This idiot says I am debased and depraved? because I undertand his bible far far far better than he does and can explain it far better than him? well if I am debased and depraved...all I can say is...kettle meet pot.

    But the question now comes....can he debate, can he do it without preaching at all? I bet he can't. 

If he person believes, then they are no longer an atheist.

The term "atheist" i mean would not exist if the term "theist" did not, but that was just word play.

Unless yo'ure implying that the formation of religion was malicious in nature and not a person spreading their own formed belief, then it was started by a theist.

If it was used to manipulate people without belief from the originator, then it would hae been an atheist.  And the manipulation of would not be a surprise.  It's not like atheists inherit sin of a former atheist though, so what does it matter if it was originated by an atheist?

Wouldn't that make you all the more gullible for still buying into it and make me all the more correct for not? 

Hey Beatz. A sad turn of events I see developed here: First you bailed out of you own post (http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/atheist_vs_theist/12261) when you would no longer defend your calvinistic beliefs, anouncing that the discussion "bored you". Now I see you here and try and pin theism's creation on atheism, arguing that "A theist cannot be first". If I got this right, you mean a theist could not be a theist and at the same time invent theism, so it had to be an atheist (a really strange development: the "atheist of the gaps"?). So I guess that, by this logic, Joseph Smith was not a mormon, nor Muhammad a Muslim, and we can be damn sure Antisthenes was not a Cynic. I wont point out the obvious of this argument, since Tarpan already did so.

Nope, rather I would like to point out another obvious thing here: this is really, really stupid. What's the point, Beatz, of starting threads and "discussions" you wont even finish, or that, like this particular jewel here, are just crack-baby dumb?

I personally despice getting to the point of having to resort to this kind of image response (see below), but you sir, have earned it in full: http://www.postyourimage.com/view_image.php?img_id=KnAXOkePAtUHCg1201954501

We would share common ancestry with the originators of religious doctrine, assuming you're a human being... which, I guess, is a risk on my part... considering the argument so far. If you admit the premise that religious ideas are "a mess," then you place us in the right for wanting to correct it, leaving yourself to perpetuate what you've admitted is a clusterfuck. I know you didn't mean to do that, it's just that you're of below average intelligence, and you've let your own rhetoric get away from you; the intellectual equivalent of an eight year-old trying to direct a fire hose.

I am trying to figure out who you are directing this to. Your first few sentences give off the feeling that you are atheist but you end giving me the impression that you are not atheist.

Are you saying atheists are responsible for all the religions/beliefs in the world just becuase they didn't believe?

-Renee

Here's a scenario that could be possible. Maybe a stretch, but probably more likely than anything theists might come up with.

Once upon a time there was a tribe of primitive humans.  They knew certain things like lightning could hurt or kill them if they were unlucky enough to be struck by it.  There were many other things in the world that could harm them or be of benefit to them.  They went about their business everyday, always in a state of paranoia because they could not predict any of the bad or good things (abstracts they were probably trying to refine).

In this tribe there were several alpha males continually jockying for power among themselves.  One day a relatively minor player in this drama discovered a treatment with some roots that helped heal a wound or illness one of the other tribal members had.  He began experimenting and finding new herbs, etc that had healing powers.  He ultimately claimed special knowledge and powers and became a shaman (new position in tribes at this point in history).

As time passed the chief of the tribe became jealous or intimidated by the prestige the new shaman had built up and began to fear his position as chief might be in jeopardy.  He began plotting ways to bring the shaman down and started rumors about him.

The shaman, realizing he might lose favor with other members of the tribe began to think of ways to hold onto it.  One day it came to him, and he began talking about the world has having powers that were channeled through him because he was special.

Through the mellenia this "power" evolved into spirits and gods in order to keep a level of fear and awe in the members of the tribes.  Keeping them ignorant was also primary for the continued prestige and ultimately fear of the unknown (known only to the shaman) to gain power and control.  Eventually they set themselves up as priests and had their personal enforcers (lesser priests who were let in on the scam) who enforced the holy laws set up to keep people in line.

How's that for imagination?  Actually, it's probably been part of the plot for many fiction stories written about cavemen and such.  Hey, works for me.  It still comes down to lust for power and a good dose of evil.

no magilum, your wrong, as usual.  I submit WHOLE HEARTEDLY, that religious IDEAS are a MESS!!  and by YOUR own premise, you and your atheist ancestors take full responsibilty for it.

Brian37, do you proof read before you post?

The thing about if the BuyBull is wrong then all the religions were made up by atheists is a false dichotomy. Hinduism (for example) could be true. Christianity was almost certainly made up by Jews, not atheists. Same with other religions - many were made up by people who already believed a different one. Of course the first religions probably were made up by some atheist who happened to be delusional, but so what?

I may be a bad speller, but I know a poorly written book when I read one. If you are a Nazi about writting skills, you should bitch out the inept writers of the bible.

Talking donkeys, unicorns, talking snakes, ghostsperm, zombie gods surviving rigor mortis after 3 days. No character develpement, rambling  geneology with outragous claims of people being 900 years old and advocation of infantiside and genocide, all believed to be fact.

Go ahead and pick on my spelling all you want, I could care less. I am not working at a newspaper or magizine.

I am not the one who believes in Santa for adults. At least I have the sense to know the differance between fantacy and fact. 

Not only is your premise breathtakiingly inane, it's breathtakingly flawed. Think about the definition of the word "atheist" for a sec:

"One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods."

To deny or disbelieve a concept, doesn't the concept have to exist first? I can't deny or disbelieve in a concept until it is first posited, therefore, how could an "atheist" (One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.) possibly posit a non-existent concept? So no, moron, an atheist did not come up with The God Concept. As Brian37 pointed out earlier, the concept was born of ignorance.

(Oh, BTW Mr. Proof Reader Extraordinaire, I think you meant "sadistic", not "sidistic". Pointing out spelling errors in a debate: first sign that said "editor" has nothing of substance to contribute to the argument)

 A)Let's say for the sake of argument that you're right, and athiests (ie: those with no god belief. Regardless of if the word existed at the time, we can use it now to describe them then) did cause all of the world's religions. So what? Since nobody's positing that those ancient liars and deceivers are still alive, your proposition amounts to 'athiests caused the problem, now athiests are trying to fix it'.

So what the hell's your point?

B)Bull's probably pretty close, but the process doesn't necessarily have to have any intentional deception involved in the early stages. It's probably due to people striving to find answers, and coming up with the best explanations they could at the time; giants, monsters, spirits in the deep woods and high mountains... the deception comes later, and still doesn't have to be intentional, if those who begin to forge religions out of collections of folktales and  myths were deluding themselves as well, feeling that they truly were right and had some special understanding of things.

After all, Beatz, look at you. You claim to have a special understanding and truths you feel nobody else recognizes. And so with them: poor deluded victims of their own flawed search for the truth, slowly building up one mistake upon another, because they simply did not understand the underlying flaws.

Either way, I'm still left asking the question: So what?

We can't change the mistakes made in the past, but we can work to correct it now. 

 Beatz wrote,  "  Another great contribution by the Atheist."  -----        

 YUP, Jesus the Atheist , the bible canon is old poltics, read it's history and the Gnostic writtings ....

, what the fuck is wrong with you Beatz ? , as Jesus would say, "Get behind me Satan" , as scolding Peter ....

YEAH JESUS,  time out Beatz , get a grip,

Do your 40 days alone friend ..... poor miserable Beatz

BUMMER ..... how old are you anyway ?

I do like your vigor Peter, I mean Beatz .... WISE UP .....  a little more study friend, Jesus/Buddha would insist ....  

What I say doesnt make sense? Look who's talking zombiegod lover. 

He is not pissing on our shoes, he is merely pissing in the wind because of his delusion. No skin off my nose, I love having chewtoys to play with. I think the fact that he hasn't bolted after all the ammo we have shot at him says to me that we are getting to him. 

Speaking of arguing for the sake of arguing, has anyone noticed that the only thread that has been completely ignored is the one with actual knowledge in it -- the one where I posted several of the best books on the subject of where religion actually came from?

Looks like Beatz wasn't even interested in taking a break from the discussion for long enough to learn something, even when I linked straight to Amazon.  One click buying, Beatz!  You can have the book at your house in under a week, and then you could read it.  Then you would know something about the subject.

(I'm taking wagers... right now it's 10:1 that he'll ever demonstrate knowledge of this topic.)

Hamby, i saw the books dude, I dont know if i'll ever read them, but dont think your effort was a waste, i've just been working a lot. 

Brian37, I really wasn't talking about your spelling, a lot of people caught feelings off of that, that was not my intention at all.  I still think your a loser though.

And Dexter, i mean, johnny neutron.... sorry, Magilum.

A)  The inchoative treatise your cerebral cortex manufactured, was unequivocally inept of erudition...

B)  Blah, blah blahblah blah.

C)  How's your day going?

But seriously guys, i'm wrappin it up, so praise the atheist gods, beatz the delusion is finally leaving.  I had fun though.  Dont worry, I'll still refer to you guys as my atheist friends. 

They don't have any TV listings or close-ups of feet in them, so I doubt they're on the front of your queue.

Floors won't sweep themselves.

He'll get over it... somehow.

You're burning me with your knowledge of children's cartoon characters? Awesome.

Making my point about comprehension. Thanks for that.

I'll reciprocate by lumping you in with other idiots I've come across, abstracting you until you have no identity to me at all.

Actually Hambi, I am devistated. He started off equating us to mass murders. I am a bit dissapointed that I am merely a loser now. How can I barbaque a kitten and be a good heathen cootie spreader if I am merely a loser?

MOMMY......I WANT MY MOMMY! 

Beatz, you're missing the whole point, dude.

I, along with a few other perceptive folks, have pointed out that you insist on continuing this debate even though you obviously don't know a damn thing about it.  I've given you everything you need to learn about it.  If you want to debate it after you know something, that's fine, but right now, it just makes you look silly.

"I don't know anything, but I'm going to argue anyway!!!!"

Where's Cpt_Pineapple with the Waambulance?

Damn, dude.  That was fast! 

A few weeks ago, a house burned down in my neighborhood, and it took the fire department over 30 minutes to get there.  (The FD is exactly .7 miles from my house.)   You're in Canada, right?  Damn fine response time.