evolution and consciousness

IknowTruth
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evolution and consciousness

we all know that humans including animals have a conscousness. when someone is feeling down we feel sorry for them,even with dogs when their owner is hurt they would cry. if these emotions wasnt put in by god,then what put them there? it sure wasnt evolution because that means evolution would literally have a mind of its own. evolution is mostly known as "surival of the fittest" it would not add the ability where animals feel sorrow because as i know evolution makes species able to surive in any habitat. so that means they must be agressive and have no emotions. why would evolution put the ability where animals feel sad for their owner or even cry period? why do we cry when we see people are hurt or loose a loved one? simple answer god. god put emotions in everyone,if you can explain other wise share you thoughts thanks Smiling


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IknowTruth wrote:we all know

IknowTruth wrote:

we all know that humans including animals have a conscousness. when someone is feeling down we feel sorry for them,even with dogs when their owner is hurt they would cry. if these emotions wasnt put in by god,then what put them there? it sure wasnt evolution because that means evolution would literally have a mind of its own. evolution is mostly known as "surival of the fittest" it would not add the ability where animals feel sorrow because as i know evolution makes species able to surive in any habitat. so that means they must be agressive and have no emotions. why would evolution put the ability where animals feel sad for their owner or even cry period? why do we cry when we see people are hurt or loose a loved one? simple answer god. god put emotions in everyone,if you can explain other wise share you thoughts thanks Smiling

First off, I think you're confusing "consciousness" with "conscience."  That is being a little nit-picky, though.

Second, you're displaying a rather large lack of knowledge about evolution and about social behavior in general.   Feeling empathy for other individuals of your species can certainly be helpful for survival.  Many animals form communities, it's not limited to humans, and the interactions between members of the community increase the overall survival rate of the species.

Evolution doesn't "make a species able to survive in any habitat."  Evolution is the process that forces species to be able to survive in the habitat they are in.  Further, I don't know why you think survival requires being aggressive and having no emotions.  That claim is totally unsupported.  


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Quote:if these emotions

Quote:
if these emotions wasnt put in by god,then what put them there? it sure wasnt evolution because that means evolution would literally have a mind of its own. evolution is mostly known as "surival of the fittest"

Let's see if you're qualified to make such sweeping statements about evolution.  Please explain to me in a couple of concise paragraphs exactly what the difference is between crossover and recombination.  When you've done that, please explain to me how Muller's Ratchet relates to the problem of accumulated point mutations.  When you've done that, please explain briefly how parasitism relates to sexual reproduction.

Once you've demonstrated an understanding of these very, very basic concepts, we can talk about evolution.

Quote:
it would not add the ability where animals feel sorrow because as i know evolution makes species able to surive in any habitat.

Is that a fact?  What source do you have for this belief?  Could you please give me the name of the evolutionary biologist who proposed this theory?

Quote:
so that means they must be agressive and have no emotions.

No kidding?  If you know this to be true, then surely you can refute the very simple game theory exercise known as the Prisoner's Dilemma.  Prove to me that you can explain and then refute this argument, and then we can talk intelligently.

Quote:
why would evolution put the ability where animals feel sad for their owner or even cry period?

Again, you've obviously found away around the evolutionary advantage of reciprocal altruism and proved modern game theory wrong.  Explain how you've done this, please.

Quote:
why do we cry when we see people are hurt or loose a loved one? simple answer god. god put emotions in everyone,if you can explain other wise share you thoughts thanks Smiling

You are woefully and inexcusably ignorant.  To think that you have the ability to read and write and yet have not even the slightest understanding of the most important theory in all of the life sciences.

The truth is, I could answer all of your questions, but it would take quite a few pages of writing, and many have addressed these questions many times before.  For instance, you could read the following series of lectures by Deludedgod, who happens to be a scientist in this very field...

 

If you wanted, you could read this book:

 

Climbing Mount Improbable  

Climbing Mount Improbable by Richard Dawkins (Paperback - April 6, 2006)

Or this one:

 

 30th Anniversary Edition--with a new Introduction by the Author  

The Selfish Gene: 30th Anniversary Edition--with a new Introduction by the Author

Or this one:

 Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature  

The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature by Matt Ridley (Paperback - April 29, 2003)

Or this one:

 Evolution and the Meanings of Life  

Darwin's Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meanings of Life by Daniel C. Dennett (Paperback - Jun 12, 1996)

Or this one:

 How Sexual Choice Shaped the Evolution of Human Nature  

The Mating Mind: How Sexual Choice Shaped the Evolution of Human Nature by Geoffrey Miller (Paperback - April 17, 2001)

Or this one:

Evolution  

Evolution by Nicholas H. Barton, Derek E. G. Briggs, Jonathan A. Eisen, and David B. Goldstein (Hardcover - Jun 30, 2007)

 

Once you've read even a couple of these books, you can make a decision about what evolution can or cannot do.  Until then, you and I can never talk about this, because I know what I'm talking about and you don't know jack shit.

Have a nice day.

 

 

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Quote: it would not add the

Quote:

it would not add the ability where animals feel sorrow because as i know evolution makes species able to surive in any habitat.

 

"Is that a fact?  What source do you have for this belief?  Could you please give me the name of the evolutionary biologist who proposed this theory?"

 

are there any biologist that says we have the ability to feel sad because of evolution?i think not. in order for evolution to do this as i said before it literally must have a mind of its own.seriously what is the point of evolution making a dog feel sorry for its owner when he/she is hurt? we do we feel sorry for others? evolution has no purpose to make us feel sad for others. if you have proof that we have emotions becuase of evolution share it.

 

"Let's see if you're qualified to make such sweeping statements about evolution.  Please explain to me in a couple of concise paragraphs exactly what the difference is between crossover and recombination.  When you've done that, please explain to me how Muller's Ratchet relates to the problem of accumulated point mutations.  When you've done that, please explain briefly how parasitism relates to sexual reproduction.

Once you've demonstrated an understanding of these very, very basic concepts, we can talk about evolution."

 

ummm no we can start another thread if you want i specifically made this thread for this question. by the way everything you asked me to explain i already know. so you can stop avoiding my question and answer it if you can.

 

 


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Quote: by the way everything

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by the way everything you asked me to explain i already know. so you can stop avoiding my question and answer it if you can.

Prove it.  Then we'll talk.

 

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*sigh*

this is typical atheist behavior when they are given an question they know they cant answer they change the subject. this  thread is about emotions and concioussness nothing else, so answer my question. like i said before you can make another thread then i will answer it there. becuase once we change the subject then other people will come in and keep it on that topic and the whole thread will be reuined.


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IknowTruth wrote:this is

IknowTruth wrote:

this is typical atheist behavior when they are given an question they know they cant answer they change the subject. this  thread is about emotions and concioussness nothing else, so answer my question. like i said before you can make another thread then i will answer it there. becuase once we change the subject then other people will come in and keep it on that topic and the whole thread will be reuined.

No, the problem is that many people waltz onto the forum making broad claims about evolution without any knowledge of the topic at all.

As already stated, emotional responses can be advantageous from an evolutionary perspective.  Social behaviors allows groups of individuals to work together, increasing the survival of the species, as well as the individual.  Emotional reactions such as fear and sadness help people avoid dangerous and harmful situations.  Anger is useful for motivating people to act and can aid in thinking (there was a recent Times article about that).  Empathy is useful in relationships and social bonding.  And so on.

Your claims that evolution requires aggressive, emotionless behavior (isn't that self-contradictory) are completely baseless. 


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...

"No, the problem is that many people waltz onto the forum making broad claims about evolution without any knowledge of the topic at all.

As already stated, emotional responses can be advantageous from an evolutionary perspective.  Social behaviors allows groups of individuals to work together, increasing the survival of the species, as well as the individual.  Emotional reactions such as fear and sadness help people avoid dangerous and harmful situations.  Anger is useful for motivating people to act and can aid in thinking (there was a recent Times article about that).  Empathy is useful in relationships and social bonding.  And so on.

Your claims that evolution requires aggressive, emotionless behavior (isn't that self-contradictory) are completely baseless."

 

i really dont see how having the emotion of sadness benefits any animal. do you really know that means evolution had to think and say"hmmm let me add emotions to help orgainisms" we know evolution is an imaginary process it has no mind. evolution really said "let me add the ability that animals cry to show when their sad,let me add anger to show when their mad" come on now...


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IknowTruth wrote:i really

IknowTruth wrote:

i really dont see how having the emotion of sadness benefits any animal. do you really know that means evolution had to think and say"hmmm let me add emotions to help orgainisms" we know evolution is an imaginary process it has no mind. evolution really said "let me add the ability that animals cry to show when their sad,let me add anger to show when their mad" come on now...

Bonding.  Dogs and humans (the two examples you've already used) operate best as pack animals.  There are other animals that operate best on their own and don't form communities.  For pack animals, ones that operate best as communities then bonding is very important and part of that is empathy, or feeling sad when another is sad ... sharing of emotions.  It strengthens the bonds between the two animals which in turn strengthens the pack.

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IknowTruth wrote:i really

IknowTruth wrote:
i really dont see how having the emotion of sadness benefits any animal. do you really know that means evolution had to think and say"hmmm let me add emotions to help orgainisms" we know evolution is an imaginary process it has no mind. evolution really said "let me add the ability that animals cry to show when their sad,let me add anger to show when their mad" come on now...

 

1) I suspect that emotions are more interconnected than you think.

2) Remember that evolution is the non-random selection of randomly varying replicators.

"What right have you to condemn a murderer if you assume him necessary to "God's plan"? What logic can command the return of stolen property, or the branding of a thief, if the Almighty decreed it?"
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IknowTruth wrote:i really

IknowTruth wrote:
i really dont see how having the emotion of sadness benefits any animal. do you really know that means evolution had to think and say"hmmm let me add emotions to help orgainisms" we know evolution is an imaginary process it has no mind. evolution really said "let me add the ability that animals cry to show when their sad,let me add anger to show when their mad" come on now...

Someone else has already pointed this out, but I think if more people do, you won't think they're a lonely voice in the wilderness. First of all, your ignorance of how the scientific process works is staggering, and it's obvious from one short post.

Second, you have clearly read no material on the behaviour of animals or humans in groups. We have never been solitary creatures. Ecosystems are not filled with individuals, they are filled with interdependence just as much as they are filled with competition. Emotion and social interaction are just now beginning to be understood with any level of clarity.

Your assumption is that if you can't manage to reconcile evolutionary theory with emotion, then God. It sounds like you would blame God if you couldn't find your car keys.

I beg you to read and think for yourself. But read first.

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ummm no...

so tell me this evolution said" lets add it where animals display sad expressions, cry, cry over their owners,cry over the death of another animal or a human cry over another animal"evolution does not have a mind of its own so it cannot add emotions. if you are evil trust me you lose all conciousness all you have is anger with no regrets sometimes you just kill with no emotions at all,no anger,sadness nothing. people have the ability to loose conciousness depending on their soul.an evil soul has no sympathy upon anyone. most people in jail believed in no god, and some were actually worshippers of satan. people who have interviewed them witnessed their emotionless ways. they would ask them why did they kill so ruthlessly? they would just say they felt like it. this is an common question. do you have any regrets or sorrow? you know the answer NO...there is a t.v show called most evil where people have commited the worst crimes possible. you will see their emotionless ways. plain and simple god add this to everyone, not no evolution.


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You can sit back, and bark

You can sit back, and bark at evolution all you want... wont bother me one bit... BUT when you bring EVIL into the mix... you bring me as well, not a very wise thing to do Eye-wink

 

IknowTruth wrote:

so tell me this evolution said" lets add it where animals display sad expressions, cry, cry over their owners,cry over the death of another animal or a human cry over another animal"evolution does not have a mind of its own so it cannot add emotions.

 

Actually its "Evolution does not have a mind of its own, SO it cant say anything" Evolution is a scientific process... not a god or holy book... dont reffer to it as such

 

IknowTruth wrote:

if you are evil trust me you lose all conciousness all you have is anger with no regrets sometimes you just kill with no emotions at all,no anger,sadness nothing.

 

Firstly, as was said before its CONSCIENCE NOT CONCIOUSNESS

CONSCIENCE;

the complex of ethical and moral principles that controls or inhibits the actions or thoughts of an individual.

 

CONCIOUSNESS

the state of being conscious; awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc

 

Now which do you think is the right word? (you need not avoid using the word conscience, JUST because it has science in its name Sticking out tongue )

 

Now where were we? AH! yes...

 

IknowTruth wrote:

if you are evil trust me you lose all conciousness all you have is anger with no regrets sometimes you just kill with no emotions at all,no anger,sadness nothing.

 

Your describing psychopaths... in your own... "theistic" way (im assuming psychology isnt part of your knowledge bank either... )

 

Just so you know... anger, hatred, sadness, and joy do happen to play very big roles in their heads, but some one like you could never understand >.>

 

IknowTruth wrote:

there is a t.v show called most evil where people have commited the worst crimes possible. you will see their emotionless ways. plain and simple god add this to everyone, not no evolution.

 

Show me, i want to see this show (gimme a clip! anything!) Not calling you a liar, but it definitely peaked my interest

 

We'll stop here for now until you can reply, then we may get into this "EVIL" business

 

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IknowTruth wrote:so tell me

IknowTruth wrote:
so tell me this evolution said" lets add it where animals display sad expressions, cry, cry over their owners,cry over the death of another animal or a human cry over another animal"evolution does not have a mind of its own so it cannot add emotions.

Why would emotions have to be "added"? You haven't looked up evolution at all, have you?

In the same vein, I'd like to argue that the God of the Bible is actually a Rutabega. How do I know this? I didn't read the Bible. So I know.

The Bible was carefully scribed in illuminated text by psychic dolphins, therefore God = Rutabega. That's about how much sense you're making right now.

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... oh THIS life is so

... oh THIS life is so so amazing , let's call it GOD'S doing , and stop there ?

"Praise God?" , now what ???? Argue for GOD ???  Which one ? FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT for god ???? Of course , it's evolution ! 

What the fuck is this GOD people fight for ???? Must I kill you all for my peace .... got MY best finger on the evolution trigger, as god evolution so demands. 

((( I kind of fucked that metaphor up ,  so I will evolve further, with more of ME god's luck .....&nbspEye-wink))

I love GOD, I have no choice .... I AM what I AM , no surrendering ..... Self Love RULES.  Evolution kills the bad guys , and Loves the good guys, well so it tries .... Thanks god.

Check out Dan Dennett on consciousness  http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=+Dan+Dennett+on+consciousness&spell=1

 


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You're a long way from

You're a long way from Wal-Mart, Kimosabe. Moving forward...

IknowTruth wrote:
we all know that humans including animals have a conscousness. when someone is feeling down we feel sorry for them,even with dogs when their owner is hurt they would cry.

You're conflating consciousness and conscience or empathy, as mentioned by others.

IknowTruth wrote:
if these emotions wasnt put in by god,then what put them there?

Ah, the famous, "If you don't put carrots up your ass, what do you put there?" begging the question argument.

IknowTruth wrote:
it sure wasnt evolution because that means evolution would literally have a mind of its own.

Begging the question, again.

IknowTruth wrote:
evolution is mostly known as "surival of the fittest"

Meaning you don't know anything about it, but you saw some bumper stickers you agreed with.

IknowTruth wrote:
it would not add the ability where animals feel sorrow because as i know evolution makes species able to surive in any habitat. so that means they must be agressive and have no emotions.

Unless survival was somehow helped by, uh, cooperation and stupid shit like that. But what evidence do we have for that? Pfft.

IknowTruth wrote:
why would evolution put the ability where animals feel sad for their owner or even cry period?

Begging the question... again.

IknowTruth wrote:
why do we cry when we see people are hurt or loose a loved one?

Because some animals, like ourselves, benefitted from having empathy. There are other animals, like sharks, that wouldn't give a shit if you killed their kin in front of them; or lions who would do it themselves. If you're going to point to some animals as evidence for whatever stupid, insipid non-sequitur you're pushing, you have to acknowledge their counterparts.

IknowTruth wrote:
simple answer god. god put emotions in everyone,if you can explain other wise share you thoughts thanks Smiling

It's not worth dignifying.


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You know jack

sigh... such a short thread and already so many good points have been made.

I really think there is no need to add anything else... but I still get the feeling he/she won't get it.

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IknowTruth wrote: i really

IknowTruth wrote:

 

i really dont see how having the emotion of sadness benefits any animal.

 

         I often wondered about this type of question myself, however, after reading a couple good books on evolution I came to understand that evolution is a dumb/mindless process that doesn't need to identify traits as beneficial or detrimental. For example, a trait can be passed down arbitrarily, riding the coattails of genetics for generations while actually serving no beneficial purpose. Thus, if (in your opinion) emotion serves no benefit to the survival of the animal, there could still be an evolutionary way to explain the presence of that characteristic presently.

       In case you're interested, Daniel Dennet wrote a book on this very subject called Consciousness Explained.

 

Good luck.

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"Because some animals, like

"Because some animals, like ourselves, benefitted from having empathy. There are other animals, like sharks, that wouldn't give a shit if you killed their kin in front of them; or lions who would do it themselves. If you're going to point to some animals as evidence for whatever stupid, insipid non-sequitur you're pushing, you have to acknowledge their counterparts."

 

how would evolution know if empathy would benefit us? lions usually dont kill their family. male lions usually kill another male lions cubs because they may be a threat to his cubs.studies have even shown elephants going back to the same exact spot where one of their members died every year and showing empathy.same with dolphins,just like how dogs can detect when their owners will have seizures before they even know and they also can see things we normally cant see such as spirits.


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"Why would emotions have to

"Why would emotions have to be "added"? You haven't looked up evolution at all, have you?"

 

i wonder the same thing why would evolution add emotions.


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"Bonding.  Dogs and humans

"Bonding.  Dogs and humans (the two examples you've already used) operate best as pack animals.  There are other animals that operate best on their own and don't form communities.  For pack animals, ones that operate best as communities then bonding is very important and part of that is empathy, or feeling sad when another is sad ... sharing of emotions.  It strengthens the bonds between the two animals which in turn strengthens the pack."

so youre telling me evolution said "oh what the heck,lets add emotions so some animals can bond." you can use the word consience and concoiousness. because when some people kill they just kill and never even remeber and doctors know this. conscience is where they kill with no remorse they are regretless they show no signs of emotion even when in the death penality,theve given their life to satan and he is emotionless the only emotion he really has is hate pure hate.


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IknowTruth wrote: how would

IknowTruth wrote:
 

how would evolution know if empathy would benefit us? lions usually dont kill their family. male lions usually kill another male lions cubs because they may be a threat to his cubs.studies have even shown elephants going back to the same exact spot where one of their members died every year and showing empathy.same with dolphins,just like how dogs can detect when their owners will have seizures before they even know and they also can see things we normally cant see such as spirits.

Possible advantages of empathy and other emotions have been pointed out several times now.

Again, empathy helps in bonding and social behavior.  Consider that almost all mammals take care of their young.  If a mother didn't care about her child, there wouldn't be incentive to take care of it. 

Other emotions:  Anger can be helpful in motivation and decision making.  Fear and sadness can be helpful in avoiding danger and harmful behavior.  These are broad examples, but they certainly satisfy your request for ways that emotional responses can be helpful.

Dogs can't see spirits.  What are you talking about?


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"Show me, i want to see this

"Show me, i want to see this show (gimme a clip! anything!) Not calling you a liar, but it definitely peaked my interest

 

We'll stop here for now until you can reply, then we may get into this "EVIL" business"

 

here is a link to the show it comes on discovery channel http://www.discoverytv.com/emea/most+evil.htm these people would commit crimes so horrible with no remorse you wouldnt even believe it. people really think all these people have only pshycological problems. no pshycological problems can cause you to kill people with ease and no regrets. its sad people never pray for them because they think demons are fairy tales and non-existant. satan wants you to think  both him and god is non-existant that way you dont turn to god. god mentions demons in the bible where they enter peoples body and cause them to do serious damage to themselves and others. its sad people think this is a joke until its to late.


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IknowTruth wrote:so youre

IknowTruth wrote:

so youre telling me evolution said "oh what the heck,lets add emotions so some animals can bond."

Evolution is not directed in that sense.  It doesn't actively make decisions about things.  Emotional responses can help in social behavior, which increases the overall survivability of the individual and the species.

IknowTruth wrote:
you can use the word consience and concoiousness. because when some people kill they just kill and never even remeber and doctors know this. conscience is where they kill with no remorse they are regretless they show no signs of emotion even when in the death penality,theve given their life to satan and he is emotionless the only emotion he really has is hate pure hate.

 

This has nothing to do with evolution.

It also doesn't make any sense.

 


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"Emotional responses can

"Emotional responses can help in social behavior, which increases the overall survivability of the individual and the species."

 

i know that thats why god added emotions. recently doctors found that laughter and good words can actually increase a persons health. but the bible been stated that.


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IknowTruth wrote: here is a

IknowTruth wrote:

 here is a link to the show it comes on discovery channel http://www.discoverytv.com/emea/most+evil.htm these people would commit crimes so horrible with no remorse you wouldnt even believe it. people really think all these people have only pshycological problems. no pshycological problems can cause you to kill people with ease and no regrets. its sad people never pray for them because they think demons are fairy tales and non-existant. satan wants you to think  both him and god is non-existant that way you dont turn to god. god mentions demons in the bible where they enter peoples body and cause them to do serious damage to themselves and others. its sad people think this is a joke until its to late.

 

I actually went looking for that show yesterday on google... found it, but its nothing worth our time. Just sensationalist bullshit (reality tv >.> ).

 

I hate to break it to you, but it is INDEED mental problems that cause such actions, not demons... seeing as i would not be able to convince you in such by logical means... i shall do it with irrational means.

-----

A demon, WOULD NOT GET CAUGHT. crawling up from the depths of hell itself only to go beserk, kill a few innocents, get caught and wind up in a jail cell until its host dies? gimme a break >.> we're talking about the masters of evil here... you dont think, that they couldnt avoid some mortal fuckin cops? -_- for shame...

-----

I can rattle off a list of psychological issues that WOULD cause a person to kill with ease... without pity... nor mercy

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IknowTruth wrote:"Emotional

IknowTruth wrote:

"Emotional responses can help in social behavior, which increases the overall survivability of the individual and the species."

 i know that thats why god added emotions. recently doctors found that laughter and good words can actually increase a persons health. but the bible been stated that.

By acknowledging that there is an evolutionary advantage to emotions, you have both defeated your own argument and further displayed your gross ignorance of evolution.


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IknowTruth wrote:recently

IknowTruth wrote:

recently doctors found that laughter and good words can actually increase a persons health.

Well, thank you for improving our health Iknowtruth, because i assure you...

 

Much laughter is being had... at your expense

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"I actually went looking for

"I actually went looking for that show yesterday on google... found it, but its nothing worth our time. Just sensationalist bullshit (reality tv >.> ).

 

I hate to break it to you, but it is INDEED mental problems that cause such actions, not demons... seeing as i would not be able to convince you in such by logical means... i shall do it with irrational means.

-----

A demon, WOULD NOT GET CAUGHT. crawling up from the depths of hell itself only to go beserk, kill a few innocents, get caught and wind up in a jail cell until its host dies? gimme a break >.> we're talking about the masters of evil here... you dont think, that they couldnt avoid some mortal fuckin cops? -_- for shame...

-----

I can rattle off a list of psychological issues that WOULD cause a person to kill with ease... without pity... nor mercy"

 

how is the t.v show reality bullshit? they have actually interviewed the killers and they even usually show the graphic images.the killers would just smirk and brag about it like its a walk in the park.do you think a demon would try to avoid someone from going to jail? they want everyone to suffer even if one person is killed and that person goes to jail satan will be satisfied. when he was cast out of heaven satans goal was to forever get as many souls in hell as possible. name some of the psychological issues that would cause someone to kill 70 people like its a walk in the park.


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"By acknowledging that there

"By acknowledging that there is an evolutionary advantage to emotions, you have both defeated your own argument and further displayed your gross ignorance of evolution."

 

are you slow or just ignorant? getting good health is not evolution. if you stop laughing and become bitter your health would deteriate again...


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IknowTruth wrote:how is the

IknowTruth wrote:

how is the t.v show reality bullshit? they have actually interviewed the killers

Well firstly, its actually listed as reality tv, second, those arent THEIR interviews... those are interviews of other reporters, used to make their show. I dont expect you to see the other flaws in the show, mainly because it involves psychology.

 

IknowTruth wrote:

and they even usually show the graphic images.

The vast majority were event recreations >.>

 

IknowTruth wrote:

the killers would just smirk and brag about it like its a walk in the park.

Just as some one who robbed the first national bank, and had $50million waiting on the outside... would do? -_- hehe

 

IknowTruth wrote:

do you think a demon would try to avoid someone from going to jail? they want everyone to suffer even if one person is killed and that person goes to jail satan will be satisfied. when he was cast out of heaven satans goal was to forever get as many souls in hell as possible.

Yes, but you forget, demons can only possess a person, nothing else, they dont have the power to influence in other ways (like satan and god)... so for a demon to possess a human, do evil acts and get CAUGHT is just retarded... evil they may be, but their also immortal and far more intelligent than you or i... a demon getting caught in the hosts body and being sent to jail under-mines the demons plans, he is now trapped with 2 choices, return to hell, or stay in the body until it dies, and then return to hell >.> 2 things a demon DOES NOT WANT (remember, demons hate hell just as much as sinners Sticking out tongue )

 

So from this, i can conclude that any demon, in possession of a human, cannot, and will not... be caught

 

IknowTruth wrote:

name some of the psychological issues that would cause someone to kill 70 people like its a walk in the park.

Psycopath

Sociopath

Accute Paranoia

Scitzophrenia

Being a Marine (hehe )

Combinations of the above Sticking out tongue

Hell, a person doesnt even need those to kill 70, any one could do it out of pure blind rage

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IknowTruth wrote: I can

IknowTruth wrote:

 

I can rattle off a list of psychological issues that WOULD cause a person to kill with ease... without pity... nor mercy"

 

 

Me too, but I'd rather take the word of the Christian mother Andrea Yates who drowned her five children in a bathtub to prevent them from going to hell.

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IknowTruth wrote:name some

IknowTruth wrote:

name some of the psychological issues that would cause someone to kill 70 people like its a walk in the park.

I found evidence of just such a massacre with the details coming straight out of the Bible.  The main perpetrator's name was Joshua and the body toll ( based upon the total destruction of all the city's inhabitants ) would easily have exceeded a paltry 70 individuals.

"They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it, men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys."  Joshua 6:21

Religious zeal was apparently the force behind this example of "killing ___?  number of people like it was a walk in the park." 

Yeah, I'd say Joshua had some serious issues.

 

ps, but it's okay for ol' Joshua and Andrea Yates to wantonly kill without mercy because if you were to ask either one of them why they killed innocent victims they would give the same reply:

"God told me to!"

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Hambydammit wrote:...you

Hambydammit wrote:

...

you could read the following series of lectures by Deludedgod, who happens to be a scientist in this very field...

 

 

WOW! Just Wow, DG that's so generous.  We'll all have BioTech Diplomas by the time you're done with us. Sticking out tongue

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"They devoted the city to

"They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it, men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys."  Joshua 6:21"

 

seriously why do atheist take out one part of the whole chapter of the bible, and say god killed people for no reason.  there is always a reason for god destroying cities and people. for example sodom and gomoroah was a place of sin. it was so sinful only two people were found righteous(i am sure if this was to happen to the today so many will be destroyed while very few live, there is still sinners and blasphemers of god a very lot) if you not going to explain the reason for why god killed them then dont post the verse.


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IknowTruth wrote:so youre

IknowTruth wrote:
so youre telling me evolution said "oh what the heck,lets add emotions so some animals can bond." you can use the word consience and concoiousness. because when some people kill they just kill and never even remeber and doctors know this. conscience is where they kill with no remorse they are regretless they show no signs of emotion evenwhen in the death penality,theve given their life to satan and he is emotionless the only emotion he really has is hate pure hate.

I said no such thing.  The basic idea behind evolution is that if one creature grows a trait that is advantageous to the species it is more likely to pass on that trait than a creature that grows one which is disadvantageous.  We discovered we work better as a team rather than solo.  We started working as a team and more of us survived.  Those who didn't work as a team didn't reproduce and pass on their genes.  Some gained the trait of bonding and empathy.  That trait was more beneficial to the pack than the trait others may have had of destruction and murder, so those with the bonding trait reproduced and the trait survived.

The person who kills with no remorse is much less likely to pass on their genes and values other than by rape, where as the kind and gentle are more likely to find a partner to pass these things on.  The violent killer traits still survive but are repressive traits.  The talk of satan I'll ignore as it's pure fiction.

IknowTruth wrote:
how would evolution know if empathy would benefit us? lions usually dont kill their family. male lions usually kill another male lions cubs because they may be a threat to his cubs.studies have even shown elephants going back to the same exact spot where one of their members died every year and showing empathy.same with dolphins,just like how dogs can detect when their owners will have seizures before they even know and they also can see things we normally cant see such as spirits.

I think I'm starting to see where you're coming from.  You're under the mistaken delusion that evolution is a conscious entity that can make decisions and choices.  It isn't.  The sooner you stop thinking like that the better.  Evolution is not some kind of god like your fictional sugar daddy in the sky, yahweh.  It's more a case of trial and error.  The changes that work are passed on to the next generation, those that don't work aren't.  Thousands of generations of minor changes each no more significant than the differences in looks between my parents and me result in the original being quite different from the thousandth.

Basically, as people have been saying, you do not actually understand evolution at all.  That is why it makes no sense to you.  Go read a book, something NOT recommended by AIG or other creationists.

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IknowTruth wrote:  how is

IknowTruth wrote:

 

how is the t.v show reality bullshit? they have actually interviewed the killers

 

 

"Well firstly, its actually listed as reality tv, second, those arent THEIR interviews... those are interviews of other reporters, used to make their show. I dont expect you to see the other flaws in the show, mainly because it involves psychology."

ok on every episode they ALWAYS have a an exact photo or video of the person. do you actually think someone would volunteer for them to use their photo on a show where they talk about psycopathic killers? it must be real because no one wouldnt want to be seen as a killer if they arent,but every one on there are killers. they always show the court cases of these killers and background information. everything on their is real, they even show dead bodies(which is very gruesome and graphic) i dont think they would use people dead body on a fake reality t.v show...no

IknowTruth wrote:

 

and they even usually show the graphic images.

 

 

"The vast majority were event recreations >.."

you must have never seen the show then.

IknowTruth wrote:

 

do you think a demon would try to avoid someone from going to jail? they want everyone to suffer even if one person is killed and that person goes to jail satan will be satisfied. when he was cast out of heaven satans goal was to forever get as many souls in hell as possible.

 

 

Yes, but you forget, demons can only possess a person, nothing else, they dont have the power to influence in other ways (like satan and god)... so for a demon to possess a human, do evil acts and get CAUGHT is just retarded... evil they may be, but their also immortal and far more intelligent than you or i... a demon getting caught in the hosts body and being sent to jail under-mines the demons plans, he is now trapped with 2 choices, return to hell, or stay in the body until it dies, and then return to hell >.> 2 things a demon DOES NOT WANT (remember, demons hate hell just as much as sinners Sticking out tongue )

 

this is only a FEW of the demon posessions in the bible and what they will do to an host.Acts 16:16-18 verse 16"And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:"

verse 17 "The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. "

verse 18 "18And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour."

 

Mark 5:1-20 

"1They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes.[a] 2When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an evil[b] spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him any more, not even with a chain. 4For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones."

as you can see he was CUTTING himself with stones, the demons were intent on killing him, he just had the will power to fight them off and god didnt allow them to fully take him out.

again..."6When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!" 8For Jesus had said to him, "Come out of this man, you evil spirit!"

 

"9Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"

   "My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many." 10And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area."

 "11A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12The demons begged Jesus, "Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them." 13He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned."

trust me demons will ALWAYS get caught when you come to god for help, god says if you dont seek him he doesnt know you, you are the child of satan thats why you MUST seek god. the demons were so afraid when jesus cast them out becuase they didnt want to be sent back to hell they begged jesus to have mercy and jesus was even merciful to demons he is just that way. but they wouldnt have freedom for long, the demons were so intent on killing they immediately drowned the pigs the only thing they know is to kill.when demons have a host they are free from hell only at that time.god tells us demons roam the earth, do not get demons confused with human souls. once a person dies and go to hell thats it there is no roaming.this is only a few of the demon possesions in the bible.

 


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IknowTruth wrote:"They

IknowTruth wrote:

"They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it, men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys."  Joshua 6:21"

 

seriously why do atheist take out one part of the whole chapter of the bible, and say god killed people for no reason.  there is always a reason for god destroying cities and people. for example sodom and gomoroah was a place of sin. it was so sinful only two people were found righteous(i am sure if this was to happen to the today so many will be destroyed while very few live, there is still sinners and blasphemers of god a very lot) if you not going to explain the reason for why god killed them then dont post the verse.

 

Does it matter why God killed them?

 

Did God kill them because it was good thing to do? Or was it a good thing to do only because God was the one who did it?

 

If anything God does is good, then that kind of morality is bull. I could, after all, say that anything I choose to do is automatically good and justified, but that would be ridiculous and unfair, so I wouldn't. I wouldn't give the "god" character that privelege either. I'm not going to accept that he's great just because he defines himself that way. If I don't like the things he does, then I don't have to pretend that I actually like them.

 

It doesn't matter why he killed an entire city. He killed an entire city.

A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.


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  IknowTruth wrote:

 

 

IknowTruth wrote:

 

"They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it, men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys."  Joshua 6:21"

 

seriously why do atheist take out one part of the whole chapter of the bible, and say god killed people for no reason.  there is always a reason for god destroying cities and people. for example sodom and gomoroah was a place of sin. it was so sinful only two people were found righteous(i am sure if this was to happen to the today so many will be destroyed while very few live, there is still sinners and blasphemers of god a very lot) if you not going to explain the reason for why god killed them then dont post the verse.

 

 

 

Does it matter why God killed them?

 

Did God kill them because it was good thing to do? Or was it a good thing to do only because God was the one who did it?

 

If anything God does is good, then that kind of morality is bull. I could, after all, say that anything I choose to do is automatically good and justified, but that would be ridiculous and unfair, so I wouldn't. I wouldn't give the "god" character that privelege either. I'm not going to accept that he's great just because he defines himself that way. If I don't like the things he does, then I don't have to pretend that I actually like them.

 

It doesn't matter why he killed an entire city. He killed an entire city."

 

the only reason i would see why an person would kill is in self defense. trust me god knows what is best, even if it means killing. read this "Under the section of Joshua he tells us that at excavations at Gezer, contain the stratum that was of Cannanite culture prior to the arrival of the Israelites. The sacrifices found there contained a great number of jars that held the remains of children. It was an entire cemetery for newborn babies that had been sacrificed." it doesnt mention this in the bible but god doesnt have to explain everything to us to the pin-point. as you can see people used children as sacrafices to an imaginary god, and this is not the ony reason for their punishment god mentions it in the bible.

 

 


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"We discovered we work

"We discovered we work better as a team rather than solo.  We started working as a team and more of us survived.  Those who didn't work as a team didn't reproduce and pass on their genes.  Some gained the trait of bonding and empathy.  That trait was more beneficial to the pack than the trait others may have had of destruction and murder, so those with the bonding trait reproduced and the trait survived.

The person who kills with no remorse is much less likely to pass on their genes and values other than by rape, where as the kind and gentle are more likely to find a partner to pass these things on.  The violent killer traits still survive but are repressive traits.  The talk of satan I'll ignore as it's pure fiction."

 

ok i know many humans who dont work as  team and still pass on their genes many. there can be some one so kind who has an child so mean at an young age. behavior genes isnt passed down, any one can decide for themselves to be mean or nice, sometimes people cant help it because there are spirits we cant see that change people. sadly no one believe that is the reason they instead fill them up with medicines that never work for the rest of their days.there are people who can hide their evil traits when there are really so evil. even satan can hide his true identity he's tempted so many people as if he was good...so no one is born good or bad because of traits its how they live their lives that determine their true traits. 


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IknowTruth wrote:ok on every

IknowTruth wrote:

ok on every episode they ALWAYS have a an exact photo or video of the person. do you actually think someone would volunteer for them to use their photo on a show where they talk about psycopathic killers?

Victim no...

but a psychopath? you bet they would

 

IknowTruth wrote:

it must be real because no one wouldnt want to be seen as a killer if they arent,but every one on there are killers. they always show the court cases of these killers and background information.

Thats not in dispute

 

 

 

 

IknowTruth wrote:

this is only a FEW of the demon posessions in the bible and what they will do to an host.

We're not talking about the Bible, we're talking about demons, i wouldnt combine the 2, you'll end up kicking yourself in the ass later

 

IknowTruth wrote:

Acts 16:16-18 verse 16"And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:"verse 17 "The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. "

verse 18 "18And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour."

 Mark 5:1-20 

"1They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes.[a] 2When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an evil[b] spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him any more, not even with a chain. 4For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones."

Bible bunk... trust me, dont use biblical demons, your not gonna like were it ends up >.>

 

IknowTruth wrote:

as you can see he was CUTTING himself with stones, the demons were intent on killing him, he just had the will power to fight them off and god didnt allow them to fully take him out.

I remember a recent christian that thought the devil possessed his hand at night (touched himself to much or something) so he decided to lop it off with a steak knife and cook it in a micro-wave... do we really want to go down this road?

 

IknowTruth wrote:

again..."6When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!" 8For Jesus had said to him, "Come out of this man, you evil spirit!"

"9Ten Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"

   "My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many." 10And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area."

 "11A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12The demons begged Jesus, "Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them." 13He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned."

Bunk bunk bunk

although i will comment that 2000 pigs >.> i think not... the sheer logistics and primitive economy could not allow, let alone hand such a thing.

 

IknowTruth wrote:

trust me demons will ALWAYS get caught when you come to god for help,

Oh? is there any proof to back this up? because it kinda goes against everything stated other wise >.>

 

IknowTruth wrote:

god says if you dont seek him he doesnt know you, you are the child of satan thats why you MUST seek god. the demons were so afraid when jesus cast them out becuase they didnt want to be sent back to hell they begged jesus to have mercy and jesus was even merciful to demons he is just that way. but they wouldnt have freedom for long, the demons were so intent on killing they immediately drowned the pigs the only thing they know is to kill.when demons have a host they are free from hell only at that time.god tells us demons roam the earth, do not get demons confused with human souls. once a person dies and go to hell thats it there is no roaming.this is only a few of the demon possesions in the bible.

AGAIN! bunk... and completely against everything known to be true about demons (as supplied by the catholic church )

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IknowTruth wrote:  trust me

IknowTruth wrote:

 

trust me demons will ALWAYS get caught when you come to god for help,

 

 

"Oh? is there any proof to back this up? because it kinda goes against everything stated other wise >.>"

 

things that you stated or i stated?

 


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IknowTruth wrote:  ok on

IknowTruth wrote:

 

ok on every episode they ALWAYS have a an exact photo or video of the person. do you actually think someone would volunteer for them to use their photo on a show where they talk about psycopathic killers?

 

 

"Victim no...

but a psychopath? you bet they would"

 

how would a victim submit their photo if their dead? are you sure you arent mentally ill?

IknowTruth wrote:

 

this is only a FEW of the demon posessions in the bible and what they will do to an host.

 

 

"We're not talking about the Bible, we're talking about demons, i wouldnt combine the 2, you'll end up kicking yourself in the ass later"

demons are mentioned everywhere in the bible.

 

IknowTruth wrote:

 

Acts 16:16-18 verse 16"And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:"verse 17 "The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. "

verse 18 "18And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour."

 Mark 5:1-20 

"1They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes.[a] 2When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an evil[b] spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him any more, not even with a chain. 4For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones."

 

 

"Bible bunk... trust me, dont use biblical demons, your not gonna like were it ends up >.>"

ok which demons should i use? evolution demons?

IknowTruth wrote:

 

as you can see he was CUTTING himself with stones, the demons were intent on killing him, he just had the will power to fight them off and god didnt allow them to fully take him out.

 

 

"I remember a recent christian that thought the devil possessed his hand at night (touched himself to much or something) so he decided to lop it off with a steak knife and cook it in a micro-wave... do we really want to go down this road?"

there is no proof of this but if this is true he shouldve known that god wouldnt want him to harm himself,just pray.

 

 

 

 


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We really need to teach you

We really need to teach you how to properly use the quote function

 

iknowtruth wrote:



 how would a victim submit their photo if their dead? are you sure you arent mentally ill?

 

Most often times, a victims family will be asked for the rights to post/illustrate information, as well... the courts themselves my be asked to release certain info into the public domain (and not all serial killer victims die Sticking out tongue )

 

iknowtruth wrote:

demons are mentioned everywhere in the bible.

 

Demons are mentioned in many places, not just the bible, to use just the bible in regards to your arguement will do you more harm then good (i feel we'll be skirtting the line very shortly... )


iknowtruth wrote:

ok which demons should i use? evolution demons?

Could you? i havent found a way to add them into this discussion yet, i'd appriciate the help

 

 

iknowtruth wrote:

there is no proof of this but if this is true he shouldve known that god wouldnt want him to harm himself,just pray.

 

The news article was posted on this very site (looking for it as we speak)

 

And you should know better then to think that prayer wouldnt have removed his devil hand, he needs an exorism for that! ^_^

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IknowTruth wrote:sometimes

IknowTruth wrote:

sometimes people cant help it because there are spirits we cant see that change people. sadly no one believe that is the reason they instead fill them up with medicines that never work for the rest of their days.there are people who can hide their evil traits when there are really so evil. even satan can hide his true identity he's tempted so many people as if he was good...so no one is born good or bad because of traits its how they live their lives that determine their true traits. 

I'll take that as a concession of a win as all you've done in response is spout fictitious gobbledygook.

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thingy wrote:IknowTruth

thingy wrote:

IknowTruth wrote:

sometimes people cant help it because there are spirits we cant see that change people. sadly no one believe that is the reason they instead fill them up with medicines that never work for the rest of their days.there are people who can hide their evil traits when there are really so evil. even satan can hide his true identity he's tempted so many people as if he was good...so no one is born good or bad because of traits its how they live their lives that determine their true traits. 

I'll take that as a concession of a win as all you've done in response is spout fictitious gobbledygook.

 

Quiet Thingy, im not done seeing how far his rabbit hole goes

What Would Kharn Do?


The Doomed Soul
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Mr.Microwave http://www.cnn.

Mr.Microwave

 

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/09/hand.cut.off.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

(im actually having trouble loading all of this one myself, so barring that... )

 

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080109/NEWS07/80109037/0/NEWS06

( same story, less journalism )

What Would Kharn Do?


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IknowTruth wrote:"Because

IknowTruth wrote:

"Because some animals, like ourselves, benefitted from having empathy. There are other animals, like sharks, that wouldn't give a shit if you killed their kin in front of them; or lions who would do it themselves. If you're going to point to some animals as evidence for whatever stupid, insipid non-sequitur you're pushing, you have to acknowledge their counterparts."

 

how would evolution know if empathy would benefit us? lions usually dont kill their family. male lions usually kill another male lions cubs because they may be a threat to his cubs.studies have even shown elephants going back to the same exact spot where one of their members died every year and showing empathy.same with dolphins,just like how dogs can detect when their owners will have seizures before they even know and they also can see things we normally cant see such as spirits.

You've pretty much made my point for me. The lions do that because their ancestors did that at some point, and the ones that did that passed on their own genes more often than those that did not. Not every animal, and their social structures with them, developed in the same way, so there is a range of behaviors demonstrated. Evolution is a description of how such things proceed, not an alternative agency.

Your further comments are either themselves idiotic, or have been loaded with idiotic conclusions by you, and don't warrant response.


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iknowtruth wrote:  demons

iknowtruth wrote:

 

demons are mentioned everywhere in the bible.

 

 

"Demons are mentioned in many places, not just the bible, to use just the bible in regards to your arguement will do you more harm then good (i feel we'll be skirtting the line very shortly... )"
 

ok demons are mentioned everywhere but it was first mentioned in the bible,demons were created when 1/3 of heaven rebelled against god with satan.


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 You've pretty much made my

 

"You've pretty much made my point for me. The lions do that because their ancestors did that at some point, and the ones that did that passed on their own genes more often than those that did not. Not every animal, and their social structures with them, developed in the same way, so there is a range of behaviors demonstrated. Evolution is a description of how such things proceed, not an alternative agency.

Your further comments are either themselves idiotic, or have been loaded with idiotic conclusions by you, and don't warrant response."

ok lions do not kill because they ancestors did it they were created to be aggresive. lions especially male lions will kill anything other that a lion or a lion thats not in their pride. for example a nomadic male will kill baby cubs because male lions want to cut short competition at all cost and the cubs will be a threat to his cubs surival. male lions have an order in which who eats an kill first and of course  they will eat first because they are most dominant. second in line are the cubs, and you know no male lion isnt going to take care of another males cub so he kills them...im not to familiar with the quoting system yet -_-


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Speed demons

IknowTruth wrote:

ok i know many humans who dont work as  team and still pass on their genes many. there can be some one so kind who has an child so mean at an young age. behavior genes isnt passed down, any one can decide for themselves to be mean or nice, sometimes people cant help it because there are spirits we cant see that change people. sadly no one believe that is the reason they instead fill them up with medicines that never work for the rest of their days.there are people who can hide their evil traits when there are really so evil. even satan can hide his true identity he's tempted so many people as if he was good...so no one is born good or bad because of traits its how they live their lives that determine their true traits. 

That's true. There's a great variety of genes that are passed on, including genes that help define behavior.

As far as the "mean" and "nice" genes, there's no indication there is any such thing. There are combinations of genes that help determine your spectrum of possible behavior. But, if you think all people are either "mean" or "nice," then you've got another think common, my near-illiterate friend. Most people are both. I know I am nice to people who are nice to me, and mean to people who are mean to me. It's my variation on the Golden Rule-- "Do unto others as they have done unto you."

Your genes make up quite a bit about you. There are sets of genes that might make you predisposed to be gay, for instance. There are sets of genes that might make you predisposed to be a complete, selfish jerk. Why do we have this broad spectrum of genes? Because it's no a big selection criteria. Especially in the modern world, there's not a lot of selection pressure against complete jerks. Nor, apperantly, is there a lot of selection pressure against unintelligent people. So, as there is very little selection pressure, there's a lot of latitude in the genetic diversity for those genes.

Now, just because a person is predisposed to be a jerk doesn't mean they have to be a jerk. That's true. They can "choose" to be nice. However, in the arguments of nature vs. nurture, it doesn't matter as long as kids remain with their natural parents. If their parents are jerks, that's the example they'll have to go on, and so will likely be jerks. (Just to be clear: I'm not suggesting we take kids away from their parents. I might suggest that people need a license to breed, but that's just because I'm a cynical bastard, and I really don't mean it.)

As far as medication goes: it's untrue that medication doesn't work. Medication often works. Better living through chemistry, and all that. I would agree that doctors over-prescribe, based on pressure from major pharmaceutical companies. However, I've seen way too many people get over their various problems with medication. I'm not sure if it's because medication drives the demons out, or if they really were just suffering from chemical imbalance, but medication often works.

When you get a headache, do you take anything? How about a cold? Do you take anything to relieve the symptoms?

As far as cold-blooded killin', there's nothing like killin' in the name of the Lord: http://off2dr.com/modules/extcal/event.php?event=76

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers