Was Job's Author an Atheist? [YOU DISCUSS]
Offline Here is a question to consider. It was posed to me by Thomas Thompson, but it is a fascinating question: Obviously the character of Job believes in a God. But, does Job's author believe in a God? Discuss.
(Note: Because we are in the BE forum, I hope that we will get quotes from Job--not just chapter and verse--to back up the cases being made, and we can generate some dialog from both sides.)
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Et suppositio nil ponit in esse.
"You act ridiculously," said Ion, "to doubt everything. For my part, I should like to ask you what you say to those who free possessed men from their terrors by exorcising the spirits so manifestly. I need not discuss this: everyone knows about the Syrian from Palestine, the adept in it, how many he takes in hand who fall down in the light of the moon and roll their eyes and fill their mouths with foam; nevertheless, he restores them to health and sends them away normal in mind, delivering them from their straits for a large fee. When he stands beside them as they lie there and asks : 'Whence came you into his body?' the patient himself is silent, but the spirit answers in Greek or in the language of whatever foreign country he comes from, telling how and whence he entered into the man; whereupon, by adjuring the spirit and if he does not obey, threatening him, he drives him out. Indeed, I actually saw one coming out, black and smoky in color." "It is nothing much," I remarked," for you, Ion, to see that kind of sight, when even the 'forms' that the father of your school, Plato, points out are plain to you, a hazy object of vision to the rest of us, whose eyes are weak." - Lucian, Lover of Lies
Ooh. Neat question. I'm really interested in seeing what the bible folks are going to say. It's been probably over a decade since I read Job, so I can't say I'm qualified to weigh in.
It sure does sound like a morality play, doesn't it?
Never Mind, trust to chance -- keep a sharp look out -- There is many a happy slave.
--Charles Darwin, on whether or not he ought to marry.
I don't know what the answer is...but I think it will take some patience to get.
"It is wonderful to be here in the great state of Chicago"
- Dan Quayle, former U.S. Vice-President
I will start, I suppose, in a moderator position. Here are some possible textual points that would lead to one side or another.
Job's Author the Theist
Job's Author the Atheist
I would add it is very odd the positions that Job takes, that in the end God deems right, over the law which is presented in the words of his three companions which God deems inaccurate. I would like to see what your opinions are. This may require everyone to read Job...OH NOES! =)
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Please help me get my resources so I can finish my book more quickly.
My wish list.
Et suppositio nil ponit in esse.
"You act ridiculously," said Ion, "to doubt everything. For my part, I should like to ask you what you say to those who free possessed men from their terrors by exorcising the spirits so manifestly. I need not discuss this: everyone knows about the Syrian from Palestine, the adept in it, how many he takes in hand who fall down in the light of the moon and roll their eyes and fill their mouths with foam; nevertheless, he restores them to health and sends them away normal in mind, delivering them from their straits for a large fee. When he stands beside them as they lie there and asks : 'Whence came you into his body?' the patient himself is silent, but the spirit answers in Greek or in the language of whatever foreign country he comes from, telling how and whence he entered into the man; whereupon, by adjuring the spirit and if he does not obey, threatening him, he drives him out. Indeed, I actually saw one coming out, black and smoky in color." "It is nothing much," I remarked," for you, Ion, to see that kind of sight, when even the 'forms' that the father of your school, Plato, points out are plain to you, a hazy object of vision to the rest of us, whose eyes are weak." - Lucian, Lover of Lies
i believe job was written by a dragon, as described in job 41.
I doubt Job’s author was an atheist, at least not in the modern sense. It’s been a while since I’ve read Job, but of what I remember, it was trying to solve “the problem of evil.” Actually, it’s worse than that. The question isn’t, “Why do bad things happen?” It’s, “Why does God allow evil things to happen to his faithful servants so God can win a bet with Satan?” And the answer is, “Because God can.”
Now, in the modern day, this might-makes-right answer to theodicy is a strong argument against the Judeo-Christian God, but I doubt that at the time Job was written that atheism was a viable option.
“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” -- George Orwell
This is a really important point. At the time it was written, there was really no such thing as a naturalist position, and what we know as the supernatural hadn't been forced into the oblivion of philosophical nonsense. I think the only question we can ask is whether Job believed specifically in Yahweh.
As for my personal opinion, (I went back and gave it a skim) I am leaning towards a Yahweh-ist author. Simply, the moral of the story is that Job never blamed Yahweh for his ills nor cursed him. Because of his steadfast belief, he was rewarded. Despite his limited perception of the world, he believed unswervingly in God's right to bring both evil and good.
Job 2:10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish [b] woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?"
In all this, Job did not sin in what he said. (footnote: The Hebrew word rendered foolish denotes moral deficiency.)
My observation of this is that there is not a single mention of Job ever pondering the question of whether or not Yahweh existed. The only question was whether or not he was going to curse Yahweh's name.
Further, Job rejects his friends for presuming anything about god's motives:
Job 13:
3 But I desire to speak to the Almighty
and to argue my case with God.
4 You, however, smear me with lies;
you are worthless physicians, all of you!
5 If only you would be altogether silent!
For you, that would be wisdom.
6 Hear now my argument;
listen to the plea of my lips.
7 Will you speak wickedly on God's behalf?
Will you speak deceitfully for him?
8 Will you show him partiality?
Will you argue the case for God?
9 Would it turn out well if he examined you?
Could you deceive him as you might deceive men?
10 He would surely rebuke you
if you secretly showed partiality.
It appears to me that the whole question is whether or not Job remained in his proper place -- that is, to never speak ill of Yahweh. There was never a question of whether Job would stop believing in God, only whether he would curse him. This, to my ears, sounds like a morality tale written specifically to justify the existence of a deity, even when it might appear otherwise.
Never Mind, trust to chance -- keep a sharp look out -- There is many a happy slave.
--Charles Darwin, on whether or not he ought to marry.
The new testament theology is that "believers" are saved by faith. This is the theology of Paul. Yet, he was supposedly blinded by a light from Heaven and Jesus spoke to Him. Now, if these miracles happend to members of the RRS, at first we might think it was a delusion. If it happened reapatedly as in Paul's case, we'd eventually believe based on this revelation directly from God. So Paul, if his story is true, didn't have any faith. He had a direct revelation.
So how could he have been saved if he didn't have any faith? The say is true of all bible authors, they all had a direct revelation from God so there was no need for faith. So they are all not saved.
Stop global whining.
I'm confused. Is this in the right thread? I don't get how this relates to the author of Job.
Never Mind, trust to chance -- keep a sharp look out -- There is many a happy slave.
--Charles Darwin, on whether or not he ought to marry.
Christian theology is that the entire bible is the word of God. So god is the true author of all books of the bible including Job. They claim the human authors received a revelation from the almighty and that this is how the book of Job came into being. So to a Christian the author would have to believe in God since God spoke to them and caused them to write this book.
So the author of Job was a believer, yet he didn't need faith to believe since he has a personal revelation. So if Christian theology is to be consistent with itself, he was a believer without faith so he was unsaved, therefore going to Hell.
Stop global whining.
Never Mind, trust to chance -- keep a sharp look out -- There is many a happy slave.
--Charles Darwin, on whether or not he ought to marry.
The first time I read the book of Job, I figured it was a work from a completely different religion. With the exception of the astonishing cruelty, the book just doesn't fit in. What I noticed most, is that it makes Satan the main character, and in the rest of the OT, he is either non-existent, or unimportant. I was quite young when I first read the Bible, and I didn't know at that time that Job is one of the oldest books since it is a good ways into the OT.
As for Rook's question... Quite frankly, I doubt the sincerity of most of the BuyBull's authors. I find it hard to believe that any of them believed a word they wrote.
(Joshua 10:12)It was nice of God to stop the sun for the Israelites, as no one wants to slaughter Amorites in the dark.
(Joshua 10:12)It was nice of God to stop the sun for the Israelites, as no one wants to slaughter Amorites in the dark.