I'm a believer in God. Can you please help me fix it? [Trollville]

Paisley
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I'm a believer in God. Can you please help me fix it? [Trollville]

BMcD
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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:1,000

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

1,000 posts  

You know, I bet if we have the patience for it, Paisley'll be good for 1000 pages of thread.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


I AM GOD AS YOU
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Yeah B , as you mean a

Yeah B , as you mean a thousand more !  YUP, P loves us , and I love P. Thing is, I love P more !      


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BMcD wrote: You know, I bet

BMcD wrote:

 

You know, I bet if we have the patience for it, Paisley'll be good for 1000 pages of thread.

I bet you're right....and after he has proudly crafted his 250,000'th rebuttal he will still have absolutely nothing to show for it.  How's that for being absurd ?

 

( Paisley at keyboard:  "I must defeat atheists !   I must defeat atheists !  I must defeat atheists ! "


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BMcD wrote:Paisley

BMcD wrote:
Paisley wrote:
Yes, more or less. I am being forced to repeat myself because the atheist is refusing to accept the logical consequences of his worldview.

Actually, I think what you're having difficulty with is not that we're not accepting the logical conclusion, but that our response is more or less 'yeah... so?', and we're failing to recoil in horror from what you seem to think is a fatal flaw to our position: the lack of "Ultimate Purpose".

But the fact is that you're not accepting the logical conclusion of your worldview - namely, that it is absurd. And this is made evident in your following post.

BMcD wrote:
Paisley wrote:
sandwiches wrote:
So, from this and your earlier posts, I take it that you cannot accept a materialistic view because it has no ultimate meaning for life. Am I correct?

Yes, I refuse to accept it because it is an absurd worldview.

Despite having, in the end, no real, objective, measurable and verifiable evidence that it's false, save your own stubborn stamping of your foot and crying 'I don't like it!'. There's nothing irrational about the absurd under the definition of absurd that applies to the lack of "ultimate purpose". There's nothing internally contradictory, either, and try as you might, in the end all you achieve is to continue an internet forum argument, laboring under the delusion that you can win. Why bother? Smiling

Your worldview is absurd. Ranting and raving will not change this fact.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Saying the same thing over

Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it true.


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Paisley wrote:
Yes, I have. You have already conceded the point that your personal life is ultimately meaningless and pointless. This probably explains why you have chosen to identify yourself as "ProzacDeathWish."

Ooooooooo, such venom !!!   It's nice to know that I really got under your skin. What's the matter, getting frustrated ?

( ....I see you are in the habit of writing concession speeches for your opponents;  tsk tsk, is that the only way you can achieve your "victory" ? )

You already conceded this point in post #218 pg. 7. Let's refresh your memory by reposting it here...

ProzacDeathWish post#218 pg. 7 wrote:
Paisley wrote:
In the atheistic worldview, whether an atheist experiences all he can experience is meaningless in the vast scheme of things. The universe could care less (metaphorically speaking).

I agree. I accept that I am insignificant in the "vast scheme of things".  Even among  my own species, which now number over 6 billion, I am insignificant beyond the  small sphere of my personal influence. Since that is an issue that is beyond my control why should it bother me ?

I accept that I will die and be forgotten.  The same is true of every generation that is born and then passes away into obscurity, never to return.  The process is beyond my control.

The universe is cruel and indifferent....so, what should I do throw a temper tantrum ?  Hire an attorney and file a lawsuit ?

Or better yet, perhaps to elevate my sense of self-worth I will do as so many others have done and simply tap into my imagination and invent a god to jealously fawn over me.

 

 

 

"Our existence is but a brief crack of light between two eternities of darkness."  Vladimir Nabokov ( 1899-1977) Russian-American novelist

"Man is certainly stark mad; he cannot make a worm, yet he will make gods by the dozen." Michel de Montaigne ( 1533-1592) 

 

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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BMcD wrote:Paisley

BMcD wrote:
Paisley wrote:
ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Paisley wrote:
I am being forced to repeat myself because the atheist is refusing to accept the logical consequences of his worldview.

And based upon the available evidence, how many more times do you estimate that you will have to repeat yourself before we atheists suddenly relent?  Had any success so far?

Yes, I have. You have already conceded the point that your personal life is ultimately meaningless and pointless. This probably explains why you have chosen to identify yourself as "ProzacDeathWish."

Conceded? You make it sound like it's a bad thing. Perhaps my life is 'ultimately' meaningless and pointless. So what?

The "so what" is that there is no "perhaps." Based on your worldview, your personal life is ultimately meaningless and pointless. Please acknowledge it without making any qualifications or preconditions. 

BMcD wrote:
What puzzles me is why you seem to think this is some kind of weakness in the atheistic viewpoint,

If it were not viewed as some kind of weakness, then atheists participating in this thread would not continue to deny it.  

BMcD wrote:
Why you get so worked up over the idea that for us to find value and worth in our lives, we don't need them to have some eternal purpose beyond that simple endeavor of having value and worth for us.

I'm not getting worked up. Quite the contrary. The atheists on this thread are the ones having the hissy fit. Why? Because they cannot acknowledge that,  based on their worldview of atheistic materialism, their personal lives are ultimately meaningless and pointless.

BMcD wrote:
Why does that idea twist your knickers so badly? Why do you seem so deeply outraged and offended that I don't need the "ultimate purpose" you're pushing? Or that Prozac doesn't?

I'm not offended. I'm simply demanding a modicum of intellectual honesty in this discussion. If you believe that life is ulitmately without meaning and purpose, then I must insist that you conclude that your personal life is ultimately meaningless and pointless.

BMcD wrote:
I find my fulfillment here. You find it in the idea of a loving god, who provided you with a world and a life... that you spit upon, denounce as not worthwhile on its own merits, and then turn back to that loving provider and demand more from.

Frankly, I still say that's damned obnoxious and the actions of an arrogant ingrate, but hey, if spitting in the face of your god and telling him he didn't do a good enough job for your satisfaction is what makes you feel good about yourself, have fun with it.

I'm not demanding anything except that you admit the logical conclusions of your worldview.

Incidentally, it would appear that most atheists on this forum find fulfilment by spending an inordinate amount of their personal time arguing against a so-called "non-existent" God. How absurd is this?!

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Paisley

Paisley wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Paisley wrote:
Yes, I have. You have already conceded the point that your personal life is ultimately meaningless and pointless. This probably explains why you have chosen to identify yourself as "ProzacDeathWish."

Ooooooooo, such venom !!!   It's nice to know that I really got under your skin. What's the matter, getting frustrated ?

( ....I see you are in the habit of writing concession speeches for your opponents;  tsk tsk, is that the only way you can achieve your "victory" ? )

You already conceded this point in post #218 pg. 7. Let's refresh your memory by reposting it here...

ProzacDeathWish post#218 pg. 7 wrote:
Paisley wrote:
In the atheistic worldview, whether an atheist experiences all he can experience is meaningless in the vast scheme of things. The universe could care less (metaphorically speaking).

I agree. I accept that I am insignificant in the "vast scheme of things".  Even among  my own species, which now number over 6 billion, I am insignificant beyond the  small sphere of my personal influence. Since that is an issue that is beyond my control why should it bother me ?

I accept that I will die and be forgotten.  The same is true of every generation that is born and then passes away into obscurity, never to return.  The process is beyond my control.

The universe is cruel and indifferent....so, what should I do throw a temper tantrum ?  Hire an attorney and file a lawsuit ?

Or better yet, perhaps to elevate my sense of self-worth I will do as so many others have done and simply tap into my imagination and invent a god to jealously fawn over me.

 

 

 

"Our existence is but a brief crack of light between two eternities of darkness."  Vladimir Nabokov ( 1899-1977) Russian-American novelist

"Man is certainly stark mad; he cannot make a worm, yet he will make gods by the dozen." Michel de Montaigne ( 1533-1592) 

 

 

Actually my choice of ProzacDeathWish is based upon a severe chemical imbalance inside of my brain that induces deep despair ( hence my poetic usage ).  It is an inherited condition completely beyond my control.  Even when I was a "Born again, Bible believing, prayer saying, church going THEIST" I  suffered in the same way and experienced the same despair.

What a devious way for you to interpret my mental illness.  I was born this way you fucking jerk.  It hasn't a thing to do with my current lack of theistic beliefs.

 

Also, I will interpret your preceding post as your concession that you are an utter MORON.

 

 


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zarathustra wrote:Paisley

zarathustra wrote:
Paisley wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Paisley wrote:
I am being forced to repeat myself because the atheist is refusing to accept the logical consequences of his worldview.

And based upon the available evidence, how many more times do you estimate that you will have to repeat yourself before we atheists suddenly relent?  Had any success so far?

Yes, I have. You have already conceded the point that your personal life is ultimately meaningless and pointless. This probably explains why you have chosen to identify yourself as "ProzacDeathWish." 

I didn't concede that point.  I readily asserted it.  And I challenged you to thereupon demonstrate how an absurd wordlview is irrational, or in contrast to "demonstrate rationally (not NON-rationally), the basis for your worldview".  

And you ignored me.

No, I haven't ignored you. I have repeatedly stated in this thread that if something is absurd then it is irrational by definition.

Quote:
absurd 1: ridiculously unreasonable, unsound, or incongruous <an absurd argument>2: having no rational or orderly relationship to human life : meaningless <an absurd universe>; also : lacking order or value <an absurd existence>3: dealing with the absurd or with absurdism <absurd theater> (source: Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary)
 

Your worldview is "ridiculously unreasonable, unsound or incongruous."

Your worldview "has no rational or orderly relationship to human life."

Your worldview is "meaningless."

Your wordview is one "lacking order or value."

Your worldview is ABSURD! 

zarathustra wrote:
And if you respond along the lines of "irrational is absurd....absurd is irrational", be advised (as you have been already -- many times) that that is simply a circular argument.  An absurd argument.  An irrational argument.  A stupid argument.

Evidently, you are confusing a circular argument with the definition of a "synonym." This is...well...absurd!

Quote:
synonym : one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or nearly the same meaning in some or all senses (source: Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary)
 

zarathustra wrote:
You, for your part, conceded the point that your belief was "wishful thinking or fantasy".   I pointed out to you that wishful thinking or fantasizing that god exists does not mean god exists.

I said that my belief is borne of faith.  What is "wishful thinking" is the atheist's belief that he can oppose the Will of God. 

zarathustra wrote:
[So you are not being forced to repeat yourself "because the atheist is refusing to accept the logical consequences of his worldview".  You are forcing yourself to repeat yourself because you really having nothing other than your circular (absurd/irrational/stupid) argument to go on.  And you apparently force yourself to repeatedly ignore my posts.  Just as you haven't the fortitude to face the absurdity of life (and must instead wishfully think up a god to pacify yourself), you haven't the fortitude to face down critiques which lay bare the tawdry dishonesty of your argument.

You err. Faith is not the lack of emotional fortitude. Quite the contrary. It is the power of God which expresses itself in the believer as the "courage to be." Without faith, there is no emotional fortitude. Without faith, there is no courage to face the vagaries and vicissitudes of life.

Quote:
"He who is grasped by this power is able to affirm himself because he knows he is affirmed by the power of being-itself. In this point mystical experience and personal encounter are identical. In both of them faith is the basis of the courage to be."

source: pg. 173 "The Courage To Be" by Paul Tillich

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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 Paisley wrote: BMcD

 

Paisley wrote:

BMcD wrote:

Conceded? You make it sound like it's a bad thing. Perhaps my life is 'ultimately' meaningless and pointless. So what?

The "so what" is that there is no "perhaps." Based on your worldview, your personal life is ultimately meaningless and pointless. Please acknowledge it without making any qualifications or preconditions. 

BMcD wrote:
What puzzles me is why you seem to think this is some kind of weakness in the atheistic viewpoint,

If it were not viewed as some kind of weakness, then atheists participating in this thread would not continue to deny it. 

What I think many others continue to deny though I’m sure they’ll “ultimately” (pun intended) speak for themselves, and what I’m denying right now, is the importance to all this. I don’t believe my life is ultimately meaningful. And, being that it probably isn’t, I’m not concerned about it. What I am concerned with, is why you’re concerned that I don’t perceive any ultimate meaning.

Though I’m not sure about the terms’ accuracy, I’ll say for the sake of argument that I’m a “materialist atheist”, and I will conclude and concede that I have no ultimate meaning. Now, I ask you: so what?

On the other hand, I’m under the impression from reading this thread (an arduous task) is that when many atheists have responded in rebuttal to your ultimate meaning, they were talking about personal meaning. And, you take that to mean that they’re saying they have ultimate meaning… maybe I’m wrong?

Many atheists I believe, and I myself, have personal meaning in my life. That is, non-ultimate meaning.

Paisley wrote:

BMcD wrote:
Why you get so worked up over the idea that for us to find value and worth in our lives, we don't need them to have some eternal purpose beyond that simple endeavor of having value and worth for us.

I'm not getting worked up. Quite the contrary. The atheists on this thread are the ones having the hissy fit. Why? Because they cannot acknowledge that,  based on their worldview of atheistic materialism, their personal lives are ultimately meaningless and pointless.

BMcD wrote:
Why does that idea twist your knickers so badly? Why do you seem so deeply outraged and offended that I don't need the "ultimate purpose" you're pushing? Or that Prozac doesn't?

I'm not offended. I'm simply demanding a modicum of intellectual honesty in this discussion. If you believe that life is ulitmately without meaning and purpose, then I must insist that you conclude that your personal life is ultimately meaningless and pointless.

I can’t go that far, but I will say that I don’t believe life is ultimately meaningful, and I also don’t believe that my personal life is ultimately meaningful. I don’t have the impression, though I could be wrong, that anyone else here has said anything different.

Paisley wrote:

 

BMcD wrote:
I find my fulfillment here. You find it in the idea of a loving god, who provided you with a world and a life... that you spit upon, denounce as not worthwhile on its own merits, and then turn back to that loving provider and demand more from.

Frankly, I still say that's damned obnoxious and the actions of an arrogant ingrate, but hey, if spitting in the face of your god and telling him he didn't do a good enough job for your satisfaction is what makes you feel good about yourself, have fun with it.

I'm not demanding anything except that you admit the logical conclusions of your worldview.

Incidentally, it would appear that most atheists on this forum find fulfilment by spending an inordinate amount of their personal time arguing against a so-called "non-existent" God. How absurd is this?!

Do you find (if even a little) fulfillment teaching children how to think that Zeus, the easter bunny, etc… don’t exist? I hope so.

A person with delusions can be dangerous… a whole society with delusions can be extremely dangerous.

And, what was the OP? Oh yea, something about you (apparently challenging us, not asking us) to fix your god-belief. Would you rather we not reply? If that be the case, why bother posting the OP in the first place?


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magilum wrote:Paisley

magilum wrote:
Paisley wrote:
magilum wrote:
And you're a clothing pattern associated with Birkenstock sandals, cheap incense, unkempt armpits, and a disproportionate sense of social relevance.

And I'm a Sumerian death ship.

Oh, and all of your arguments have been a complete, unmitigated failure; and I'm still waiting for you to admit your recovering-fundy status.

You call this a logical argument?

Are you really so desperate you have to reframe what are obviously just insults toward you as arguments? You've presented 30+ pages of uninterrupted twaddle so inane even your nominal peers (panentheists) have thrown their hands up in disgust.?

You're making my point. Evidently, the only thing you're capable of is making lame, personal attacks. If you want to debate, then I suggest you learn how to construct a logical argument. If not, then don't bother.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Paisley wrote: Without

Paisley wrote:

 

 

 Without faith, there is no emotional fortitude. Without faith, there is no courage to face the vagaries and vicissitudes of life.

 

I have no faith in God.  Yet I have so far faced up to the unrelenting torment of mental illness....with help from no one.  Oh, it's a lot of fun.

I only wish that I could somehow project that turmoil into your little virgin mind  just so I could watch you crumble under it's unexpected weight......then watch you cry out to your god, you pussy.

 

 


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My appreciation and awe of

Let me now imitate teacher P.  "My appreciation and awe of everything (gawed) is better than yours, therefore yours is absurd. Now that you understand this "faith" of mine, have a nice day you fools! "

   Wow, thanks teacher P,  I feel healed now  .....?! 


ctressle
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 Paisley wrote:

 

Paisley wrote:

zarathustra wrote:

I didn't concede that point.  I readily asserted it.  And I challenged you to thereupon demonstrate how an absurd wordlview is irrational, or in contrast to "demonstrate rationally (not NON-rationally), the basis for your worldview".  

And you ignored me.

No, I haven't ignored you. I have repeatedly stated in this thread that if something is absurd then it is irrational by definition.

Quote:
absurd 1: ridiculously unreasonable, unsound, or incongruous <an absurd argument>2: having no rational or orderly relationship to human life : meaningless <an absurd universe>; also : lacking order or value <an absurd existence>3: dealing with the absurd or with absurdism <absurd theater> (source: Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary)
 

Your worldview is "ridiculously unreasonable, unsound or incongruous."

Your worldview "has no rational or orderly relationship to human life."

Your worldview is "meaningless."

Your wordview is one "lacking order or value."

Your worldview is ABSURD! 

ctressle wrote:

What I think many others continue to deny though I’m sure they’ll “ultimately” (pun intended) speak for themselves, and what I’m denying right now, is the importance to all this. I don’t believe my life is ultimately meaningful. And, being that it probably isn’t, I’m not concerned about it. What I am concerned with, is why you’re concerned that I don’t perceive any ultimate meaning.

On the other hand, I’m under the impression from reading this thread (an arduous task) is that when many atheists have responded in rebuttal to your ultimate meaning, they were talking about personal meaning. And, you take that to mean that they’re saying they have ultimate meaning… maybe I’m wrong?

Many atheists I believe, and I myself, have personal meaning in my life. That is, non-ultimate meaning.

Paisley wrote:

BMcD wrote:
Why you get so worked up over the idea that for us to find value and worth in our lives, we don't need them to have some eternal purpose beyond that simple endeavor of having value and worth for us.

I'm not getting worked up. Quite the contrary. The atheists on this thread are the ones having the hissy fit. Why? Because they cannot acknowledge that,  based on their worldview of atheistic materialism, their personal lives are ultimately meaningless and pointless.

BMcD wrote:
Why does that idea twist your knickers so badly? Why do you seem so deeply outraged and offended that I don't need the "ultimate purpose" you're pushing? Or that Prozac doesn't?

I'm not offended. I'm simply demanding a modicum of intellectual honesty in this discussion. If you believe that life is ulitmately without meaning and purpose, then I must insist that you conclude that your personal life is ultimately meaningless and pointless.

I can’t go that far, but I will say that I don’t believe life is ultimately meaningful, and I also don’t believe that my personal life is ultimately meaningful. I don’t have the impression, though I could be wrong, that anyone else here has said anything different.

Our worldviews are rather meaningful.

Our worldviews consist of:

Gravity - all objects fall toward the center of all other objects (of course this creates a kind of tug-of-war where matter clumps together etc&hellipEye-wink

The earth is round.

2+2 = 4.

Etc…

My family and friends love me.

This is Saturday of May.

My hair is probably in need of being cut, and it is brown. (this applies specifically to me)

I have visited my mother recently. (this applies specifically to me)

Etc…

Explain to me Paisley, how any of these elements of a given worldview are irrational? Or that their collection is altogether irrational? These worldviews will of course correlate to specific lives, but nevertheless each individual’s worldview and thus life is probably not without meaning. Without ultimate meaning perhaps, but not without any meaning that I can see.


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Paisley wrote:childish If

Paisley wrote:
childish

 

 If you want to debate, then I suggest you learn how to construct a logical argument. If not, then don't bother.

What about your own magnificently constructed arguments ?   What have you to show for all your effort ?  Pages and pages of posts from people who disagree with you ?  

Oh yes, and your childish gimmick of manufacturing victories by accusing us of "conceding" this or that point when you know that we have done no such thing.  I believe those qualify as hollow victories.

Or that lame assertion of our "lurking god belief"  followed by a liberal sprinkling of your favorite word "absurd"

 


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You haven't come anywhere

You haven't come anywhere close to proving what you want. Mere assertions and language tricks wont work here. Only dillholes use those methods. Don't you wonder why this wound up in trollville?

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


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Paisley wrote:BMcD

Paisley wrote:

BMcD wrote:
Paisley wrote:
Yes, more or less. I am being forced to repeat myself because the atheist is refusing to accept the logical consequences of his worldview.

Actually, I think what you're having difficulty with is not that we're not accepting the logical conclusion, but that our response is more or less 'yeah... so?', and we're failing to recoil in horror from what you seem to think is a fatal flaw to our position: the lack of "Ultimate Purpose".

But the fact is that you're not accepting the logical conclusion of your worldview - namely, that it is absurd. And this is made evident in your following post.

Er... sorry, you're wrong again. Here, let me spell it out for you:

In the sense of 'absurd' that means 'lacking ultimate meaning', I operate under an absurd worldview: My worldview neither ascribes, nor compels me to seek, an 'ultimate meaning'. I accept this. I embrace it. At no point has anyone here arguing in favor of the lack of ultimate meaning denied that particular (and ultimately meaningless) point of semantics. However, in the sense of 'absurd' that means 'silly, nonsensical, foolish', that absurdity is not absurd, which is the conflation you have consistently attempted to enforce.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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Paisley...

Thanks for reinforcing the viewpoint that theists are suffering from delusion disorder.

"Based on your worldview, your personal life is ultimately meaningless and pointless. Please acknowledge it without making any qualifications or preconditions. "

No, it is only you that is saying that without god our life is meaningless and pointless. We are free to give our lives our own meaning. I think it is up to an individual to decide whether their life is pointless or not, you can't decide that for them.

"If it were not viewed as some kind of weakness, then atheists participating in this thread would not continue to deny it. "

Or we could continue to deny it because it is not true. That is a very good reason. Otherwise I can turn the tables easily enough. You keep denying that your god does not exist, therefore he does not exist. see how that is crap logic?

"I'm not getting worked up. Quite the contrary. The atheists on this thread are the ones having the hissy fit. Why? Because they cannot acknowledge that,  based on their worldview of atheistic materialism, their personal lives are ultimately meaningless and pointless."

See above, just because you keep sayng something does not make it true.

"I'm not offended. I'm simply demanding a modicum of intellectual honesty in this discussion. If you believe that life is ulitmately without meaning and purpose, then I must insist that you conclude that your personal life is ultimately meaningless and pointless."

Didn't you just say that we won't admit it? Who has said that we believe that? Where is your intellectual honesty?

"Incidentally, it would appear that most atheists on this forum find fulfilment by spending an inordinate amount of their personal time arguing against a so-called "non-existent" God. How absurd is this?!"

We do this because people like you keep saying that there is a god. If someone kept telling you that there was an invisiable UFO parked on your front lawn, I'm sure you would keep denying it. Stop saying that there is a god and we won't have to bother.

I think we need to go back to post #1. NO. I really don't think that we can help you.

 

 

Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.

Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51


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I must say, you Atheists are

I must say, you Atheists are a "saving healing" bunch. I feel  that "gawedly" love !  

   ))))  "I feel good  (horns sound)  like sugar and spice" ......    


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I believe this insufferably

I believe this insufferably long thread is actually an indication of Paisley's inability to come to grips with the fact that most of we atheists are actually quite happy with our lack of god-belief.  We have no need of his superstitions and apparently that greatly annoys him. 

 

Perhaps he came here expecting to achieve some sort of philosophical victory in the name of theism and when it didn't happen he only grew more determined to relegate us to some dreary, "absurd" meaningless life.

( P = PaisleyA = Atheist )

 

P. "You have a meaningless, absurd life."

A. "No I don't.  I live a vibrant, rewarding life"

P. "You are wrong. The Universal Mind told me that your existence is unsatisfying and dreary."

A. "I don't believe in the Universal Mind."

P. "Oh, so you concede that I am right !"

A. "What the fuck ?"

 

Numerous atheists denied his baseless assertions and began to admit that they were quite happy and fulfilled living their lives completely free of theism.....and that must have utterly pissed him off.

In summary:

1.) Paisley's arrogance and overconfidence is what brought this thread into existence...

and

2.)  his inability to suppress the reality of contentment and fulfillment among the majority of his atheist opponents produced a sense of frustration that kept him coming back over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and.........

3.)  He was unable to convince us of the superiority of his superstitous beliefs and he cannot  accept that.

4.)  Even though Paisley so passionately disapproves of our atheism it shall remain purely his own problem to deal with....as it should be.

 


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Expect a rebuttal from

Expect a rebuttal from Paisley to arrive very soon......


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Expect

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Expect a rebuttal from Paisley to arrive very soon......

If you're curious, he's spewing more shit over here:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/13046

 


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Paisley wrote:zarathustra

Paisley wrote:


zarathustra wrote:


I didn't concede that point.  I readily asserted it.  And I challenged you to thereupon demonstrate how an absurd wordlview is irrational, or in contrast to "demonstrate rationally (not NON-rationally), the basis for your worldview". 

And you ignored me.


No, I haven't ignored you. I have repeatedly stated in this thread that if something is absurd then it is irrational by definition.



Yes, you have ignored me.  I have pointed out to you more than once that in order to demonstrate that the absurd worldview (i.e, the worldview that life is ultimately meaningless) is irrational, you must show how that worldview is fallacious or contradictory.   Conversely (as I have pointed out to you -- MORE THAN ONCE), you need to demonstrate rationally (not NON-rationally...read that again paisley; RATIONALLY, not NON-rationally), the basis for your worldview.  Must I remind you how many times in succession I asked you to:

Quote:
explain how you rationally arrived at your pantheistic belief


which you effectively ignored before conveniently switching your tune?

Paisley wrote:


Quote:
absurd 1: ridiculously unreasonable, unsound, or incongruous <an absurd argument>2: having no rational or orderly relationship to human life : meaningless <an absurd universe>; also : lacking order or value <an absurd existence>3: dealing

with the absurd or with absurdism <absurd theater> (source: Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary)


Your worldview is "ridiculously unreasonable, unsound or incongruous."

Your worldview "has no rational or orderly relationship to human life."

Your worldview is "meaningless."

Your wordview is one "lacking order or value."

Your worldview is ABSURD!


Equivocating on the definition of a word and then availing yourself of a dictionary entry does not constitute a sound argument.  Even should I charitably allow your equivocation, you still fail:  I have already clearly acknowledged (more than once) that life lacks value; that our existence is indeed absurd.  This happens to be just one of the alternate meanings listed for the 2nd definition.  For you to baldly apply the 1st definition as well is a gross (and desperate) act of conflation.  If this is the only way you can arrive at your conclusion that atheism is irrational, then you have nothing.

And...since you rely so slavishly on reference books for saving your sorry arguments:   A brief consultation of any book of logic would apprise you that presupposition (something you openly admit to using in formulating your belief in god) is inadmissible in a logical argument.  You should know full well that any argument that presupposes god's existence is illogical.  Irrational.  Absurd.

I have already pointed this out to you.  And yes, you have ignored it.

Your argument is ridiculously unreasonable, unsound and incongruous.

Your argument is meaningless.

Your argument lacks value.

Your argument is ... Pferdscheiß.

Paisley wrote:


zarathustra wrote:
And if you respond along the lines of "irrational is absurd....absurd is irrational", be advised (as you have been already -- many times) that that is simply a circular argument.  An absurd argument.  An irrational argument.  A stupid argument.


Evidently, you are confusing a circular argument with the definition of a "synonym." This is...well...absurd!


Evidently, you are confused; playing ping-pong with synonyms is effectively the same thing as a circular argument. 
Providing a synonym when asked for a definition, and then merely providing the antecedent when asked for the definition of said synonym is circular.  I know you rode the short bus to logic school, but there is no excuse for being confused about this.   You in no way advance your argument, nor our ability to understand your argument by regurgitating "I is A...A is I" over and over.  Should you in fact hold any interest in advancing your argument, let me advise you (yet again), that:

in order to demonstrate that the absurd worldview (i.e, the worldview that life is ultimately meaningless) is irrational, you must show how that worldview is fallacious or contradictory.   Conversely (as I have pointed out to you -- MORE THAN ONCE), you need to demonstrate rationally (not NON-rationally...read that again paisley; RATIONALLY, not NON-rationally), the basis for your worldview. 

And yes, you have ignored me.  By all leading indicators, you will continue to do so.


Paisley wrote:



zarathustra wrote:
You, for your part, conceded the point that your belief was "wishful thinking or fantasy".   I pointed out to you that wishful thinking or fantasizing that god exists does not mean god exists.


I said that my belief is borne of faith.  What is "wishful thinking" is the atheist's belief that he can oppose the Will of God.

You, for your part, conceded the point that your belief was "wishful thinking or fantasy".   If you don't believe me, have the integrity to click on the generously provided link this time.   And have the integrity not to project your fatuousness onto me; I don't believe in god, let alone a will of god for me to oppose.  Don't make false accusations.  Makes you look bad.

Paisley wrote:


zarathustra wrote:
[So you are not being forced to repeat yourself "because the atheist is refusing to accept the logical consequences of his worldview".  You are forcing yourself to repeat yourself because you really having nothing other than your circular (absurd/irrational/stupid) argument to go on.  And you apparently force yourself to repeatedly ignore my posts.  Just as you haven't the fortitude to face the absurdity of life (and must instead wishfully think up a god to pacify yourself), you haven't the fortitude to face down critiques which lay bare the tawdry dishonesty of your argument.


You err. Faith is not the lack of emotional fortitude. Quite the contrary. It is the power of God which expresses itself in the believer as the "courage to be." Without faith, there is no emotional fortitude. Without faith, there is no courage to face the vagaries and vicissitudes of life.

You err...and you know full well that you do.  The atheist, ipso facto, faces the vagaries and vicissitudes of life without any opium-laced "god is love" belief.  Once again...(try not to ignore it this time) YOU CONCEDED THE POINT THAT YOUR BELIEF IS "WISHFUL THINKING OR FANTASY".   You are the one fantasizing that god exists, in order to cope with your absurd existence.  Inventing imaginary friends to help you face reality is hardly an act of courage. 

Paisley wrote:



Quote:
"He who is grasped by this power is able to affirm himself because he knows he is affirmed by the power of being-itself. In this point mystical experience and personal encounter are identical. In both of them faith is the basis of the courage to be."

source: pg. 173 "The Courage To Be" by Paul Tillich

 

Yet another instance of your hodge-podge strategy of defending this nebulous, poorly-defined god-belief of yours.  As you freely admitted in another one of your threads of abject inanity:

Quote:
I allow myself the luxury to change theological views as I see appropriate.

Quite so.  You will keep vomiting the same tropes, quoting incongruous sources, and spouting incoherent drivel to support this pantheistic, panENtheistic, non-christian --oops!-- trinitarian, tantric, rational --oops!-- non-rational, presupposed, intuitive, tongue-in-cheek, wishful-thinking, (and much, much MORE!!!) belief in "god". 

And whenever your "argument" falters -- which is pretty much always, you will gladly backtrack, re-define, dodge and ignore...as you see appropriate.

Let's look at that definition of absurd again.

 

[edited for venom and links]

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


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Geezz Paisley, I wish you'd

Geezz Paisley, I wish you'd focus on smashing the "god of abe". I think you'd be more "worldly" helpful. I am fine with"everything is god" if NO dogma is implied. To me, "Good"  Pantheism is without dogma, and just communicating the "awe" of consciousness, and can be very helpful to healing the god of abe followers. .... Thing is, the atheists are in awe too, as I AM, as we all are. ....  Language babel is a huge problem ....

   Save the Xains P, the atheists are "saved" .... zero superstition .... zero dogma ....

   For whats is worth , thanks a bunch Paisley, REALLY , and keep your love light burning .... Now wise up Jesus scolded, quick draw, emotional Peter, calling him Satan ....      why ? > DOGMA <

Hey, no one is perfect !  Not even Jesus/Buddha ..... Let's all get smarter.  Love the enemy ! 

I confess, I AM guilty ..... you all are my witnesses ! Dang me, they oughta take rope and hang me .....    Thanks for forgiving me, and understanding ..... I am only god too, just as you ....      Reach for Utopia ! 


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So, Paisley is trapped in

So, Paisley is trapped in this carrousel he's constructed now:

1) A materialistic world view is one where there is no ultimate purpose in life.

2) I'll use 'absurd' as meaning "Having no ultimate purpose"

3) So, a materialistic world view is an absurd one (having no ultimate purpose)

4) Now, I'll use 'absurd' as meaning "unreasonable"

5) A materialistic world view is an absurd one (unreasonable)

Therefore:

6) A materialistic world view is unreasonable

 

I guess the more you repeat it the longer the demons of cognitive dissonance will stay away.


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sandwiches wrote:So, Paisley

sandwiches wrote:

So, Paisley is trapped in this carrousel he's constructed now:

1) A materialistic world view is one where there is no ultimate purpose in life.

2) I'll use 'absurd' as meaning "Having no ultimate purpose"

3) So, a materialistic world view is an absurd one (having no ultimate purpose)

4) Now, I'll use 'absurd' as meaning "unreasonable"

5) A materialistic world view is an absurd one (unreasonable)

Therefore:

6) A materialistic world view is unreasonable

The atheist views the world as ultimately being absurd. Hence, he has an absurd worldview. It's that simple. Even your fellow atheists are conceding this point...

zarathustra wrote:
 I have already clearly acknowledged (more than once) that life lacks value; that our existence is indeed absurd.

 

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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WARNING! Turn off all

WARNING! Turn off all bullshit detectors before clicking on this thread. BUllshit detectors may explode if exposed to this thread.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


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Paisley wrote:sandwiches

Paisley wrote:

sandwiches wrote:

So, Paisley is trapped in this carrousel he's constructed now:

1) A materialistic world view is one where there is no ultimate purpose in life.

2) I'll use 'absurd' as meaning "Having no ultimate purpose"

3) So, a materialistic world view is an absurd one (having no ultimate purpose)

4) Now, I'll use 'absurd' as meaning "unreasonable"

5) A materialistic world view is an absurd one (unreasonable)

Therefore:

6) A materialistic world view is unreasonable

The atheist views the world as ultimately being absurd. Hence, he has an absurd worldview. It's that simple. Even your fellow atheists are conceding this point...

zarathustra wrote:
 I have already clearly acknowledged (more than once) that life lacks value; that our existence is indeed absurd.

 

Don't get too dizzy, old sport.


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Paisley. Most of us can

Paisley. Most of us can debate both sides of the "absurd" issue. Yin Yang. Keeping a sense of the "middle" is important, the buddhists remind us. Let's ponder some "stupid" , ???

   The cosmos has no beginning, end, nor purpose? Or, the cosmos is self aware and knows its purpose? I am a product of the universe. Do I have purpose, and am I really aware, and if so, to what degree? Should I "judge" the degree?

We can go on and on with this stuff, but I'm really extra brain dead tonight. Where's my rum ? ..... found it !   

Thing is, by these very questions we all have, we can say everything is both, absurd, and not absurd. I had no choice in my creation nor destiny?, so I am absurd?  I am energy/matter so I can never die? , so I am not absurd?  Is how smart I am a clue to my absurdity questions? If I knew everything, what would the answer be? Are some people absurd and others not? What about a tree? 

My point is; this is leading me no where, except to realize the questioning is intuitive to my human nature. Does every thing that exists have an opposite?  Or when they do, is one right and good and the other bad and wrong?

   questions / answers, is that all there is ? And anti E/M too ?  Absurd?  yes/no ?

  Proper Judgment ?  That's a doozzzie !  ....  Like the "free will" debates .... LMFAO? , is my favorite answer. Story atheist Buddha laughed when asked about 'gawed' ! Story atheist Jesus wasn't so fortunate ....  Ouch ....

What is progress ??? !!! OH , No more people as dumb as ME !!!   

    

   

 


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According to your views what

According to your views what exactly makes the "ultimate purpose" purposeful?

Sounds made up...
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Paisley wrote:sandwiches

Paisley wrote:

sandwiches wrote:

So, Paisley is trapped in this carrousel he's constructed now:

1) A materialistic world view is one where there is no ultimate purpose in life.

2) I'll use 'absurd' as meaning "Having no ultimate purpose"

3) So, a materialistic world view is an absurd one (having no ultimate purpose)

4) Now, I'll use 'absurd' as meaning "unreasonable"

5) A materialistic world view is an absurd one (unreasonable)

Therefore:

6) A materialistic world view is unreasonable

The atheist views the world as ultimately being absurd. Hence, he has an absurd worldview. It's that simple. Even your fellow atheists are conceding this point...

Which does not mean the atheist worldview is unreasonable, which is what you strongly imply. Either demonstrate that your conflation of semantics has value, or concede that it's simply linguistic sleight-of-hand.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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Paisley wrote: The atheist

Paisley wrote:

 

The atheist views the world as ultimately being "absurd". Hence, he has an "absurd" worldview. It's that simple. Even your fellow atheists are "conceding" this point....

 

"Absurd, absurd, concede, absurd, concede, absurd, concede......."

Paisley totally lacks *self awareness, doesn't he ?   I'm surprised he didn't throw in a couple of "lurking god beliefs" in for good measure.  He's now actually become a living parody of himself.  How bizarre. 

 

 


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Truth: Is there such a thing?

Is the world flat or round?

Does the Earth revolve around the Sun?

In 2008, we're pretty sure of the truth of these questions.

So is there an absolute truth, where everything outside of it is a lie?

There must be.

Otherwise there is no such thing as truth, only what we want it to be. And we can't all be right.


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To dissipate the anger of angry atheists

ThusSaidYAH wrote:

Is the world flat or round?

Does the Earth revolve around the Sun?

In 2008, we're pretty sure of the truth of these questions.

So is there an absolute truth, where everything outside of it is a lie?

There must be.

Otherwise there is no such thing as truth, only what we want it to be. And we can't all be right.

I am a minimalist theist, I have the human certainty that God exists, and I understand God to be the maker of heaven and earth. About truth, there is such a thing as truth or truths only we don't know the whole truths and nothing but the truths. In the meantime as we live and conduct our affairs we have got to observe the laws of biology and physics as we know them if for no other reason except to live safely, healthily, happily, and for long years. About atheists, I see most broadly that there are two kinds, the angry kind and the non-angry kind. Theists and atheists and all other humans make up mankind. Now if we consider mankind as a family, then all of us are children of our parents, though some be theists and others be atheists, and others be all kinds of people who believe in all kinds of worldviews. Among the children the atheists are of two kinds, the angry ones and the non-angry ones. I suggest that we all atheists and theists and all other children of the mankind family work together to analyze the anger of angry atheists and since anger is an unhappy emotion that can be very destructive to the family, let us all find out after having analyzed the anger of angry atheists any remedies to dissipate the anger of angry atheists. I am not registering and am happy to just post here in this section where anyone not registered can post, because that will save me from being banned if and when the people in charge here want to ban me. But I guess they can always just the same physically with computer programming keep me from posting here, in which case I guess it would be because they do not believe in free and civil speech, at least not for me and not here in this forum where they are the owners/operators. Yes, I have been banned elsewhere for writing the way I write as shown for example in the present post from myself. Mdejess


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There can be no maker, no

There can be no maker, no beginning, therefore g-o-d can only be defined as what is,  ATHEIST, NO MASTER.

  Priests wear funny clothes .... FUCK any view that isn't "Atheistic". Thermodynamics is gospel this day .... All is one, NO MASTER .... da da, obviously, I AM GOD AS YOU.


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Paisley wrote:Then this

Paisley wrote:

Then this forum is making a false advertisement. The motto says:

Believe in God?  We can fix that.

 

So, what is your best evidence for what you believe in?  I have some pretty awesome evidence of my own...  Care to share? 

Today IS The Day!


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Merandas wrote:Paisley

Merandas wrote:
Paisley wrote:

Then this forum is making a false advertisement. The motto says:

Believe in God?  We can fix that.

 

So, what is your best evidence for what you believe in?  I have some pretty awesome evidence of my own...  Care to share? 

Faith is its own evidence.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Paisley wrote:Faith is its

Paisley wrote:

Faith is its own evidence.

Faith is belief without evidence.  If you believe your faith is valid then claim that, but do not claim it is based on evidence.  If you had evidence you wouldn't use the word faith.

"I am that I am." - Proof that the writers of the bible were beyond stoned.


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anniet wrote:Paisley

anniet wrote:
Paisley wrote:
Faith is its own evidence.

Faith is belief without evidence.  If you believe your faith is valid then claim that, but do not claim it is based on evidence.  If you had evidence you wouldn't use the word faith.

That's the atheist's definition of faith. Religious faith as believers actually experience it is a nonsensory perception.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Paisley wrote:I'm a believer

Paisley wrote:

I'm a believer in God. Can you please help fix it?

 

Gimme five minutes.


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Paisley wrote:anniet

Paisley wrote:

anniet wrote:
Paisley wrote:
Faith is its own evidence.

Faith is belief without evidence.  If you believe your faith is valid then claim that, but do not claim it is based on evidence.  If you had evidence you wouldn't use the word faith.

That's the atheist's definition of faith. Religious faith as believers actually experience it is a nonsensory perception.

And it is your belief that atheism is an actual organized clique, like religion. Really, this is the most organized atheism has ever gotten. To each his own, correct?

I don't have the time to cater to your religious beliefs. Its much less time consuming to simply mock them, and, on occasion, give a reasonable explanation as to why I do so. But that's if I'm in a good mood.


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Paisley wrote:anniet

Paisley wrote:

anniet wrote:
Paisley wrote:
Faith is its own evidence.

Faith is belief without evidence.  If you believe your faith is valid then claim that, but do not claim it is based on evidence.  If you had evidence you wouldn't use the word faith.

That's the atheist's definition of faith. Religious faith as believers actually experience it is a nonsensory perception.

"faith" is nothing more than a deliberate suspension of disbelief. 

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fgneibarger wrote:Paisley

fgneibarger wrote:
Paisley wrote:
I'm a believer in God. Can you please help fix it?
 

Gimme five minutes.

You have your five minutes. Go for it.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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fgneibarger wrote:Paisley

fgneibarger wrote:
Paisley wrote:
That's the atheist's definition of faith. Religious faith as believers actually experience it is a nonsensory perception.

And it is your belief that atheism is an actual organized clique, like religion. Really, this is the most organized atheism has ever gotten. To each his own, correct?

I fail to see the connection between my comment and your response. Who's talking about organized atheism?

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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djneibarger wrote:Paisley

djneibarger wrote:
Paisley wrote:
That's the atheist's definition of faith. Religious faith as believers actually experience it is a nonsensory perception.

"faith" is nothing more than a deliberate suspension of disbelief.

Faith is a spiritual faculty that can be cultivated. But it does appear that some are more endowed with it than others.

 

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Paisley wrote: That's the

Paisley wrote:

 

That's the atheist's definition of faith. Religious faith as believers actually experience it is a nonsensory perception.

Nonsensory perception, huh?  Seeing as our senses are what give us the inputs to perceive anything, your definition is nonsensical.  If you are going to claim that humans perceive something without using their known senses, you are going to have to provide proof for your assertion or be dismissed as a new age crackpot.  Even something like LSD uses a change in perspective and the known senses, not something beyond the senses - although it can feel like that at the time.  That's why you test such things scientifically, to see what's really going on.  Studies have been conducted on prayer, meditation, etc. and nobody has found any sort of perception that goes beyond the known senses to my knowledge.

As to the atheist definition - here is a dictionary definition:

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.6. A set of principles or beliefs.http://www.thefreedictionary.com/faith Nothing here even implies that the theist has any sort of evidence for their belief.  I see trust, loyalty, allegiance, but nothing remotely close to proof, or anything that warrants such emotions.  Faith is belief without evidence.

 

"I am that I am." - Proof that the writers of the bible were beyond stoned.


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Paisley wrote:Faith is a

anniet wrote:
As to the atheist definition - here is a dictionary definition:

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.6. A set of principles or beliefs.http://www.thefreedictionary.com/faith Nothing here even implies that the theist has any sort of evidence for their belief.  I see trust, loyalty, allegiance, but nothing remotely close to proof, or anything that warrants such emotions.  Faith is belief without evidence.
 There are six definitions! I suspect that you are focusing on definition "2." Okay, have it your way. Faith does not rest on material evidence. It rests on spiritual evidence.

 

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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anniet wrote:Paisley

anniet wrote:
Paisley wrote:
That's the atheist's definition of faith. Religious faith as believers actually experience it is a nonsensory perception.

Nonsensory perception, huh?  Seeing as our senses are what give us the inputs to perceive anything, your definition is nonsensical.  If you are going to claim that humans perceive something without using their known senses, you are going to have to provide proof for your assertion or be dismissed as a new age crackpot.

I used the term "nonsensory" to mean as not pertaining to the physical senses (i.e. tactile, olfactory, auditory, and visual). If you like, you can call it a nonphysical sense or an intuitive sense. As a theist, I believe that I am always being lured by the divine aim.

anniet wrote:
Even something like LSD uses a change in perspective and the known senses, not something beyond the senses - although it can feel like that at the time.  That's why you test such things scientifically, to see what's really going on.  Studies have been conducted on prayer, meditation, etc. and nobody has found any sort of perception that goes beyond the known senses to my knowledge.

Studies employing psychedelic drugs have lead to the development of the field of transpersonal psychology.  And there is scientific evidence for psi phenomena (e.g. extra-sensory perception...see the link below for a video presentation given by Dean Radin on the subject matter).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw_O9Qiwqew

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead