A challenge for the RRS [Trollville]

Christos
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A challenge for the RRS [Trollville]

I've raised this question on the forums before, and I'd like to ask it again. Why debate God and religion in the midst of human suffering? In my opinion , service to all of humankind is our most important responsibility. I think this responsibility goes beyond giving some money to an organization. We must all work to end poverty, hunger and disease. Why sit around debating when you could be helping those in need? I challenge the RRS to work as an Atheist humanitarian organization; using all their resources to fight suffering.

{MOD EDIT: Christos pulls same stunt here;

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/atheist_vs_theist/7847

}

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


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First, debating god and

First, debating god and religion does not prevent anyone from acting to help fight against suffering.

Second, are you sure that RSS members don't attempt to reduce suffering, either through their own actions or by supporting other organizations?

Third, some would say that reducing the influence of religion would aid in reducing human suffering (not necessarily my own view, but I believe it is the veiw of the RSS)


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Well, some may say 'LOL,

Well, some may say 'LOL, it's the religion that's the cause of these.' 

 This is actually part of why I argue about the secular reasons behind terrorist actions etc..

By focusing on the religion, you are missing their actual motivations which lies in the secular realm. 

 

Otherwise, what's the point of fixing U.S foriegn policy if it wouldn't help? (which it wouldn't if their actual motivations were religious..)


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What weren't you satisfied

What weren't you satisfied with last time you asked?  You got answers from damn near everybody.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Christos
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I'm sure many atheists are

I'm sure many atheists are committed to ending human suffering, and I respect them immensely. To a certain degree, aspects of world religion contribute significantly to the problem.

However, I also see that an organization dedicated to ending religion fails to battle more important world issues such as poverty, hunger, disease, famine, etc. Failing to act only adds to the problem of human suffering.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


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Hambydammit wrote: What

Hambydammit wrote:

What weren't you satisfied with last time you asked? You got answers from damn near everybody.

 

 

Link? 


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Christos wrote: Why debate

Christos wrote:
Why debate God and religion in the midst of human suffering? In my opinion , service to all of humankind is our most important responsibility.

Ending theism is the most worthy and moral public service anyone could perform.

 

Quote:
I think this responsibility goes beyond giving some money to an organization. We must all work to end poverty, hunger and disease. Why sit around debating when you could be helping those in need? I challenge the RRS to work as an Atheist humanitarian organization; using all their resources to fight suffering.

 

Challenge met: www.atheistvolunteers.org

 Instead of taking the easy way out we decided to do both.  Shall I close this thread now?

 

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  Cristos wrote: I've

 

Cristos wrote:
I've raised this question on the forums before, and I'd like to ask it again. Why debate God and religion in the midst of human suffering? [...] I challenge the RRS to work as an Atheist humanitarian organization; using all their resources to fight suffering.

If we broaden this to, say, eliminate the special pleading involved in asking atheists specifically, and evaluate all activity for its fulfillment of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, almost any activity in the first world -- aside from survival, possibly work, and charity -- would have to be considered frivolous.

 


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  RRS turns peoples brains

  RRS turns peoples brains on .... RRS is a world community awakening , and empowering. 

RRS is to the glory and celebration of Earth life.

Whatever happens , RRS has proudly been written into all eternity ....

When will we celebrate ? Why not now ?

  

  


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     Well one can make

     Well one can make the arguement for example, helping ending religious beliefs in africa, such as that of the catholic beliefs, could help ending suffering and poverty there, as suffering due to the beliefs that condoms will get you to hell, instead of helping stop the spread of aids, as the catholic pope has condemned the idea of using condoms, as well because of the disease millions are condemned to poverty due to again due to superstitions in that continent, that do not help those with AIDS, that's just one example as to why one should fight against religion. Then there are other examples of war which are perpetuated again and made more extreme due to the religious nature of the beliefs to which the followers adhere, such as somalia and rwanda, that although did not start exactly with religion, was continued and made even worse with religious ideas (rwanda catholic church and evangilical stating that killing tutsi was allowed by god because they were non believers, or because they had some how offended god and that the current politicians where there in place by god, so that good catholics had to follow and due what the goverment ordered to do against tutsi's, and in somalia it was muslims against christians in essence).

 

    Do you need more Christos?


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I'd challenge any

I'd challenge any faith-based organization to match what this secular one does: http://www.gatesfoundation.org/default.htm


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Also, like others have

Also, like others have pointed out, here is only the surface of what you can see.  There's really a lot of strong secular organizations out there that specialize in doing just what you're talking about.  I donate time and money to some of them when I can. 

I'd like to reverse the challenge as well.  What if every sunday morning all the people sitting in the churches singing, were instead out in the community, cooking for people, cleaning up the environment, rebuilding rundown communities, etc.  How many man-hours do you suppose that would be?   Does anyone have any estimate, even for just the U.S., of how much total time that would be?  I wouldn't be surprised if this number was in the billions of hours.   What could we fix then?  Smiling

 

Christos wrote:

However, I also see that an organization dedicated to ending religion fails to battle more important world issues such as poverty, hunger, disease, famine, etc. Failing to act only adds to the problem of human suffering.

Pushing back religion has its charm too.  Imagine how much suffering might disappear if it were possible to instantly pluck tribal religiosity from the middle east.  (or even JUST to curb "honor" killing) 

 


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Christos wrote: I'm sure

Christos wrote:

I'm sure many atheists are committed to ending human suffering, and I respect them immensely. To a certain degree, aspects of world religion contribute significantly to the problem.

However, I also see that an organization dedicated to ending religion fails to battle more important world issues such as poverty, hunger, disease, famine, etc. Failing to act only adds to the problem of human suffering.

This is basically the theist equivalent of asking why people study fossils instead of curing cancer.

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


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Sapient wrote:   Ending

Sapient wrote:

 

Ending theism is the most worthy and moral public service anyone could perform.

I highly disagree Brian. Please prove how removing a child's religous cultute in Africa is more important then feeding the child.

Like I said, I know that there are secular and atheist volunteers. I respect them immensely. However, I think that the RRS would better serve humanity by fighting poverty then by complaining about religion. 

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


Christos
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latincanuck, and

latincanuck, and stuntgibbon: I never said that religious organizations don't increase human suffering in many situations. What better reason for an vocally Atheist organization to pick up the slack? Actions are better then words.

 

 


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


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Christos wrote: Sapient

Christos wrote:
Sapient wrote:

Ending theism is the most worthy and moral public service anyone could perform.

I highly disagree Brian. Please prove how removing a child's religous cultute in Africa is more important then feeding the child.

Like I said, I know that there are secular and atheist volunteers. I respect them immensely. However, I think that the RRS would better serve humanity by fighting poverty then by complaining about religion. 

Do you think the same of every other activist group?


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Christos, what part of "We

Christos, what part of "We fight theism because it causes great suffering AND we run Atheistvolunteers.net because we want to pick up the slack" isn't good enough for you?

We could use some donations of time and money.  Why don't you head up a task force to try to get that for us instead of bitching at us for not doing enough?

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Christos
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Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:

Christos, what part of "We fight theism because it causes great suffering AND we run Atheistvolunteers.net because we want to pick up the slack" isn't good enough for you?

We could use some donations of time and money. Why don't you head up a task force to try to get that for us instead of bitching at us for not doing enough?

 

 The eliminating theism part. I think its a better idea to eliminate poverty and then work on religious belief. The poor need food, water, shelter, etc. Not a rant on the pitfalls of religion. 

And my friend, I would much rather donate to an organization that uses all of it's resources to fight poverty, hunger, disease. The RRS does not qualify in that category.  

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


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magilum wrote:

magilum wrote:

Do you think the same of every other activist group?

It depends 


magilum
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Christos wrote: magilum

Christos wrote:
magilum wrote:

Do you think the same of every other activist group?

It depends 

If they were helping fight anti-semitism in the media, would that be superfluous?

There are other extravagances in the world: doomed political campaigns, vanity film projects. The extravagances don't even have to be large. I make the choice one week to see a movie for $11 -- money that could have fed a family had I chosen to so direct it. Is that wrong? Do you direct every iota of your being toward other people's necessities?

Let's say we do limit our scope to organizations: how many others have you informed that their cause pales in comparison to alleviating disease and hunger?


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Christos wrote: magilum

Christos wrote:
magilum wrote:

Do you think the same of every other activist group?

It depends

 

On what?

I would say that theism does far more damage than a lot of diseases out there.  What percentage of funds and effort of the donated funds have to go to the actual cause to qualify for your 'worthy' scale? There are many recognized charities out there that don't need to provide much more than a couple percentage of their total funds to the actual cause to qualify.

Could you please provide an explicit list of what exactly it takes to qualify for being worthy of my time spent?

There is no questoin that the things that you mention need help, but there are many ways to go about helping.  Eliminating the Vatican for example would do wonders in the battle against AIDS in Africa.

Increasing the recognition and involvement of woman in all cultures would bring those cultures farther to the front of advancement since they would have a broader source of intelligence and number of helping helping to advance their societies.

The poor are the biggest supplier of funds to the church and many other religions.  By eliminating them it would increase the money in those communities and families.

Eliminating religions would eliminate strange religous biases against certain types of foods which would probably provide more meal options...stretching a bit on this one but probably some truth there.

Eliminating religions would mean we could take all of their buildings and effort spent on building their institutions and reinvest that time into building irrigation and better water supplies.

Eliminating the time people spend preaching and praying would mean more productive hours spent on earning money or other useful things.

Eliminating religion would allow some children who are currently denied education to have that exposure.  There are many children in the world denied education due to religous beliefs.

I could keep going, but I'm getting bored. 


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Christos

Christos wrote:
Hambydammit wrote:

Christos, what part of "We fight theism because it causes great suffering AND we run Atheistvolunteers.net because we want to pick up the slack" isn't good enough for you?

We could use some donations of time and money. Why don't you head up a task force to try to get that for us instead of bitching at us for not doing enough?

 

 The eliminating theism part. I think its a better idea to eliminate poverty and then work on religious belief. The poor need food, water, shelter, etc. Not a rant on the pitfalls of religion. 

And my friend, I would much rather donate to an organization that uses all of it's resources to fight poverty, hunger, disease. The RRS does not qualify in that category.  

 

How bout donating to www.EarthWard.org then?

 You know we see right through you on this right?  Good distraction attempt, forgive us if we don't trust the guy who believes in an invisible man in the sky. 

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Christos

Christos wrote:
Hambydammit wrote:

Christos, what part of "We fight theism because it causes great suffering AND we run Atheistvolunteers.net because we want to pick up the slack" isn't good enough for you?

We could use some donations of time and money. Why don't you head up a task force to try to get that for us instead of bitching at us for not doing enough?

 

The eliminating theism part. I think its a better idea to eliminate poverty and then work on religious belief. The poor need food, water, shelter, etc. Not a rant on the pitfalls of religion.

And my friend, I would much rather donate to an organization that uses all of it's resources to fight poverty, hunger, disease. The RRS does not qualify in that category.

Say the atheist/secular organization does set up shop where it's needed and starts trying to help with the problems you mentioned. The churches and clergy in that area (who are far more interested in keeping people poor, hungry, sick and dependent than their public face lets on) tells their well-conditioned flocks "If you go there for help, you'll burn in hell. Let us keep you where you're at and you'll go to heaven when you die.", we know where those flocks will go. That's why the RCC has been so helpful with the spread of AIDS in Africa - get them out of this life so they have something better to go to.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Christos wrote: Sapient

Christos wrote:
Sapient wrote:

 

Ending theism is the most worthy and moral public service anyone could perform.

I highly disagree Brian. Please prove how removing a child's religous cultute in Africa is more important then feeding the child.

Like I said, I know that there are secular and atheist volunteers. I respect them immensely. However, I think that the RRS would better serve humanity by fighting poverty then by complaining about religion.

Yea, we shouldnt complain about abortion clinic bombers or airline hijackers who kill because god told them so. We shouldnt complain about our science classes in public schools being turned into Marvel Comic "POOF" "god did it". We should never point out that human flesh does not survive rigor mortis after 3 days. HOW DARE WE POINT OUT REALITY TO PEOPLE!

If you say you respect RRS and their supporters like me, then be brave and debate us, but you are showing a lack of respect expecting RRS to not make waves. That is what RRS and supporters like me do here. We blaspheme and are blunt, BECAUSE WE WANT BETTER FOR HUMANITY, than ancient fairy tales.

If I came up to you and said, "I can fart a Lamborginni out of my butt" and litterally believed it, and tried to convince you of it, your proper response should be, "That is absurd and rediculous", if you dont do that, that is a lack of respect to the mind of your fellow human.

What the theist does when we point out reality to them, is mistake it for a personall attack on them, which it is not. It is pointing out the bad logic they use to justify absurd beliefs.

Theist, "Allah picks the sex of the baby"

Atheist, "No, the xy cromisome determines that"

Theist, "YOU HATE ME"

Atheist, "No, I am saying we know what determines the sex of the baby. Neither Thor, or Isis or Allah do that, simple biology explains the sex of the baby without magic"

Theist, "YOU HATE ME"

Now, show RRS some respect and understand that the founders and board supporters like me have valid objections to illogical claims and blasphemy and bluntness dont need to be confused with a personal attack when the claims and bad use of logic are what we are attacking.

Atheist, "You are about to  run that stop sign"

Theist, "No I am not"

Atheist, "Yes you are"

Theist, "Why dont you leave me alone and let me drive the way I want?"

Atheist, "BECAUSE YOU ARE ABOUT TO RUN THAT STOP SIGN!"

Theist, " YOU HATE ME" 

Not in the slightest do I think RRS or it's members have some sort of utopian agenda to use goverment to force the end of religion. 6 billion people will never agree on all issues all the time.

However, as a supporter of RRS I can safely say that they as well as I do believe that by exposing humanity to alturnitives to ancient myth and exposing the absurd magical claims these religions claim, people will want to voluntarly give up on it because they will see, like we do here, see superstition for what it is, an unessary crutch and a roadblock to any future data that could open doors for the improvement of humanity.

Just as it was good for humans to give up on the idea that the sun was a thinking entity(The Egyptians)....Just as it was good to give up on the idea that Thor made lightning.....We believe that giving up on claims of disimbodied beings knocking up girls and surviving rigor mortis, when humanity gives up on these absurd claims, they can free themselves to improve the human condition rather than cling to a past rooted in myth.

Dont make the mistake of assuming we hate our fellow humans because they believe. The Christian says, "Love the sinner not the sin". Atheists could have their own version without magical proclimation, "Love the theists, not their claims"

I am capable of loving theists and it is absurd to think that we are out to create a facist genocidal government. We are simply out to get people to think without being parrots who are puppits with hands up their backs.

"Question with boldness even the existance of God, for if there be one, surely he would pay more homage to reason than to that of blindfolded fear" Thomas Jefferson, who BTW also equated the birth and death of Jesus to Minerva being born out of the brain of Jupiter.

If you do at least one thing on this board, consider the thought that maybe RRS and supporters like me have something positive to offer theists other than superstion. Maybe it is YOU that has something to learn from atheists. Be brave and challenge yourself to think outside your book, if anything, you may come out of it with a better understanding of atheists, even if you dont deconvert.


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stuntgibbon wrote: I'd

stuntgibbon wrote:
I'd challenge any faith-based organization to match what this secular one does: http://www.gatesfoundation.org/default.htm

 

The size of their endowment makes it hard for ANY organization to match their work. 


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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

RRS turns peoples brains on .... RRS is a world community awakening , and empowering.

RRS is to the glory and celebration of Earth life.

Whatever happens , RRS has proudly been written into all eternity ....

When will we celebrate ? Why not now ?

Aye! All hail the messiah! 

This sounds familiar... A lot like... Religion... If someone argues that Atheism is not a religion, someone else will use your quotes to debunk the claim.

The guy at http://godisimaginary.com said in one of his videos:

"Your religious beliefs hurt you personally and hurt us as a species because they are delusional. The belief in any "god" is complete nonsense."

I believe the downfall of religion will be a very important time in the history of mankind. It will prove that our attitudes and state as an intelligent species will get better and more advanced. In the next 500 years, religion will be nothing but a bad memory of the primitive past cultures. Just like slavery.

 

Trust and believe in no god, but trust and believe in yourself.


Brian37
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Larty wrote: I AM GOD AS

Larty wrote:
I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

RRS turns peoples brains on .... RRS is a world community awakening , and empowering.

RRS is to the glory and celebration of Earth life.

Whatever happens , RRS has proudly been written into all eternity ....

When will we celebrate ? Why not now ?

Aye! All hail the messiah!

This sounds familiar... A lot like... Religion... If someone argues that Atheism is not a religion, someone else will use your quotes to debunk the claim.

The guy at http://godisimaginary.com said in one of his videos:

"Your religious beliefs hurt you personally and hurt us as a species because they are delusional. The belief in any "god" is complete nonsense."

I believe the downfall of religion will be a very important time in the history of mankind. It will prove that our attitudes and state as an intelligent species will get better and more advanced. In the next 500 years, religion will be nothing but a bad memory of the primitive past cultures. Just like slavery.

 

To reach that goal where gods are a bad memory of a primitive past, it cannot be done via physical force via government. The only viable way is to use logic and reason and science to appeal to people so that they will want voluntaraly give up on superstition.

I make no bones about dispising magical claims of virgin births or 72 virgins and class such absurdities in the same catigory as Peter Pan and Thor. But I make no illusions that the atheists goal is one of facism where theists are opressed. On the contrary, the more light that is put on theism, the more open we are in debating it, the more obvious it will be to more and more  people that they believe in hocus pokus fiction and will want to give up on the idea on their own. No force by atheists is needed to show the absurdity of hocus pokus claims. Absurditys do well being obvious, when uttered, all by themselves without our help.

Simply put, I view my criticism and blasphmy as being the same as finding out Santa wasnt real. My world did not end and my life went on,. That realization was hard on me as a kid for a few weeks, but I am much better off as an adult without it. I am positive that humanity can do better than clinging to primitive superstition. 

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Brian37 wrote: To reach

Brian37 wrote:

To reach that goal where gods are a bad memory of a primitive past, it cannot be done via physical force via government. The only viable way is to use logic and reason and science to appeal to people so that they will want voluntaraly give up on superstition.

<snip> 

But I make no illusions that the atheists goal is one of facism where theists are opressed.

 What I fear is not that atheism will become fascist, but fascists will become atheists. One of the things religion has provided is a vehicle to gain and maintain power. There is nothing to prevent the same dynamic with atheism.

Humanity will ALWAYS need to remain vigilant against its capacity for tyranny. 


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Christos, How can you

Christos,

How can you justify posting on this forum when it would be a better use of your time fighting to end world hunger, poverty and suffering?

I'm not being sarcastic.


Christos
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Sapient wrote: How bout

Sapient wrote:

How bout donating to www.EarthWard.org then?

You know we see right through you on this right? Good distraction attempt, forgive us if we don't trust the guy who believes in an invisible man in the sky.

Thanks, but I already have orgs right now.

I wouldn't assume anything about what I believe without asking me. I'm still technically agnostic.

And Brian, you still didn't answer me before: Please prove how disproving a  child's religious culture is more important  then  feeding the child.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


Brian37
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wavefreak wrote: Brian37

wavefreak wrote:
Brian37 wrote:

To reach that goal where gods are a bad memory of a primitive past, it cannot be done via physical force via government. The only viable way is to use logic and reason and science to appeal to people so that they will want voluntaraly give up on superstition.

<snip>

But I make no illusions that the atheists goal is one of facism where theists are opressed.

What I fear is not that atheism will become fascist, but fascists will become atheists. One of the things religion has provided is a vehicle to gain and maintain power. There is nothing to prevent the same dynamic with atheism.

Humanity will ALWAYS need to remain vigilant against its capacity for tyranny.

You dont fight tyrany with tyrany. I dont know about all the atheists on this planet, but the ones I know would NOT put up with any facism, be it a theocracy or Stalinistic.

The facist state is one party or one person rule, and its abundance of theism or lack of theism is not the issue. It is that facist ruling body of a given society that seeks to squash ANY compitition to it's power. Religion is a great motivator for power grabs.

Saudi Arabia is ruled by a facist government and one sectarian rule by Sunnis. They opress shiite minorities along with anyone outside of Islam, including atheists.

You have nothing to fear Wave, from people like me nor most of the atheists I know. We value human individuality and can agree while we want to see the end of theism, we also know that a facist government is not only opressive, but impractical to getting theists to want to give up on their theism.

Changing one's position cannot be beaten into you phyisically. I can however, like I said, ridicule your claims, blaspheme your claims and use logic to show you the error in your claims. But I would never recomend atheists seek political power to use it to opress religious people. Our position on it's own is strong enough to make a rational appeal without a goverment gun to your head. 

Your fears are unfounded. I may stand in oposition to any deity claim. But I do have human empathy that one can only change their position voluntarly either way. I cant force myself on you anymore than you can force yourself on me.

I vehematly hold the position that all current and past god claims are superstition, like voodoo dolls and bigfoot and Thor. But I am not delusionally utopian thinking that a facist state is the way to cure humanity from theism. Logical appeal and solid science can dispell bad claims without any kind of force and can show people errors in logic so that they will want to voluntarly give up on myth.

Everyone wants to be free and I DO have empathy for that. But I also have a voice myself and have the same rights to compete in the free market as any theist. I think the more people study their holy books objectively without bias, the more they can see that it is nothing more than an ancient version of Harry Potter. I dont need to stick a gun to anyone's head. I think the rediculous magical claims of holy books do a good job of debunking themselves when faced with the light of scrutiny.

I do recomend to Christians for example, look in Genisis and see the lack of evidence other than "god did it", of HOW "POOF" dirt magically turned into bone and flesh. I do recomend people look at their bible and see that it treats the sun and moon as seperate sources of light, when the reality is that the moon reflects the sunlight.

I recomend that they see the absurdity of bears mauling children for calling an old man "baldy". I recomend they read the story of Lot giving up his own daughter for sex. I recomend they read the infantiside and genocide allowed by their claimed being.

All most Christians get is "love thy neighbor" "Jesus died for you". They cherry pick ignoring all the OT and Revolation violent orgy of "god's chozen people" slaughtering each other to decide whom daddy loves best. The fictional diptictions of this horrific violence is a reflection of the tribalistic socieities of that time.

Life expectancy was much shorter and clinging to the club was much more important than it is today. The literary style of writing of the polytheists and monotheists of that time reflected kings so of course their respective god(s) were autocrats expecting you(the human) to obey without question, just like the rulers in ancient times. 

The bible is not only a poorly written book, the magical claims are laughable and should be rejected just like Thor. Add to it the horrible prospect of this head character beating the shit out of you for eternity for not kissing his ass, is morally repugnant and tyranical.

I wont deny any Christian access to this book. I do recomend they read it and see it for what it is, a book of ancient myth, just like the Reg Vedas and Ugartic Text and Egyptian Book of The Dead. 

 

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Christos wrote: Sapient

Christos wrote:

Sapient wrote:

How bout donating to www.EarthWard.org then?

You know we see right through you on this right? Good distraction attempt, forgive us if we don't trust the guy who believes in an invisible man in the sky.

Thanks, but I already have orgs right now.

I wouldn't assume anything about what I believe without asking me. I'm still technically agnostic.

And Brian, you still didn't answer me before: Please prove how disproving a child's religious culture is more important then feeding the child.

And you missed mine - what good could an atheist organization do for people when the churches go around threatening their followers with damnation if they take that assistance?  

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Brian37 wrote:   If you

Brian37 wrote:

 

If you say you respect RRS and their supporters like me, then be brave and debate us, but you are showing a lack of respect expecting RRS to not make waves. That is what RRS and supporters like me do here. We blaspheme and are blunt, BECAUSE WE WANT BETTER FOR HUMANITY, than ancient fairy tales.

I have no problem if you want to blaspheme and be blunt about it. I just disagree that ranting about religion is better for humanity then serving the poor and suffering in our midst. 

 

Brian37 wrote:


Dont make the mistake of assuming we hate our fellow humans because they believe. The Christian says, "Love the sinner not the sin". Atheists could have their own version without magical proclimation, "Love the theists, not their claims"

If you do at least one thing on this board, consider the thought that maybe RRS and supporters like me have something positive to offer theists other than superstion. Maybe it is YOU that has something to learn from atheists. Be brave and challenge yourself to think outside your book, if anything, you may come out of it with a better understanding of atheists, even if you dont deconvert.


I wouldn't make assumptions about what I believe. I certainly don't live my life by the Bible. I live by my own saying, "Love all people." This requires action and not indifference in the face of human suffering.  

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jcgadfly wrote: And you

jcgadfly wrote:

And you missed mine - what good could an atheist organization do for people when the churches go around threatening their followers with damnation if they take that assistance?

Please stop making assumptions abot what I believe or how I act. I do not go to church. I also don't believe in eternal damnation.  

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


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jcgadfly wrote: Say the

jcgadfly wrote:

Say the atheist/secular organization does set up shop where it's needed and starts trying to help with the problems you mentioned. The churches and clergy in that area (who are far more interested in keeping people poor, hungry, sick and dependent than their public face lets on) tells their well-conditioned flocks "If you go there for help, you'll burn in hell. Let us keep you where you're at and you'll go to heaven when you die.", we know where those flocks will go. That's why the RCC has been so helpful with the spread of AIDS in Africa - get them out of this life so they have something better to go to.

So your answer is to do nothing. 

I also would say that you shouldn't make blanket statements about the actions of all religious orgs at work throughout the world without proof that they all threaten hellfire to their follwers.  

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

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Christos wrote: jcgadfly

Christos wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:

And you missed mine - what good could an atheist organization do for people when the churches go around threatening their followers with damnation if they take that assistance?

Please stop making assumptions abot what I believe or how I act. I do not go to church. I also don't believe in eternal damnation.

I didn't make any assumptions about you - I asked a question about how you would expect an atheist organization to work around the churches' forbidding and threatening their followers from taking their help because they're "evil" and "godless".

Please don't put words in my mouth - that just invites a case of verbal whoop-ass that I'm in too good of a mood to open right now. 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Christos is right, guys. 

Christos is right, guys.  The only thing important in the entire world is ending poverty.  We'll be closing the website later today.  For the rest of the afternoon, we're also going to be contacting all of the organizations we can find who sponsor art, music, and any other liberal art project.  Human poverty is the worst problem in the world, and we ought to ignore everything else until every last person on earth is above the poverty line.

Once we eliminate all the funding for art, we're going to go after the manufacturers of goods.  It's plain old wood furniture for everyone to sit on.  Cushions are a luxury we can't afford in a world where there's poverty.  The internet will be shut down later this week, as 99.9% of its content is not used for fighting poverty.

The CEO of Amazon.com has just called to tell me that they will also be shutting down, since reading is superfluous in a world where there's poverty.  All the money that was going to go to books is now going to go to helping the poor.

The ACLU has recognized that fighting for the rights of people unjustly punished or discriminated against is an unworthy goal so long as there is poverty.   They will be ending operations.

In short, I can see that Christos is not just airing a beef against us fighting religion with a thinly (and transparently) veiled facade of helping the poor.  No, Christos is way too smart for that.  He recognizes that all goals outside of alleviating poverty are completely superfluous.  It's completely impossible that pursuing any other goal, no matter how worthy it might seem, will do any good at all, for poverty trumps everything.  

Thanks for the support, guys.  I won't be on anymore, because I've donated all my money to helping the poor.

 

 

 

P.S... can anyone spare a little change?  I need some food.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:

Christos is right, guys. The only thing important in the entire world is ending poverty.

I thought the only thing important was curing cancer. I stand corrected. 

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


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Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:

Christos is right, guys. The only thing important in the entire world is ending poverty. We'll be closing the website later today.

 

I never said it was the only important thing Hamby. I only stated that ending poverty is significantly more important then complaining about religion. You shouldn't close down the website....just modify it as an atheist website entirely dedicated to ending human suffering. Smiling 

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

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JeremiahSmith

JeremiahSmith wrote:
Hambydammit wrote:

Christos is right, guys. The only thing important in the entire world is ending poverty.

I thought the only thing important was curing cancer. I stand corrected.

Funny how ending theism might go a long way to solve those problems.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Christos

Christos wrote:
Hambydammit wrote:

Christos is right, guys. The only thing important in the entire world is ending poverty. We'll be closing the website later today.

 

I never said it was the only important thing Hamby. I only stated that ending poverty is significantly more important then complaining about religion. You shouldn't close down the website....just modify it as an atheist website entirely dedicated to ending human suffering. Smiling 

Did you plan on answering my questions? 


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Quote: I never said it was

Quote:
I never said it was the only important thing Hamby. I only stated that ending poverty is significantly more important then complaining about religion. You shouldn't close down the website....just modify it as an atheist website entirely dedicated to ending human suffering. Smiling

Yeah, whatever Christos.  The little smiley doesn't hide the fact that you've just admitted everything I was saying.  You don't disparage the fact that we're not focused on ending human poverty.  You disparage the fact that we fight religion.  You're ok with other organizations who do things they consider a high goal, but not us.

Stuff a sock with it.  We think this is incredibly important, and we've demonstrated, over and over, exactly what harm religion does.

Oh, and stuff a sock in your comment that we're just complaining about religion.  If you haven't noticed, we are incredibly active behind the scenes, and for that matter in front of them, in trying to do much, much more than complain.  We're doing our best to end the power of religion in people's lives and in government.  

Screw you for trying to belittle us by using such a condescending description of what we do.

 

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Hambydammit wrote: Yeah,

Hambydammit wrote:

Yeah, whatever Christos. The little smiley doesn't hide the fact that you've just admitted everything I was saying. You don't disparage the fact that we're not focused on ending human poverty. You disparage the fact that we fight religion. You're ok with other organizations who do things they consider a high goal, but not us.

Stuff a sock with it. We think this is incredibly important, and we've demonstrated, over and over, exactly what harm religion does.

Oh, and stuff a sock in your comment that we're just complaining about religion. If you haven't noticed, we are incredibly active behind the scenes, and for that matter in front of them, in trying to do much, much more than complain. We're doing our best to end the power of religion in people's lives and in government.

Screw you for trying to belittle us by using such a condescending description of what we do.

 

I have lots of problems with religion as well......too many to name. Many times, religion contributes to suffering (although countless religious orgs do an excellent job of curbing poverty).

I care much more about action then belief. So c'mon Hamby, think about whats really important. 

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

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magilum wrote:    

magilum wrote:


    There are other extravagances in the world: doomed political campaigns, vanity film projects. The extravagances don't even have to be large. I make the choice one week to see a movie for $11 -- money that could have fed a family had I chosen to so direct it. Is that wrong? Do you direct every iota of your being toward other people's necessities?

Let's say we do limit our scope to organizations: how many others have you informed that their cause pales in comparison to alleviating disease and hunger?

 I'm not perfect magilum. I do take every expense seriously, and try to eliminate un-necessary spending, like paying 11 dollars to see a movie. 

I was hoping that this organization would be more open to the idea of committing itself to the poor. Maybe I was wrong to think that. 

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

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Christos wrote: I'm not

Christos wrote:

I'm not perfect magilum. I do take every expense seriously, and try to eliminate un-necessary spending, like paying 11 dollars to see a movie.

I was hoping that this organization would be more open to the idea of committing itself to the poor. Maybe I was wrong to think that.

1. How can you justify posting on this forum when it would be a better use of your time fighting to end world hunger, poverty and suffering?

2. Should any organization exist that does not commit itself to helping the poor?


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Christos wrote: magilum

Christos wrote:
magilum wrote:


    There are other extravagances in the world: doomed political campaigns, vanity film projects. The extravagances don't even have to be large. I make the choice one week to see a movie for $11 -- money that could have fed a family had I chosen to so direct it. Is that wrong? Do you direct every iota of your being toward other people's necessities?

Let's say we do limit our scope to organizations: how many others have you informed that their cause pales in comparison to alleviating disease and hunger?

 I'm not perfect magilum. I do take every expense seriously, and try to eliminate un-necessary spending, like paying 11 dollars to see a movie. 

I was hoping that this organization would be more open to the idea of committing itself to the poor. Maybe I was wrong to think that. 

You still haven't answered my question regarding other organizations. Why this one in particular?


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Christos wrote: magilum

Christos wrote:
magilum wrote:


There are other extravagances in the world: doomed political campaigns, vanity film projects. The extravagances don't even have to be large. I make the choice one week to see a movie for $11 -- money that could have fed a family had I chosen to so direct it. Is that wrong? Do you direct every iota of your being toward other people's necessities?

Let's say we do limit our scope to organizations: how many others have you informed that their cause pales in comparison to alleviating disease and hunger?

I'm not perfect magilum. I do take every expense seriously, and try to eliminate un-necessary spending, like paying 11 dollars to see a movie.

I was hoping that this organization would be more open to the idea of committing itself to the poor. Maybe I was wrong to think that.

Again, such an organization (this one or another) would have to battle the established churches who are filling their congregations with crap in order to be beneficial.

Not going to get away from battling theism/religion no matter what. 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Don't worry Fish, I won't

Don't worry Fish, I won't be around much longer. Just ask Hamby. After this thread ends, I'll disappear for months.

I chose this organization over others becasue I hoped that Atheists here would see the importance of ending human suffering instead of discussing God and religion. 

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

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Cristos wrote: I'm not

Cristos wrote:
I'm not perfect magilum. I do take every expense seriously, and try to eliminate un-necessary spending, like paying 11 dollars to see a movie.

That was my example, since movies are my major interest. For you it might be something else. If you apply your standard uniformly, any effort or expense not directed toward raising the station of another to at least your own is a callous extravagance.


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magilum wrote: any effort

magilum wrote:

any effort or expense not directed toward raising the station of another to at least your own is a callous extravagance.

Bingo 

 

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Christos wrote: Don't

Christos wrote:

Don't worry Fish, I won't be around much longer. Just ask Hamby. After this thread ends, I'll disappear for months.

I chose this organization over others becasue I hoped that Atheists here would see the importance of ending human suffering instead of discussing God and religion. 

So if it doesn't jump at your ultimatum, then they don't care -- is that it? You're committing bifurcation by suggesting that this is the dilemma we face; obviously we're all free to give to charity independently, or be part of other efforts, without abandoning this one. You then admit to your special pleading -- this organization, in particular, should abandon its goal while others would fit your standard of extravagance if it were applied honestly.

My impression of you has gone way downhill Cristos. You're a dishonest motherfucker.