in humanities affairs. Basically getting his point across to us dullards, as in old testament stuff. Even active in more modern times.. with new testament miracles. But then ever since man has developed the ability to group information together.. Poof no sign of god…
Where are the blind healed?.... Where are the lame that walk?…. where are the hungry fed with just a couple fish….
Why is the world is the UN food agency worried about shortages. There should be at least a couple believers that could pass a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish around and feed them surely?
Show me one person that was completely blind, crippled or on a death bed with cancer that was healed. One truly verifiable miracle. Why would god feel the necessity’s to send his son down to die and dispatch his disciples into the world to and then just disapear?
In the bible in Mark V16:15-18 the bible states;
“He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues, they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
Seems mighty fishy that as soon as we would all be able to witness this awesome power of our said Lord he retracts his influence and expects everything to be based on faith….
I may not be an overly smart person, but he states the credentials of his followers, where are the signs that "will accompany those who believe?
I spent a number of years devotely following a chritsian faith… I never seen a miracle that did not have an obvious explanation. I never did see the blind healed. Hell never even met anyone that has or at least could prove they have.
So where is your god, what is he doing taking a holiday on Bazor?
Really if people don’t use there common sense and see religion for the fruit it doesn't bear, then i think they really do deserve to be slaves.
Renshia
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I just can’t believe that people waste all this time being one thing for something else, they waste all this time and energy on developing some mythological construct as an excuse to live as a person should. What a pathetic waste of energy.
I'm a bit curious but why do you think you needed to see something which you'd call "miraculous" that is beyond what you see everyday?
Hmmm...guess it would depend on what you call "proof." Of course, there is no point I can make under a forum post that would convenience you otherwise anyway so I won't go there.
Does everyone have to yell up and down "Look at what the miracle I did today!" in order for you to know it was done? What I'm saying here is people help others daily but are not needing to have credit given to them for their actions. If I were to go to a place that has needy and managed to cook up a meal for hundreds, all alone, could that not be a "miracle" for those who need? Should I then go to the news and ask them to report it as such?
Millions saw on a Tuesday morning airplanes slam into some buildings in New York and yet some who "saw it" have concluded that it was a missile or smaller plane that caused some or all of the damage. What you see vs. what I see are perceptions and when you see someone saved by an EMT, you call daily life, I call a miracle that we were given the ability to learn how to do such a thing and a miracle that it could be done at that moment for that person to live.
There is a joke that reminds me of your post and I'm sure you've heard it before but I'll put it here anyway for you to know what is on my mind after I read your words:
There is this lady in a town in the central part of the states. She lived near the Mississippi River during the time when there was a big flood. Anyway as the flood waters began to rise, she asked God to perform a miracle and rescue her from the floods. A police officer drove by as she was praying on her front porch telling her that if she didn't have a way out, he could take her to safety. She refused saying, "God will save me." As the waters rose, she was now forced onto the roof of her house. As she continued to pray, a man in a boat came by asking her to come with him. She repeated, "God will save me!" Finally, as the waters became fierce, a helicopter was flying by and attempted to save her. She again refused their help by repeating "God will save me" over and over again. She "wakes up" in heaven, realizing that she drowned in the flood. As she came before God, she asked him, "Lord, why did you not save me?" God replied, "I sent a cop, a boat, and a helicopter, what more did you want?"
I hope the point of the joke in relation to your post isn't lost.
My eyes have seen all this, my ears have heard and understood it. What you know, I also know; I am not inferior to you. But I desire to speak to the Almighty and to argue my case with God. You, however, smear me with lies...(Job 13)
Are you actually trying to make equivilant the miracles in the Bible and just "everyday miracles"? Are you suggesting that when Jesus mentioned you would see miracles, that it wasn't on the order of one fish feeding a multitude, but a multitude of fish feeding a good number?
Are you serious?
Of all the things that were going on during Jesus' life, he actually distinguished between miracles and ordinary events. Now you are just claiming everything a miracle (or whatever you want).
This is why I can't stand Xians. They're generally disingenuous idiots ready with some whitebread story or joke that is supposed to seal the deal.
The fact that this joker thinks showing up at a soup kitchen is the same kind of miracle that Jesus (supposedly) performed is a mockery. Of course, he doesn't care. He just wants to support that stupid religion in the most asinine way he can - as it always has been done.
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.
--- Hyman Rickover (not E. Roosevelt - she quoted Hyman)
Hey I know
Nobody truly believes?
"Tell you once you had better listen because tell you twice and I have spent one more breath closer to death. ."
Your comments are the same as every smilley wide eyed airhead ever uses, they do not relate to reality. They relate to a time in human experience, generations ago when few people were literate fewer yet understood the basic workings of the world around them. "The sun rises, blame god!" "Earthquakes, floods famine happen, blame god!" Today the real reasons are easily explained by any Third grader without resorting to gods. Would that you were as smart as a third grader. The mirecle of feeding the hungry, (done it myself)is not a mystical revelation of the spirit it is the sore muscles. Has for the joke (very funny) shows how blind religion is hazzardous to your health, and the three potential 'saviors' were people doing their JOBS, not an act of god.
jeffrick
Even though you don't understand my meaning on my post, I was civil, respectful even, and you still chose to post insulting me? Why?
Second, I could bearly understand your post with the misspellings and grammar mistakes.
Third, from what I did understand, you assume too much.
My eyes have seen all this, my ears have heard and understood it. What you know, I also know; I am not inferior to you. But I desire to speak to the Almighty and to argue my case with God. You, however, smear me with lies...(Job 13)
You see one thing. I see another. Because I see that everything can be attributed to God, the "miracle" can be small to large. I suppose you could say that from my perspective, I appreciate it differently.
You assume too much as well. You AUTOMATICALLY assume I mean everything is a miracle. More so, you decide to insult me...why?
How am I supposed to respond to that? Lies, assumptions, and insults. Your irrationality and hatred makes a reasonable discussion impossible...
My eyes have seen all this, my ears have heard and understood it. What you know, I also know; I am not inferior to you. But I desire to speak to the Almighty and to argue my case with God. You, however, smear me with lies...(Job 13)
jeffrick
As you can see I don't have the hang of (skills at) this key board stuff yet. I mixed my quotes in with razorphreaks quotes. I hope it doesn't cause too much confusion, still learning as I am.
jeffrick
I'm tolerant of a lot of things Jeffrick, but this website has a spell checker built into it so all you have to do is run it...
An insult is an insult and I never gave you a reason to direct one at me. I don't care who or what has crossed your path before...
Your assumption was that I didn't want to explain any "wonder" as you call it as anything but from God. You and the other hater just don't get it...but because I am a good natured person, I'll try to explain it to you, even though you don't deserve an explanation especially when you didn't ask for it.
As per what my faith is about, I believe that knowledge, wisdom, are gifts from God. Things like the food on our plates, the fact that an EMT knows how to save a life, or that a woman can create a cog are all explainable sure, but how did someone come to understand how to do these things? How did anyone get the ability to understand? To learn? The sheer fact that a person can is the miracle. The fact that humans are even here is a miracle. THOSE are miracles. The gifts that come our way that make explanations possible is a miracle.
But I have the feeling that you won't accept my explanation and will continue to assume you know what I mean...further degenerating the point of this thread just like every other thread on this site as if it is still an "us vs. them" issue...oops I guess I just made an assumption that I just wasted my time...
The difference between you and me on that assumption I assumed nothing on a label. I don't care what you want to call yourself; I call myself by my name and by the fact that I am a human being.
My eyes have seen all this, my ears have heard and understood it. What you know, I also know; I am not inferior to you. But I desire to speak to the Almighty and to argue my case with God. You, however, smear me with lies...(Job 13)
He assumes? More likely, he reads.
Why are people mocking and insulting you? Probably because you're acting stupid and using fallacious arguments. It doesn't take much effort to inform yourself as to what does and does not constitute a valid argument. If someone as lazy as me can even be bothered to do at least that, what does that say about you?
Insults, sure. Assumptions? Lies? Hatred? Are you totally fucked-up? The guy hasn't even met you.
And you're supposed to respond with a straight answer. Since you failed, I'll give you a second chance:
There are already two threads here about the death of Madeline Neumann (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html). I'll even point you to the threads, to save you the time and energy of finding them yourself:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/13241
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/13231
So, my question to you:
Why didn't the Holy Spirit miraculously heal Madeline - a feat that decades old medical treatment could've accomplished? For that matter, perhaps you would care to offer a valid explanation to albedo_00 as to why the anonymously named Laura was also not miraculously healed of her anorexia through faith? Jesus was able to lay hands on people and restore them even from death, and claimed his followers would wield the same power. So why the fuck are these two young girls no longer among the living?
No doubt your response will be a classic.
CAUTION:
This human being has more accumulated hours playing GI Joes in the bathtub than he has sleeping, owns more polyhedral dice than he does articles of clothing and has invested more money into his personal computer than most people do on their cars.
Communicate at your own risk.
Religious people are dangerous trouble makers that need love, as in understanding their delusion and hypocrisy and fiction of fear, and spreading god dogma of separation, said even big J .... a Xain icon, ..... that the xains are to fucking stupid to interpret for themselves .....
HEY Xains , my big J was an atheist , get it ???? .... well keep tying you dumb asses ..... BTW, big J don't like you Xain types, so he came as a doctor to cure them, but they fucking Xain types just killed him, so the story reads .....
Xains are fucking devils ..... so put love on ..... to heal ..... And so I YELL as J was rightiously indignant too ..... Fuck you Xains ..... I say this from love and caring ...... in the name of my atheist loving JESUS .....
YEAH JESUS SAVES, Christians kill .....
Amazing how you can reduce a thread to insults and cursing without any intelligent thing to say. Aren't you labeled as a "troll" here for that? And I thought this was the "kill em with kindness" forum....
My eyes have seen all this, my ears have heard and understood it. What you know, I also know; I am not inferior to you. But I desire to speak to the Almighty and to argue my case with God. You, however, smear me with lies...(Job 13)
What fallacious argument? The original post on this thread was about never seeing a miracle. Right? That person asked why not? I simply gave a different perspective on how I see things. It had nothing to do with not explaining it but rather how I have understood them to be.
You assume that every Christian, because he or she doesn't believe as you do, is making an argument right? I did no such thing. So why are you following that odd line?
And you say I don't read it? An insult is hate. Period. Always is.
You didn't read my joke from my first post did you? People who only "pray" for God's healing are ignorant of God's gifts to humanity. God sends his gifts in many ways and those people who refused those gifts, waiting for a miracle, as if testing God's power, were missing the point. I've seen stories like that for years and each time it's the same thing time and time again. When I was in a motorcycle accident and it left me with a shattered left leg, I didn't refuse the EMT's help and I didn't refuse the rod that would be put in my leg to help heal me to get back to walking again. My appreciation of those doctors who helped me includes thanking God for putting the right people in place to help me.
I can't tell you why they didn't seek the help that God ALREADY put on this
Earth. I am not in their shoes. As a Christian myself, I would have told them, if I had had the chance, to seek out the medical help and trust that through the doctors and other medical staff, the care that they needed would find them. But they made their choice. But that is not what this thread is about.
But hey, did what I just wrote matter to you? I'm sure if you read through all this you're probably already thinking something like "but the HS coulda/shoulda healed if it was able to." So I suppose no matter what words I offer up here will not remove the bias you already have against me. Shame too, this thread could have been an interesting discussion.
My eyes have seen all this, my ears have heard and understood it. What you know, I also know; I am not inferior to you. But I desire to speak to the Almighty and to argue my case with God. You, however, smear me with lies...(Job 13)
Okay, it took a moment for me to catch up
First I do think we need to qualify what is a miracle. If you are going to attribute every bit of good fortune as a miracle of god, and every miss fortune as The devils influence, this conversation will go no where.
[ quote=razorphreak
I see that everything can be attributed to God, the "miracle" can be small to large.[ /quote ]
Well lets see, I was once walking down the street. Fairly broke, wishing that I could scrape up twenty bucks.. Low and behold.. as I walked down the street... I happen to stumble upon an envelope... It had 50.00 in it. I was so glad.. I got to a pay phone and called a buddy.... we went grabbed some beer and went and got drunk.
Now did god provide a miracle for me???
Hear is the definition of what a would qualify as " signs and wonders" as a miracle is as laid out by your bible..
We will refer to mark v15:16
In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues, they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
so first off lets ignore the first to items, (mostly because I don't want any one using the movie dameon as evidence)
but lets look at the last couple.
drink deadly poison, Place hands on the sick and they will get better.
okay, I think the fish feeding thing and raising the dead would also qualify.
What doesn't qualify is, finding twenty bucks- a rose in your garden blooming - the weather being the way you would want. or the patriots losing.
now.
[ quote=razorphreak
"Look at what the miracle I did today!" in order for you to know it was done? [ /quote ]
No, but it was god that did say "these signs will accompany those who believe" so if they were happening you would think someone would be talking about it. with all the religious TV shows out there, you would think we would see at least one guy get out of a wheel chair and be able to verify it.
[ quote= if I were to go to a place that has needy and managed to cook up a meal for hundreds, all alone, could that not be a "miracle" for those who need? [ /quote ]
No this is not a miracle. This is a direct result of your actions producing a result. no different than me taking an axe and cutting down a tree. So will you call me cutting down a tree a miracle?
I think you have made a great effort to minimize the power of your GOD down to being impotent, so you do not have to high of expectations of him, this way avoiding the reality of your disappointment in him.
I am sure it is easier to attribute every little piece of fluff in the air as a miracle and be able to stand around in dumb amazement, than to admit that your god is impotent and unable to doing anything.
razorphreak---- I used to tell that joke in a sermon I used to preach... good one eh?
here is one for you..
There is a Chinese story of an old farmer who had an old horse for tilling his fields.
One day the horse escaped into the hills and when all the farmer’s neighbors sympathized with the old man over his bad luck.
The farmer replied, “Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?”
A few nights later, the barn burned down. If the horse had been in the barn, it would have died.
Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?
A week later his horse returned with a herd of wild horses from the hills and this time the neighbors congratulated the farmer on his good luck.
His reply was, “Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?”
Then when the farmer’s son was attempting to tame one of the wild horses, he fell off its back and broke his leg. Everyone thought this was very bad luck.
Not the farmer, whose only reaction was, “Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?”
Some weeks later the army marched into the village and conscripted every able bodied youth they found there. When they saw the farmer’s son with his broken leg they let him stay home.
the farmer, whose only reaction was, “Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?”
you see, it is all perspective, but perspective does not count as evidence.
So razorphreak, thanks for you input, but once again we see lots of excuses but nothing tangible or credible.
Oh and a joke that makes me think, all it does is give a very vivid example of how religion dissolves a persons ability to reason.
Just think if that woman had not been blinded by stupid faith she would have gotten into the boat... Maybe this is the true meaning of your joke.
Renshia
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I just can’t believe that people waste all this time being one thing for something else, they waste all this time and energy on developing some mythological construct as an excuse to live as a person should. What a pathetic waste of energy.
razorphreak --
I appreciate you comments and my hope was to make this an interesting thread. I do not think that Jeffrick's intention were to attack yo so much as to emphasize that your post seems more like your defending god's impotence, than presenting a valid argument.
I hope by my last post it will ad a little clarity. to my query.
If you find someone being ;less than kind in there responses, I suggest a couple things.
1st -- rise above it read thru the lines and respond around the insults... from my experiences you get way farther along by being above insults.. if nothing else it will drive the other person mad that you do not rise to the bait... that in itself is the best revenge.
2ND. you will need to understand that a lot of what you see is simply frustration that your views are different and that we just don't understand why you guys don't get it.
3rd You know in your above quoted post you really do sound like your having a pity party. Boo hoo suck it up and lose this self importance that causes you to live life as a victim.
State facts-- present evidence, if you have some. if you are only presenting your opinion clarify that as what the point, so as not to confuse the issue. Please remember that just because you have settle a question in your mind by settling for a meager representation of reality, does not mean we all have to.
Renshia
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I just can’t believe that people waste all this time being one thing for something else, they waste all this time and energy on developing some mythological construct as an excuse to live as a person should. What a pathetic waste of energy.
Forgive me for answering these out of order...this one was easier to respond to first...
Well we are discussing what miracles are according to the Christian's perspective are we not? The root of ALL atheistic arguments is there is NO valid argument when it comes to God so how can I present a "valid argument" that someone might respond to with reason? Hence the circular trap that is presented to every theist that actually takes the time to respond. First there is a question, then the response is attacked without any kind of rational point of view or intelligence. I'm no noob to this...
Bit hard to when you get more troll like behavior out of some. You can always identify that when it starts with "like all Christians YOU..." Automatically, the discussion "de-evolved."
Believe me when I say I understand the frustration portion. The problem is the last part of what you just said. "You guys" shows a bias, a closed minded approach that no matter who you speak with, who you respond to, it's always an us vs. them battle of some kind. Theists who come to this site with any level of intelligence are not here to pick a fight, are not here to convenience you to believe as they do, and will not try to "save" you.
Na. It's the frustration that comes when no one actually listens. I can't speak for anyone else that is a theist that posts on this site but as for me, when I say something you don't get, I'd prefer a question asking me to clarify vs. an assumption. Other atheists complain about the same thing from Christians so why return the favor if you wish to "rise above?"
Here's the problem though; we are talking theology. According to other posters and the founders of this very site, there are no "facts" when it comes to God. So what you are asking for will never be satisfied if you are approaching it expecting something you can see/taste/touch/smell. And if that is indeed what your expectations are, we are wasting our time.
I would hope that it not be the case. I would hope that there would be a desire to understand and meet in the middle with respect. But you tell me, can that be achieved with some of the previous posts in this thread, dropping f bombs left and right?
My eyes have seen all this, my ears have heard and understood it. What you know, I also know; I am not inferior to you. But I desire to speak to the Almighty and to argue my case with God. You, however, smear me with lies...(Job 13)
Well, let's take a look:
Non sequitor.
Non sequitor.
This entire parable? You guessed it:
Non sequitor.
Yes, the original post was about the absence of magical miracles from our present-day world. It's not about your perspective - the bible claimed that Jesus was able to bring people from dead to alive by laying hands on them. It doesn't say he consulted medical professionals put in place by God or used CPR - he touched them, and the Holy Spirit made it all better.
The question is: where have these miracles gone? They're supposed to follow the faithful, being readily at the disposal of anyone who believes.
Correct. The act of not believing or believing is making an argument. By choosing to accept God, you've made an argument (to yourself in nobody else) that God is real. By choosing to accept the bible as God's message, you've made an argument that it's content is perfectly valid.
This line of reasoning is hardly odd, thanks.
Oh, yays. We enter the world of absolutes.
Insults are insults. Hate is hate. I can hate you without insulting you, and I can insult you without hating you. I hate Adolf Hitler, but I missed the boat on insulting him. I regularly curse at my computer, but I hardly hate it.
Your parable was a non sequitor. Because God put emergency services into place for us, that's evidence for God still performing miracles to save people. It also still hasn't addressed the original issue, instead opting to tangent away from it into a discussion about your perceptions.
I wasn't asking you why they hadn't gone for proper treatment. The answer is obvious, and if you 'can't say why', I'll go ahead and step up to the plate: their faith in God.
I asked you why they were not magically healed by the Holy Spirit? Why weren't the faithful at the faith healing center able to lay hands on either girl and heal them? Jesus is very clearly described as doing this very thing for people in the Bible, and very clearly states that anyone of faith can perform the same deed. So, why isn't it working today? Where'd all the magic go running off to?
CAUTION:
This human being has more accumulated hours playing GI Joes in the bathtub than he has sleeping, owns more polyhedral dice than he does articles of clothing and has invested more money into his personal computer than most people do on their cars.
Communicate at your own risk.
Fair enough. From what I am understanding from your other post, you are looking for the definition that a "miracle" is a supernatural event right? What I'm trying to say is a "miracle" of this type is almost never seen, and worse, never believed. I can tell you that I saw something like that however will you believe me from just me telling you?
The bible says that every "good and perfect gift" is from God. The ability to learn, wisdom given, why some can conceive, why some can't, for those born with 10 fingers and 10 toes and for those who aren't, each "gift" can be different. Now I'm not saying that I can call everything a miracle since the chicken I just ate was not a miracle it was brought to my table. Nor was the fact that I stuck it in the oven to cook it, nor was the fact that it cooked. But there is the possibility that the fact that chickens exist is the miracle?
No. That's just good fortune.
Bible also says that if someone had the faith of a mustard seed much more is possible. But you did bring up a question in my mind; are you asking about can people do miracles and not God?
I understand the point of your joke but you seemed to have missed the point of mine. It had NOTHING to do with the dissolution of reason but rather the lack of faith.
People who are looking for the extraordinary are missing how simplistic "miracles" can be. Looking for those supernatural events is NOT how God is going to make you believe.
My eyes have seen all this, my ears have heard and understood it. What you know, I also know; I am not inferior to you. But I desire to speak to the Almighty and to argue my case with God. You, however, smear me with lies...(Job 13)
How so? The original premise of this post was about miracles. My response was about what can be identified as a miracle. How does that not follow?
So for you, a "miracle" is only about a supernatural event?
That is not the point of this thread of how I came to believe or not so I'm not going there with this.
Your argument there is missing facts in order to make it true. You HATED something your computer did so you cursed. There is a logical cause and effect there. Insults are ALWAYS the effect of hatred. But you are right, you can hate and not insult. That's not what happened here.