Proof God Exists

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ProzacDeathWish
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Wow, so now God himself is

Wow, so now God himself is vandalizing Christian church buildings.  Amazing.


 


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Wow,

It's pretty interesting.


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Lot2 wrote:It's pretty

Lot2 wrote:
It's pretty interesting.

To you, perhaps. To me, it's just one more indication that the more data there is, the greater the odds that you can find anything if you look long enough... and human beings excel at making coincidence out to be more than it is.

How many times has that preacher delivered that sermon? What're the odds he delivers a similar one whenever it's stormy? How many other preachers do the same kind of thing? Eventually, one of them was going to be at the right place, at the right time. If this event is supposed to be proof, then does it disprove the existence of God every time it doesn't work? I'm sitting in a rainstorm right now. I asked God for a sign. When I go outside, I will get wet. OMG!

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Nature's Way

It looks as though Mother Nature has come up with a great way to rid the planet of churches. Unfortunately, the idiots will look at this as a sign from gawd that they should rebuild, instead of a sign from Mother Nature that they should get rid of it!

 

Besides, it is commonly knowledge that lightning often strikes church steeples because of their height. As much as I would LOVE to say it is gawd's way of saying, "GET RID OF THIS CHURCH!"...sigh...it's just a matter of positive and negative charged particles of energy being attracted to each other and what happens (lightning) as a result.


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This is an example of post

This is an example of post hoc ergo propter hoc "after the fact therefore because of that fact."  It's a falacy of reaoning.  The sun rises after the rooster crows.  Does that mean that the rooster caused the sun to rise?  No.  No more does it mean that what a minister says in a church causes lightning to strike it. 

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

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Rocas511 wrote:This is an

Rocas511 wrote:

This is an example of post hoc ergo propter hoc "after the No more does it mean that what a minister says in a church causes lightning to strike it. 

No, but when you take into account the probability of the thing occuring...


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How many times do people ask

How many times do people ask for 'a sign' every day, versus the number of times a notable event closely follows? Unless you can gauge the former number, pointing to the latter one doesn't reinforce anything but a slim probability occurring once and being recorded.

 


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 I think Lot2 would hit it

 I think Lot2 would hit it off with Caposkia. To support his arguments, that guy has used references to an anonymous supposed professor from somewhere in the Midwest--to whom he was never able to dig up actual references--and supposed satellite data showing a California wildfire's avoidance of a praying Christian family's home--which he was also never able to produce.


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magilum wrote:How many times

magilum wrote:

How many times do people ask for 'a sign' every day, versus the number of times a notable event closely follows? Unless you can gauge the former number, pointing to the latter one doesn't reinforce anything but a slim probability occurring once and being recorded.

 

So, you're telling me that in order for this to be a miracle, no one else — or very few people — in human history would've had to have asked for signs from God? That's a tall order. Even though millions of religious people haves asked for signs over the course of existence, this incident is improbable enough.


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Lot2 wrote:magilum wrote:How

Lot2 wrote:
magilum wrote:

How many times do people ask for 'a sign' every day, versus the number of times a notable event closely follows? Unless you can gauge the former number, pointing to the latter one doesn't reinforce anything but a slim probability occurring once and being recorded. 

So, you're telling me that in order for this to be a miracle, no one else — or very few people — in human history would've had to have asked for signs from God? That's a tall order. Even though millions of religious people haves asked for signs over the course of existence, this incident is improbable enough.

Don't straw-man my comments. I'm saying an association between the two events isn't even demonstrated. If only one out of, for example, a million such requests correlates to a notable event, it's specious reasoning at best to point to a single example of correlation as evidence of causation. If someone says, 'to get rich, play the lotto,' you weigh the comments probabilistically, because you know that the game has poor odds of winning -- someone will win, but it probably won't be you. Arguing your point is like pointing to the one winner and saying, 'see? That's the way to get rich.' What you're saying is actually much worse than that, since we know in the lotto someone has to win because that's the way it's set up. We don't put a dollar up, wait for some notable event to interpret, and declare that one the win arbitrarily.


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Lot2 wrote:magilum wrote:How

Lot2 wrote:
magilum wrote:

How many times do people ask for 'a sign' every day, versus the number of times a notable event closely follows? Unless you can gauge the former number, pointing to the latter one doesn't reinforce anything but a slim probability occurring once and being recorded.

 

So, you're telling me that in order for this to be a miracle, no one else — or very few people — in human history would've had to have asked for signs from God? That's a tall order. Even though millions of religious people haves asked for signs over the course of existence, this incident is improbable enough.

No, he's telling you to stay on guard against confirmation bias - scoring the hits and ignoring the misses.

Christians, for example, love confirmation bias. They'll go on and on about a specific example of "answered prayer" but completely forget about the times prayers fail.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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"No testimony is sufficient

"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle unless the testimony be of such a kind that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact, which it endeavors to establish." - Hume

Well, that was easy.


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I maintain that lightning

I maintain that lightning striking a church as soon as the preacher asks for a message from God is too improbable to just be a coincidence. It's an insult to someone's intelligence to say otherwise. The story says the preacher even said God's voice sounds like thunder right before this happened!


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Lot2 wrote:magilum

Lot2 wrote:

...this incident is improbable enough.

I can assure you that per local building codes this church building had at least one lightning rod installed as do most tall structures.    How much "improbability" do you think was needed before architects realized that lightning frequently strikes taller buildings ?  Whether or not the church was occupied at the time is a meaningless issue.

{MOD EDIT: Fixed a minor quote issue. Make sure you close all your quote tags. Otherwise your comments end up within them, and it's confusing for readers.}

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Lot2 wrote:I maintain that

Lot2 wrote:
I maintain that lightning striking a church as soon as the preacher asks for a message from God is too improbable to just be a coincidence. It's an insult to someone's intelligence to say otherwise. The story says the preacher even said God's voice sounds like thunder right before this happened!

You 'maintain' it? Is that in lieu of a convincing argument?


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Lightening hit the building

Lightening hit the building the instant the preacher said "that's right, God! We hear you!" That's pretty impressive, if you ask me.

magilum wrote:

Lot2 wrote:
I maintain that lightning striking a church as soon as the preacher asks for a message from God is too improbable to just be a coincidence. It's an insult to someone's intelligence to say otherwise. The story says the preacher even said God's voice sounds like thunder right before this happened!

You 'maintain' it? Is that in lieu of a convincing argument?

The only way you guys are arguing this is by saying the probability of it randomly happening is within a realistic value. I'm saying, no, I'd feel like an idiot to just chalk it up to coincidence.


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Lot2 wrote:Lightening hit

Lot2 wrote:
Lightening hit the building the instant the preacher said "that's right, God! We hear you!" That's pretty impressive, if you ask me.

What the fuck, man. You're just repeating yourself. Either quantify a distinction between coincidence and miracle, or abandon this line of argument. If you repeat yourself again, I'm done with this thread, and will write you off.


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You speak of thunder ?

You speak of thunder ? ...just as the pastor asked for a sign ?   A more logical assumption was that it was actually Thor, the god of thunder.

Or maybe it was actually Satan, "the god of this world" resorting to his favorite pass time of making Christians look like stupid fools ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Or

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Or maybe it was actually Satan, "the god of this world" resorting to his favorite pass time of making Christians look like stupid fools ?

Heh.


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The damages to the church

The damages to the church added up to 20 Gs. Could this be god's way of saying "Leave me the fuck alone you people! It's my fucking day off!"

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Lot2 wrote:I maintain that

Lot2 wrote:
I maintain that lightning striking a church as soon as the preacher asks for a message from God is too improbable to just be a coincidence. It's an insult to someone's intelligence to say otherwise.

Why would a god try its level best to destroy a church when goaded? Assuming it is a sign, it's closer to "GET OUT OF THE CHURCH, I'M TOTALLY SETTING IT ON FIRE!"

It's an insult to anyone's intelligence to say that of all the times that there were thunderstorms on Sunday, and all the times when a preacher might say "behold the voice of GAHD" that this one time gives you "proof" of a deity. Given that it's such an angry-at-churches deity, I'm interested, but I don't think you'll find many takers for that as "proof" of anything.

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Quote:I maintain that

Quote:
I maintain that lightning striking a church as soon as the preacher asks for a message from God is too improbable to just be a coincidence.

This is an application of negative evidence, and can be used to 'prove' any number of things. It's crippled logic, and leads to foolish conclusions.

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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Lot2 wrote:I maintain that

Lot2 wrote:
I maintain that lightning striking a church as soon as the preacher asks for a message from God is too improbable to just be a coincidence. It's an insult to someone's intelligence to say otherwise.

It's an insult to my intelligence that you would even claim that. WTF,are we two? Do you really expect us to accept that as being proof for your personal god's existence. Get the fuck outta here with that bullshit.

Nero(in response to a Youth pastor) wrote:

You are afraid and should be thus.  We look to eradicate your god from everything but history books.  We bring rationality and clear thought to those who choose lives of ignorance.  We are the blazing, incandescent brand that will leave an "A" so livid, so scarlet on your mind that you will not go an hour without reflecting on reality.


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Well, it's enough for me to

Well, it's enough for me to see it as a message; not necessarily from the christian god, but from a higher power. I believe in higher powers. I'm an agnostic.


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Lot2 wrote:Well, it's enough

Lot2 wrote:
Well, it's enough for me to see it as a message; not necessarily from the christian god, but from a higher power. I believe in higher powers. I'm an agnostic.

Well, that's a lie.  You're clearly not an agnostic as you claim.  The closest you could possibly be going by these posts is either an agnostic deist or an agnostic theist, but certainly not a straight agnostic.  I'm very doubtful of the usage of the word agnostic at all when it comes to you though, you appear to me to be more of a theist with little to no belief that you could be wrong.

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Lot2 wrote:Well, it's enough

Lot2 wrote:
Well, it's enough for me to see it as a message

What "message" boiled forth from your mind because of this incident?

Quote:
not necessarily from the christian god, but from a higher power. I believe in higher powers.

What "higher power"?

 

The Empire State Building gets struck by lightning around 100 times a year. What "message" do you derive from this?

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Church steeples are going to

Church steeples are going to frequently attract lightning, so the probability of it being hit at some time is relatively high, its just a question of timing. Allowing for all the times which a sermon calling for a sign has been been presented somewhere during a storm further reduces the improbability. Then you have to wonder about the vast number of times signs have been called for with no response.

Finally when we see what a clumsy, destructive sign it was further makes it dubious to assign it to God, who could have made a far more convincing and non-destructive manifestations if He really wanted to.

It would, in fact be remarkable if surprising coincidences never occurred...

 

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Lot2 wrote:Well, it's enough

Lot2 wrote:
Well, it's enough for me to see it as a message; not necessarily from the christian god, but from a higher power. I believe in higher powers. I'm an agnostic.

So you don't believe you have, and possibly don't believe you could have, knowledge of a deity, except that you're eager to attribute a phenomena to its direct intervention. I see.

*Quietly starts reaching for the stupid hat*


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More stupid from the

More stupid from the story.

Quote:
Meanwhile, several heavy clay tiles had fallen from the steeple and crushed a car in the parking lot, Mrs. Cheney said. The wrecked car was parked where Mr. Hardman had kept his family’s motor home until earlier that day, when he moved it because of problems with a nearby bees nest.


"That was the first miracle, that the tiles didn’t crush the Hardmans' camper," Mrs. Cheney said.

What about the wrecked car?


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Ronnie Cheney: He (the


Ronnie Cheney: He (the evangelist) just kept asking God what else he needed to say...

"lightning hit the church's steeple...  blew out the church's sound system."

 

 

And God said: Shut the Fcuk Up.

 

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Are you feeling okay Eloise

Are you feeling okay Eloise ?  The folksy, irreverent style of your most recent responses has somewhat baffled me.....I'm accustomed to having you illustrate your points with bland, scientific discourse. 

Not complaing mind you, just making a friendly observation 

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Higher Power

Lot2 wrote:
Well, it's enough for me to see it as a message; not necessarily from the christian god, but from a higher power. I believe in higher powers. I'm an agnostic.

I too believe in higher power. It's called "lightening." It strikes about 8 million times a day. There are over 300,000 insurance claims due to lightening every year in the United States. It is driven by 30 million volts, and between 10,000 and 200,000 amps, giving of about 300 billion to 6 trillion watts. Every. Single. Strike. 8 million times a day. Now, that's power. And it's higher. Hahahahahaha. (I crack myself up.)

In smaller towns, the church is the tallest building in the area, and so will be significantly more likely to receive a lightening strike than any other building in the town. On a Sunday, with a storm rolling outside, a preacher is much more likely to mention thunder as the Voice of God. (Why does this remind me of the Mouth of Sauron from the Return of the King movie?)

So, no, it wasn't coincidence. The storm prompted the preacher-character to make some cave-man reference to God and thunder. This probably happens quite frequently, as preachers generally have a sense of the dramatic, and lightening storms are extremely dramatic. The storm also provided the conditions necessary for a lightening strike.

Although it was a coincidence, it's not a staggeringly improbable one. As others have pointed out, it was probably almost inevitable, given just a few years.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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Improbable things happen all

Improbable things happen all the time.  Tell me, if the very same thing had happened to a Mosk, or a Hindu temple, or a Wiccan coven building would you consider it to be "proof" of the existence of their gods? 

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

-James Madison-


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If this had happened to a

If this had happened to a Mosk, a hindu temple or a Wiccan coven would you consider it to be "proof" of the existance of those gods?  I don't think you would.  You interpret it to be proof based on your pre-existing belief.

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

-James Madison-


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God's miracles

In the case of lightning, there's hard to distinguish, if it is a God's miracle, or simply a natural thing.
However, there are miracles, which can't be explained by common causes.
One of my favorite are light patterns on buildings. They look like that (Berlin, 2001)

and you see, they are like X-shaped crosses in circles, or similar. This photo  of such a light crosses was taken last year in a town about 4 kilometers from my home. Several months later, the same light patterns appeared in another near town, but this time bigger and much more shining. Unfortunately, nobody of people going along had  a camera at the moment, but there were many witnesses, wondering what the hell it is on the wall of a supermarket.
These specific light patterns appears all around the world (USA, Japan, Germany, for example) for years, and there is no scientific explanation for them. People, who had seen them, says, that there was no light source around (the wall was in shade, or sun was clouded) and no reflexive surface anywhere in sight. They sometimes stays on place for weeks, sometimes only for minutes, before they disappear. This is, in my opinion, more mysterious than a lightning.
There is no reason why anyone would project such effects on walls for years, everywhere in the world, there's no additional message besides of that.
What do you guys think?

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What God?

This is proof of the existance of what god? Thor? Don't we all know in this day and age that lightning is not sent by the gods? Naw, the only thing this proves is that the church needs to install a better lightning rod.

 

 

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2001? A light show in 2001

2001? A light show in 2001 is supposed to be a miracle just because the witnesses didn't see the projector? Hell, those things don't look like crosses, they look like the damn X-Files logo.

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Luminon wrote:In the case of

Luminon wrote:

In the case of lightning, there's hard to distinguish, if it is a God's miracle, or simply a natural thing. 
However, there are miracles, which can't be explained by common causes.
One of my favorite are light patterns on buildings. They look like that (Berlin, 2001)

and you see, they are like X-shaped crosses in circles, or similar. This photo  of such a light crosses was taken last year in a town about 4 kilometers from my home. Several months later, the same light patterns appeared in another near town, but this time bigger and much more shining. Unfortunately, nobody of people going along had  a camera at the moment, but there were many witnesses, wondering what the hell it is on the wall of a supermarket.
These specific light patterns appears all around the world (USA, Japan, Germany, for example) for years, and there is no scientific explanation for them. People, who had seen them, says, that there was no light source around (the wall was in shade, or sun was clouded) and no reflexive surface anywhere in sight. They sometimes stays on place for weeks, sometimes only for minutes, before they disappear. This is, in my opinion, more mysterious than a lightning. 
There is no reason why anyone would project such effects on walls for years, everywhere in the world, there's no additional message besides of that. 
What do you guys think?

It just looks like light glinting off of some faceted reflective object, like a disco ball effect. Was the cloud cover solid or sporadic? were the witnesses being truthful, or taking the piss? were they rational people, or desperate like the pilgrims that flock to sappy trees here in California? I don't know, but since I don't have those answers, I'll move forward to the implications.

What makes this a miracle, rather than something weird and useless? Somewhere there's a man dying in the street like a dog, and they'll find him in the morning, staring up with vacant eyes. There's a little girl slowly crawling through a village street, dying of starvation. There are any number of people, absolutely desperate for time and space to bend with some leniency to a plight on which their very lives depend. If there's a deity putting on light shows, or making plastic bags dance, I don't want to know about it.


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magilum wrote:It just looks

magilum wrote:


It just looks like light glinting off of some faceted reflective object, like a disco ball effect. Was the cloud cover solid or sporadic? were the witnesses being truthful, or taking the piss? were they rational people, or desperate like the pilgrims that flock to sappy trees here in California? I don't know, but since I don't have those answers, I'll move forward to the implications.

Yes, it looks quite commonly, unless you realize there's no light source anywhere around. Witnesses of these about four light pattern appearances in this area confirmed it. (they're longtime family friends and co-workers, I can trust them and photographs they took, specially when other people reports identic sights ) It happens for many years already in the world, and there was found no organization of people who would secretly project meaningless light patterns on walls. I think, whoever created it, it's meant to surprise people who saw it, to put them in awe for a moment. Nothing more, nothing less. You expected any religional message with it? C'mon, religion is a nonsense, even God, if he's really so smart, must know it. You can't expect every miracle to be religional. There are some, for religional people (like a hinduistic statues drinking hectolitres of milk), but this one is abstract, without any religional undertone, so careful atheists can have their fair share of miracles too.

magilum wrote:
What makes this a miracle, rather than something weird and useless? Somewhere there's a man dying in the street like a dog, and they'll find him in the morning, staring up with vacant eyes. There's a little girl slowly crawling through a village street, dying of starvation. There are any number of people, absolutely desperate for time and space to bend with some leniency to a plight on which their very lives depend. If there's a deity putting on light shows, or making plastic bags dance, I don't want to know about it.
It shows that there's more to reality than meets the eye. There's more in the world than our media shows to us. We are flooded by world chaos in media, to make us blind and deaf even to miracles. It's called a consumer society. You believe, what you see in TV, like there would be any guarantee of truth. The only guarantee behind a media truth is, that it's financially or politically profitable.
Of course, I know what's happening in the world. Just think - would you willingly let anyone starve to death? Nobody really would, and yet, we make it happen, because we work and pay, we vote politicians, we buy, consume, watch TV and believe it, we send our children to wars, and nothing more. This is a crime of the most uncivilized society in the world - ours.
I think, the miracles which started appearing in about last 30 years, are a sign of greater things' existence, than are our little personal worlds, oscillating between work and TV.
You consider it weird and useless? That's still good, because if it would be anything bigger, people could start being afraid, like they're already scared of terrorism, religional fanatics, people of a different complexion color, and so on.

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Luminon wrote:In the case of

Luminon wrote:

In the case of lightning, there's hard to distinguish, if it is a God's miracle, or simply a natural thing.

How about we go with the logical explination that agrees with everything we know about the natural phenomenon we know about lightning.  How long has man known that lightning isn't created by thor or some other god?  Surely you guys can't be that regressed and willfully ignorant?  Have you learnt anything since the 2nd grade?

Luminon wrote:

However, there are miracles, which can't be explained by common causes.

No there's not.  Once again the willfull ignorance.  There are phenomena, events, things which cannot be explained by common or natural causes.  A lack of explination does not a miracle make.


Luminon wrote:
One of my favorite are light patterns on buildings. They look like that (Berlin, 2001)

and you see, they are like X-shaped crosses in circles, or similar. This photo  of such a light crosses was taken last year in a town about 4 kilometers from my home. Several months later, the same light patterns appeared in another near town, but this time bigger and much more shining. Unfortunately, nobody of people going along had  a camera at the moment, but there were many witnesses, wondering what the hell it is on the wall of a supermarket.
These specific light patterns appears all around the world (USA, Japan, Germany, for example) for years, and there is no scientific explanation for them. People, who had seen them, says, that there was no light source around (the wall was in shade, or sun was clouded) and no reflexive surface anywhere in sight. They sometimes stays on place for weeks, sometimes only for minutes, before they disappear. This is, in my opinion, more mysterious than a lightning.
There is no reason why anyone would project such effects on walls for years, everywhere in the world, there's no additional message besides of that.
What do you guys think?

I think you're either a complete and utter moron or you're just playing us for fools.

No light source huh?  What about that big shiny thing known as "the sun"?  It's clearly daytime in that picture.  There may be no direct source for the lights such as big fucking globes, but have you ever heard of things such as reflection and refraction?  If you look at the second storey of that building you can see rectangular bits of light that look surprisingly similar in size and shape to *pause for effect* WINDOWS!  Surely you've looked at a building and had the light reflected from its windows?  Not all light goes through. 

What happens when windows reflect light?  A shiny area appears in the place where light is being reflected to.  What happens when there's some wind, the air pressure behind the windows is different to in front of them, or when they've been in place for a while?  The glass bows.  What does bowed glass do?  It causes the light to be refracted oddly in ways that would cause the EXACT circles and X's that you see there. 

Seriously, if you can't see that affect clear as day (no pun intended) in that picture then you are either blind, majorly dilluded or just a complete and utter fucking moron.  You may think that this level of abuse is uncalled for, but I personally feel it is when confronted with such repugnantly high levels of idiocy.

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magilum
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Luminon wrote: magilum

Luminon wrote:

magilum wrote:

 

It just looks like light glinting off of some faceted reflective object, like a disco ball effect. Was the cloud cover solid or sporadic? were the witnesses being truthful, or taking the piss? were they rational people, or desperate like the pilgrims that flock to sappy trees here in California? I don't know, but since I don't have those answers, I'll move forward to the implications.

 

Yes, it looks quite commonly, unless you realize there's no light source anywhere around.

 

I realize no such thing -- I wasn't there. The significance you ascribe to it relies on not knowing what it is, making any conclusion beyond it being unknown an argument from ignorance.

Luminon wrote:

Witnesses of these about four light pattern appearances in this area confirmed it. (they're longtime family friends and co-workers, I can trust them and photographs they took, specially when other people reports identic sights ) It happens for many years already in the world, and there was found no organization of people who would secretly project meaningless light patterns on walls.

 

As opposed to what, the staggering evidence for a magical being that does the same?

Luminon wrote:

I think, whoever created it, it's meant to surprise people who saw it, to put them in awe for a moment. Nothing more, nothing less. You expected any religional message with it? C'mon, religion is a nonsense, even God, if he's really so smart, must know it. You can't expect every miracle to be religional. There are some, for religional people (like a hinduistic statues drinking hectolitres of milk), but this one is abstract, without any religional undertone, so careful atheists can have their fair share of miracles too.

 

Let's not load the word atheist with more meaning than it has. Atheism is just a description for an incidental position, not a defining attribute one has to live up to. An atheist could be completely irrational and have totally unjustified reasons for their position. They could not believe in a god because they think the supernatural space is completely taken up by wood sprites.

Luminon wrote:

magilum wrote:

What makes this a miracle, rather than something weird and useless? Somewhere there's a man dying in the street like a dog, and they'll find him in the morning, staring up with vacant eyes. There's a little girl slowly crawling through a village street, dying of starvation. There are any number of people, absolutely desperate for time and space to bend with some leniency to a plight on which their very lives depend. If there's a deity putting on light shows, or making plastic bags dance, I don't want to know about it.

 

It shows that there's more to reality than meets the eye.

 

We only see a fraction of the electromagnetic spectrum, so this fact can be specifically demonstrated without resorting to cheap theatrics.

Luminon wrote:

There's more in the world than our media shows to us. We are flooded by world chaos in media, to make us blind and deaf even to miracles.

 

You're begging the question.

Luminon wrote:

It's called a consumer society. You believe, what you see in TV, like there would be any guarantee of truth. The only guarantee behind a media truth is, that it's financially or politically profitable.

 

Now you're poisoning the well.

Luminon wrote:

Of course, I know what's happening in the world. Just think - would you willingly let anyone starve to death? Nobody really would, and yet, we make it happen, because we work and pay, we vote politicians, we buy, consume, watch TV and believe it, we send our children to wars, and nothing more.

 

We let it happen, but I think there are more interesting reasons why we do. The human mind, for instance, is incapable of really applying empathy to larger scales. Think of a thousand men, women and children starving to death... then of one person's child dying of cancer. In most people, the latter is less abstract and more potent. Another reason is logistics. We don't have an economic system designed to alleviate suffering.

Luminon wrote:

This is a crime of the most uncivilized society in the world - ours.

I think, the miracles which started appearing in about last 30 years, are a sign of greater things' existence, than are our little personal worlds, oscillating between work and TV.

 

Substantiate it.

Luminon wrote:

You consider it weird and useless? That's still good, because if it would be anything bigger, people could start being afraid, like they're already scared of terrorism, religional fanatics, people of a different complexion color, and so on.

 

I find your comments vulgar.

 


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..

thingy wrote:

I think you're either a complete and utter moron or you're just playing us for fools.

No light source huh?  What about that big shiny thing known as "the sun"?  It's clearly daytime in that picture.  There may be no direct source for the lights such as big fucking globes, but have you ever heard of things such as reflection and refraction?  If you look at the second storey of that building you can see rectangular bits of light that look surprisingly similar in size and shape to *pause for effect* WINDOWS!  Surely you've looked at a building and had the light reflected from its windows?  Not all light goes through. 

What happens when windows reflect light?  A shiny area appears in the place where light is being reflected to.  What happens when there's some wind, the air pressure behind the windows is different to in front of them, or when they've been in place for a while?  The glass bows.  What does bowed glass do?  It causes the light to be refracted oddly in ways that would cause the EXACT circles and X's that you see there. 

Seriously, if you can't see that affect clear as day (no pun intended) in that picture then you are either blind, majorly dilluded or just a complete and utter fucking moron.  You may think that this level of abuse is uncalled for, but I personally feel it is when confronted with such repugnantly high levels of idiocy.


I'm not so gigantic moron as you've assumed, after you have skipped most of my descriptions in my text. Of course, that first thing people do, when they see these light patterns on a wall, is comparing them with a position and intensity of sun, searching for possible reflective surfaces around, windows, and so on. But there is no way how it would be a reflection of sun light, because the Earth rotation. Sun reflections moves as the day period changes, but these light patterns stays on the same place, all the day, sometimes for weeks, no matter if the sun is clouded. Or they can unpredictably disappear in one moment, while sun is still shining and windows around are still on their places. This photo in link above is just a case where the pattern disappeared just after the moment of being photographed.
They also appear in complete shade, when the sun is on the opposite side of a building or fence.
Despite of that, at night they probably fade down, so far I saw no night photographs.
These are reasons for me to think that it is not an usual reflection of light.
 


Magilum:
Well, you think quite differently than I'm used to. If you think I'm vulgar, then sorry for stomping on your claxus, but this is what we risk when we are online.

Quote:
As opposed to what, the staggering evidence for a magical being that does the same?

What is magic? Let's say, is a stick casting lightning a fictive magic wand of cast lightning, or a conductive copper resonator, grounding and directing the atmospheric static charge according to the user's consciously controlled bioelectric field? I believe the technology can go even beyond technical and mechanical solutions, beyond recognizable technology itself. There are different principles, on which a technology can be built, than we currently use.  Some people call their effects miracles, others coincidences. As it looks like, there is a lot of coincidences in last years. I think the coincidences are supposed to be rare.

Quote:
We let it happen, but I think there are more interesting reasons why we do. The human mind, for instance, is incapable of really applying empathy to larger scales. Think of a thousand men, women and children starving to death... then of one person's child dying of cancer. In most people, the latter is less abstract and more potent. Another reason is logistics. We don't have an economic system designed to alleviate suffering.

This limitation of human mind is unfortunate, specially when the idea society of consumers is parasiting on it. You're right about our economic system, we don't have an economic system designed to alleviate suffering, this system is designed to keep them suffering as long as possible. It's nothing personal in it, it's just a business. I consider it as unethical. Do you know that all famine problems on the world are caused only by logistics? There's overproduction of food, more than enough for everyone, just most of it already belongs to the rich third of the world (no matter if the poor countries produces it) and there's no way how to move it back where it's vitally needed.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Luminon wrote:Do you know

Luminon wrote:

Do you know that all famine problems on the world are caused only by logistics? There's overproduction of food, more than enough for everyone, just most of it already belongs to the rich third of the world (no matter if the poor countries produces it) and there's no way how to move it back where it's vitally needed.

No, there's no will to move it back where it's vitally needed. And when there is, local and regional corruption often complicates the problem. The problem lies not with logistics, but with human avarice.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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Luminon wrote:thingy wrote:I

Luminon wrote:

thingy wrote:

I think you're either a complete and utter moron or you're just playing us for fools.

No light source huh?  What about that big shiny thing known as "the sun"?  It's clearly daytime in that picture.  There may be no direct source for the lights such as big fucking globes, but have you ever heard of things such as reflection and refraction?  If you look at the second storey of that building you can see rectangular bits of light that look surprisingly similar in size and shape to *pause for effect* WINDOWS!  Surely you've looked at a building and had the light reflected from its windows?  Not all light goes through. 

What happens when windows reflect light?  A shiny area appears in the place where light is being reflected to.  What happens when there's some wind, the air pressure behind the windows is different to in front of them, or when they've been in place for a while?  The glass bows.  What does bowed glass do?  It causes the light to be refracted oddly in ways that would cause the EXACT circles and X's that you see there. 

Seriously, if you can't see that affect clear as day (no pun intended) in that picture then you are either blind, majorly dilluded or just a complete and utter fucking moron.  You may think that this level of abuse is uncalled for, but I personally feel it is when confronted with such repugnantly high levels of idiocy.


I'm not so gigantic moron as you've assumed, after you have skipped most of my descriptions in my text. Of course, that first thing people do, when they see these light patterns on a wall, is comparing them with a position and intensity of sun, searching for possible reflective surfaces around, windows, and so on. But there is no way how it would be a reflection of sun light, because the Earth rotation. Sun reflections moves as the day period changes, but these light patterns stays on the same place, all the day, sometimes for weeks, no matter if the sun is clouded. Or they can unpredictably disappear in one moment, while sun is still shining and windows around are still on their places. This photo in link above is just a case where the pattern disappeared just after the moment of being photographed.
They also appear in complete shade, when the sun is on the opposite side of a building or fence.
Despite of that, at night they probably fade down, so far I saw no night photographs.
These are reasons for me to think that it is not an usual reflection of light.

You haven't substantiated that premise. There are also claims that NASA had to account for a missing day in their orbital calculations because of Yahweh stopping the sun for Elijah, or whatever the fuck it was supposed to be. The point is that photo and a nickel will get you half a national long distance minute.

Luminon wrote:
 
Magilum:
Well, you think quite differently than I'm used to. If you think I'm vulgar, then sorry for stomping on your claxus, but this is what we risk when we are online.

Yawn.

Luminon wrote:

Quote:
As opposed to what, the staggering evidence for a magical being that does the same?

What is magic? Let's say, is a stick casting lightning a fictive magic wand of cast lightning, or a conductive copper resonator, grounding and directing the atmospheric static charge according to the user's consciously controlled bioelectric field? I believe the technology can go even beyond technical and mechanical solutions, beyond recognizable technology itself.

That statement is self-contradictory, and its conclusion is at its best an appeal to ignorance.

Luminon wrote:
There are different principles, on which a technology can be built, than we currently use.  Some people call their effects miracles, others coincidences. As it looks like, there is a lot of coincidences in last years. I think the coincidences are supposed to be rare.

Yikes, you're begging the question again.

Luminon wrote:


Quote:
We let it happen, but I think there are more interesting reasons why we do. The human mind, for instance, is incapable of really applying empathy to larger scales. Think of a thousand men, women and children starving to death... then of one person's child dying of cancer. In most people, the latter is less abstract and more potent. Another reason is logistics. We don't have an economic system designed to alleviate suffering.

This limitation of human mind is unfortunate, specially when the idea society of consumers is parasiting on it.

Tiresome.

Luminon wrote:
You're right about our economic system, we don't have an economic system designed to alleviate suffering, this system is designed to keep them suffering as long as possible.

I didn't mean to imply that the current system is designed at all. These unfortunate circumstances may be addressed deliberately, but it doesn't mean they came about that way. You may as well complain that the body is designed to force people to manufacture Twinkies because the product eventually came about.

Luminon wrote:
It's nothing personal in it, it's just a business. I consider it as unethical. Do you know that all famine problems on the world are caused only by logistics? There's overproduction of food, more than enough for everyone, just most of it already belongs to the rich third of the world (no matter if the poor countries produces it) and there's no way how to move it back where it's vitally needed.


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Oh, and swap "vulgar" for

Oh, and swap "vulgar" for "asinine."

 


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Quote:You haven't

Quote:
You haven't substantiated that premise. There are also claims that NASA had to account for a missing day in their orbital calculations because of Yahweh stopping the sun for Elijah, or whatever the fuck it was supposed to be. The point is that photo and a nickel will get you half a national long distance minute.

There's no way how to substantiate the premise through the internet. I can't reach through the computer screen, grab you, take you to a street where's this light pattern currenly on a wall and show it to you. I just describe this effect, so if anyone who reads this, would manage to notice it somewhere and pay attention to it. It can appear anywhere in inhabitated place, usually on buildings' walls or fences. Then a witness will know what to expect and what to check on this light pattern, for example, if it really stays on place, when the sun and sun light reflections moves by time, or if it is bright, while sunlight is much weaker. This is what people should do with claims they don't see proven, store them for later till they find a proof what supports them or disproves. You may think that I'm begging the question, but I just inform you about things which are proven for me and which you can later verify for yourself. It may take a time, but maybe not so much.
I don't need to prove anything for myself anymore, I am convinced enough, I know a girl who took this smaller photo and we have put an ad. to a local newspaper for those, who witnessed the second light pattern effect in the second town. (about 5 people called back) Other numerous similar sightings and photos from the world can be found in a specialised section of a certain magazine.

Quote:
I didn't mean to imply that the current system is designed at all. These unfortunate circumstances may be addressed deliberately, but it doesn't mean they came about that way. You may as well complain that the body is designed to force people to manufacture Twinkies because the product eventually came about.
I did. You could have a look at the film Zeitgeist. It's a good film for atheists, firstly it deeply digs through religious myths, but in about a second half it comes to the modern financial system, who, when, how and why created it. It later goes on with different topic, but all its parts are very intriguing.

 

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Luminon wrote:There's no way

Luminon wrote:

There's no way how to substantiate the premise through the internet. I can't reach through the computer screen, grab you, take you to a street where's this light pattern currenly on a wall and show it to you.

Actually, you could take pictures from different angles, so that we could find the light source AND the reflector(s). Because that's how light patterns get projected on walls.

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Luminon wrote:I'm not so

Luminon wrote:
I'm not so gigantic moron as you've assumed, after you have skipped most of my descriptions in my text.

I did no such thing.  Notice how there's a 2-3 day gap between your post and my reply?  The reason for that is because if a post is filled with anger it's best to cancel the comment and come back later with a clear head.  I attempted to do this numerous times.  I read your descriptions many times, and that was the most polite reply I could come up with.  Frankly I find your willing ignorance to be very insulting.

Luminon wrote:
Of course, that first thing people do, when they see these light patterns on a wall, is comparing them with a position and intensity of sun, searching for possible reflective surfaces around, windows, and so on. But there is no way how it would be a reflection of sun light, because the Earth rotation. Sun reflections moves as the day period changes, but these light patterns stays on the same place, all the day, sometimes for weeks, no matter if the sun is clouded. Or they can unpredictably disappear in one moment, while sun is still shining and windows around are still on their places. This photo in link above is just a case where the pattern disappeared just after the moment of being photographed.

I call bullshit.  You made no mention of it staying there during night before or when the sun was behind the clouds.  If you're making such big claims you're going to have to back them up with more evidence that the claims are valid.  If the situation was even remotely similar to this, these windows wouldn't be as little known as they are.  All the examples you have given are in different countries to me so you're going to have to provide me with some more sources of evidence.  Websites, legitimate news sites that cover this etc.  Don't just tell me to do a google search.  You are the one making the claim, it is your responsibility to provide the evidence. 

Luminon wrote:
They also appear in complete shade, when the sun is on the opposite side of a building or fence.

Your point being?  Once again I point you to the word "reflection".  This is what allows the light from the sun to reach things it is not in direct line of sight of due to things like, oh, say, buildings and fences.  The light bounces off one object and on to the object you're seeing it on.  This light often gets bent especially if it's coming off a building's windows due to difference in air pressure inside and outside the building causing a concave mirror effect. 

Luminon wrote:
Despite of that, at night they probably fade down, so far I saw no night photographs.

Fancy that.

Luminon wrote:
These are reasons for me to think that it is not an usual reflection of light.

Willing ignorance, as I said. 

There is nothing unusual about it.  I have seen concave reflections (though not similar patterns) of light on buildings hundreds of times as well as reflections where I couldn't figure out the source until I actually put myself up against the wall (where physically possible) and it shone in my eyes.  You've seen them too, I garantee it.  Now please for the sake of my sanity and the sanity of everyone around you, please stop being so stupid on purpose!  It's killing us.

 

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thingy wrote:You made no

thingy wrote:
You made no mention of it staying there during night before or when the sun was behind the clouds.

I have reviewed your original post and now I would like to retract this statement, to a degree.  It took some re-reading, but I think I found it.

Luminon wrote:
These specific light patterns appears all around the world (USA, Japan, Germany, for example) for years

I read this statement to mean their appearance has been a regular ocurrance for years.  Maybe you were implying the pattern appeared and didn't dissapear for years?  Maybe that's how the story was told to you and that's how you interperated it.  Maybe the person actually meant it the way I interperated it.  That's the most logical explination I can come up with.  Evidence of my claim of your willing ignorance.  As far as I can tell you simply chose to interperet that in an illogical and ignorant way.

Luminon wrote:
People, who had seen them, says, that there was no light source around (the wall was in shade, or sun was clouded) and no reflexive surface anywhere in sight.

People are stupid.  The building can be between the person and the sun, puts the person in the shade so they think no light source rather than the logical reflection.  From their perspective the sun is behind clouds, but the building the light is reflecting off may not be.

Luminon wrote:
They sometimes stays on place for weeks, sometimes only for minutes, before they disappear.

I read this as "sometimes it happens regularly for a number of weeks, sometimes it's just a one-off", not that "it lasts for weeks, day and night, rain hail or shine".  Maybe that's how the story was told to you and that's how you interperated it.  Maybe the person actually meant it the way I interperated it.  That's the most logical explination I can come up with.  Again, evidence of my claim of your willing ignorance.  As far as I can tell you simply chose to interperet that in an illogical and ignorant way.

 

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