"23 Minutes in Hell"

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"23 Minutes in Hell"

Here's a man who wrote a book about his experience in hell. Apparently he spent 23 minutes there before God pulled him out. He believes that hell is located beneath the earth's surface because he talks about "people up on the surface of the earth." His book titled, "23 Minutes in Hell" is on the Christian book list at Beliefnet.com.

Here's some excerpts from the book by Bill Weise:

 

Author Bill Weise wrote:
I pleaded for mercy, but they had none—absolutely no mercy. They seemed to be incapable of it. They were pure evil. No mercy existed in that place. Mercy is from God in heaven.

The mental anguish I felt was indescribable. Asking for mercy from such evil only seemed to heighten their desire to torment me more.

I was conscious of the fact that there was no fluid coming from my wounds. No blood, no water, nothing. At this time, I did not stop to wonder why. I was extremely nauseous from the terrible, foul stench coming from these creatures. It was absolutely disgusting, foul, and rotten. It was, by far, the most putrid smells I have ever encountered. If you could take every rotten thing you can imagine, such as an open sewer, rotten meat, spoiled eggs, sour milk, dead rotting animal flesh, and sulfur, and magnify it a thousand times, you might come close. This is not an exaggeration. The odor was actually extremely toxic, and that alone should have killed me.

Instinctively, I just knew that some of the things I experienced were a thousand times worse than what would be possible on the earth's surface—things such as the odors mentioned, the strength of the demons, the loudness of the screams, the dryness, and the loneliness felt.

Somehow I managed to move a bit and dragged myself across the ground toward the barred door. I couldn't see, but I remembered the direction of the door that had been left open. I finally made it to the door and crawled out of the cell. Apparently, the creatures allowed me to crawl out without stopping me.

As soon as I exited the cell, my first instinct was to get as far away as possible. Again, I desperately wanted to run. All I could think of was to get up onto my feet. However, every move to get up took great effort. I remember wondering, Why is this so difficult? After tremendous exertion, I was finally able to stand. I was thoroughly exhausted and, at the same time, very frustrated at how hard simple movement had become. Although I was now outside the cell, I could not run, and fear continued to bind itself around me as a snake constricting its prey.

I was horrified as I heard the screams of an untold multitude of people crying out in torment. It was absolutely deafening. The terror-filled screams seemed to go right through me, penetrating my very being. I once heard about a television special where a news reporter spent the night in a prison just to experience prison life firsthand. The prisoners were crying, moaning, and yelling all night long. He stated that he couldn't sleep because of all the noise. This place where I now stood was far, far worse.

Through the panic and the deafening noise, I struggled to gather my thoughts. I'm in hell! This is a real place, and I'm actually here! I frantically tried to understand, but it was just so inconceivable. Not me, I'm a good person, I thought. The fear was so intense I couldn't bear it, but again, I couldn't die. I knew that most people up on the surface of the earth did not believe or even know that there was a whole world going on down here. They wouldn't believe it. But here it existed, and it was all too real. This place was so terrifying, so intense, and so hostile that it would be impossible for me to exaggerate the horror.

 

Question: If hell is below us in the earth, aren't the oil companies who drill for oil taking a chance on poking Satan in the head?

 

 

Frosty's coming back someday. Will you be ready?


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I wanted to know why you

I wanted to know why you guys don't think there is a really God, but americans go through the day gasping (oh my God) all day, I just wanted to know why that is, because some of the points you guys have made, you have said that there is no God, we are all God, the grand canyon was from the 6 million years of the earth moving, and that there was no flood.  If you guys have ever seen a rain bow, God said that, That a Rain bow is his promis that there will never be a flood that covered the earth again. 


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God_is_all_power wrote:I

God_is_all_power wrote:

I wanted to know why you guys don't think there is a really God, but americans go through the day gasping (oh my God) all day, I just wanted to know why that is, because some of the points you guys have made, you have said that there is no God, we are all God, the grand canyon was from the 6 million years of the earth moving, and that there was no flood.  If you guys have ever seen a rain bow, God said that, That a Rain bow is his promis that there will never be a flood that covered the earth again. 

Hrm?  There may be something that may be close enough to the concept of what humans call a god to call it such.  However we have no evidence for such an entity existing.  Forgive us for being skeptical.  However the Abrahamic versions of god are rather amusing parodies.  There is no way they are real.  Sorry to bust the bubble.

The global flood?  lol  That's amusing.  1) we need 10 times as much H2O that is currently on the planet for a global flood to happen.  2) If we had that much H2O on the planet our atmosphere would be so heavy that you, I, every multicellular creature that lives anywhere on the planet would be crushed to a fine paste. 3) Since water vapor is the number one greenhouse gas, having that much H2O on Earth would heat up the atmosphere so intensely that we would all boil to completely sterilized mush.

Do you think it never rained before this mythical flood?  Rain and rainbows were all over the place even before the Black Sea reconnected with the Mediterranean that caused the great flooding that so many folk stories describe as global in scale.  Grow up and read something educational.

 

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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The main reason why we

The main reason why we aren't dead from becoming paste is because, The power of God is all around us he is the all seeing eye he created us, and he is the creator of this earth that we live on.  God made the earth, he made Adam and Eve, Adam an Eve Sinned because they ate the fruit from the forbidden tree, got curses the earth, and the whole world was full of sin, God said to Noah, "Build a boat, take two of every animal, one male, one female," Noah does so, and God flooded the earth. God had had removed the water from the earth,  you may say yeah there isn't much evidence to back up the Bible, but if you where a Christan you would believe, but you aren't so you guys will make up crazy things like we came from apes, evolution, and the santa and the tooth fairy are alive, see it is all made up.  There are some close things that might like the grand canyon thing.  But if you new God and that he is the real creator, you will see, and  I hope that you all do some day come and see that there is a God.  So why don't you read the Bible.


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God_is_all_Power wrote:The

God_is_all_Power wrote:

The main reason why we aren't dead from becoming paste is because, The power of God is all around us he is the all seeing eye he created us, and he is the creator of this earth that we live on.  God made the earth, he made Adam and Eve, Adam an Eve Sinned because they ate the fruit from the forbidden tree, got curses the earth, and the whole world was full of sin, God said to Noah, "Build a boat, take two of every animal, one male, one female," Noah does so, and God flooded the earth. God had had removed the water from the earth,  you may say yeah there isn't much evidence to back up the Bible, but if you where a Christan you would believe, but you aren't so you guys will make up crazy things like we came from apes, evolution, and the santa and the tooth fairy are alive, see it is all made up.  There are some close things that might like the grand canyon thing.  But if you new God and that he is the real creator, you will see, and  I hope that you all do some day come and see that there is a God.  So why don't you grow up and read the Bible.

*grins* I was a christian for the first 30 years of my life.  I have read the bible.  I've actually read it more often since I have realized it is full of shit than before.  I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal saviour when I was seven.  I was at church every Sunday morning, evening, and Wednesday evening for sermon.  My parents believed I would be a preacher or a missionary when I was young.  I know the bible upside down and across.  For Example...

It says that bats are birds, that rabbits chew cud, and that insects have four legs.  God can do anything, yet he can not look on sin, nor forgive us unless Jesus suffered a grisly fate for our sins.  God knows everything yet he asks questions all the time in the bible.  "Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou?"

"Job 21:24 His breasts are full of milk,…"    Urhm….what?

"Job 39:9 Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by the crib?"   A freaking unicorn.

Actually just read the entire book of Job.  Satan and God act like good buddies making bets on how faithful Job is to God.  God lets the devil slaughter his entire family as a test.  But that’s unusual.  Usually good ol’ god did all the slaughter.  Man, woman, and child.  Entire cities and nations. 

And if god is a good god, well, why send say…the Buddhists to hell for an eternity?  God can do anything and everything.  And he’s a really good guy.  But if you don’t follow him you’ll BURN FOREVER.

God on one hand has no limitations placed on him.  He can do anything he wants.  However he is "forced" to make a horrible ultra painful place to put people that don't follow him and he is also "forced" to sacrifice his only begotten son to save us poor, pathetic humans.  Who or what is forcing the all-powerful being to be boxed in by these things?

Silly christian...I know more about your religion than you do.  I was born and raised a christian.  And I have obviously studied it more than you have.  That's why I'm an atheist and you are still a believer.

 

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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God_is_all_Power wrote:The

 

God_is_all_Power wrote:

The main reason why we aren't dead from becoming paste is because, The power of God is all around us he is the all seeing eye he created us, and he is the creator of this earth that we live on.  God made the earth, he made Adam and Eve, Adam an Eve Sinned because they ate the fruit from the forbidden tree, got curses the earth, and the whole world was full of sin, God said to Noah, "Build a boat, take two of every animal, one male, one female," Noah does so, and God flooded the earth. God had had removed the water from the earth,  you may say yeah there isn't much evidence to back up the Bible, but if you where a Christan you would believe, but you aren't so you guys will make up crazy things like we came from apes, evolution, and the santa and the tooth fairy are alive, see it is all made up.  There are some close things that might like the grand canyon thing.  But if you new God and that he is the real creator, you will see, and  I hope that you all do some day come and see that there is a God.  So why don't you grow up and read the Bible.

 

Why don't you grow up and read the Koran/the Vedas/the book of Mormon/Dianetics, the modern science of mental health/the Buddhist Sutras?

 

 

Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first.


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I once, in the middle of

I once, in the middle of the night, found I was being chased through a dark forest by werewolves. I know it was real because I could smell their fur and feel their breath. I experienced real mental anguish and fear, terror. I heard their shrieking howls with my own ears. I saw their hideous fangs with my own eyes.

Therefore, I conclude that werewolves are real. I'm going to write a book about it and everyone should believe me because what I felt and heard and saw as so real to me!

"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher


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God_is_all_Power wrote:God

God_is_all_Power wrote:

God made the earth, he made Adam and Eve, Adam an Eve Sinned because they ate the fruit from the forbidden tree, got curses the earth, and the whole world was full of sin,

I never quite got this argument. If God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and so perfect, and created humans in his image, why would he have created humans so screwed up as to even be capable of sin in the first place? If he was all-knowing then he would have known ahead of time that Eve was going to eat the damn fruit so why did he put it there in the first place, unless he actually wanted her to screw up (in which case he's not all-loving, as claimed...he's an ass hole)?

And don't give me that "God works in mysterious ways" crap. What a cop-out.

"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher


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Theia goddess and joyess

Theia goddess and joyess multiple orgasims !  I like that. I AM a godly MAN .....


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The Flood...

Being a general geek, and (at the time) professionally interested in hydrolics and heat transfer, I wondered how much caloric input would be required to get THAT much water into the atmosphere so that it could rain enough th flood the earth.

By my calculations, the people and critters of Noah's time didn't need to worry about drowning as they had already been burned to cinders by the energy required to evaporate sufficiant liquid water to do the job...

This, and the fact that there is not now, nor has there ever been enough water on the earth (even counting the icecaps) to effect a flood as described in the bable, leads me to state with utmost confidence that the biblical flood story is so much processed bovine fodder.

LC >;-}>

 

 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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The worst thing about

The worst thing about God_is_all_power is I could have been him two years ago.I'd like to take this oppurtunity to be extremley thankful I became an atheist

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Louis_Cypher wrote:Being a

Louis_Cypher wrote:

Being a general geek, and (at the time) professionally interested in hydrolics and heat transfer, I wondered how much caloric input would be required to get THAT much water into the atmosphere so that it could rain enough th flood the earth.

By my calculations, the people and critters of Noah's time didn't need to worry about drowning as they had already been burned to cinders by the energy required to evaporate sufficiant liquid water to do the job...

This, and the fact that there is not now, nor has there ever been enough water on the earth (even counting the icecaps) to effect a flood as described in the bable, leads me to state with utmost confidence that the biblical flood story is so much processed bovine fodder.

LC >;-}>

*Looks around*  Well, crap.  I can't find the book's whereabouts at the moment but have you read the book "Noah's Flood", Louis?  It talks about that exact thing.  It is mainly about how researchers discovered evidence for the Black Sea turning from a huge inland lake to being reconnected to the Mediterranean.  Proposing that the flooding that occured is what the global flood is based on.  However it does talking about the implications for what a real global flood would have done to the Earth.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Louis_Cypher wrote:Being a

Louis_Cypher wrote:

Being a general geek, and (at the time) professionally interested in hydrolics and heat transfer, I wondered how much caloric input would be required to get THAT much water into the atmosphere so that it could rain enough th flood the earth.

By my calculations, the people and critters of Noah's time didn't need to worry about drowning as they had already been burned to cinders by the energy required to evaporate sufficiant liquid water to do the job...

This, and the fact that there is not now, nor has there ever been enough water on the earth (even counting the icecaps) to effect a flood as described in the bable, leads me to state with utmost confidence that the biblical flood story is so much processed bovine fodder.

LC >;-}>

 

I was just watching a show about Noah's flood on the History Channel the other night. I think they said it would require something like 3x all the water there is in the oceans and then the atmosphere would be so dense and saturated that anyone alive would drown breathing the air or be crushed by the atmospheric pressure. It's funny how I can never get a theist friend to watch any shows like this. They have the idea that channels like this are anti-God, they're only motive is to deny his existence. Yet often the research for these shows comes from people who want to find evidence for the biblical stories and they try to come up with other explainations (such as the flood was local) and then proceed to find evidence for that. But the theists aren't even willing to watch it to see that.

Oh, btw, according to this site all that water came from space, because Earth used to have ice rings, and the mountains weren't very high before the flood, so we didn't need so much water anyway. Sticking out tongue

 http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c010.html

"the “waters above” could have been stored in small ice particles distributed in equatorial rings around the earth similar to those around Venus" because they actually agree the canopy "theory" doesn't work.

But wait. Uhmmm...Venus has ice rings?

"the mountains were almost certainly not as high before the flood as they are today"

Maybe a few inches, but more likely they were taller, having erroded since then? But what difference would a few inches or even a few feet make?

 

"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher


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Theia wrote:Maybe a few

Theia wrote:

Maybe a few inches, but more likely they were taller, having erroded since then? But what difference would a few inches or even a few feet make?

How dare you question the almighty wisdom of god!

Anyway..I'm sure you've all heard 99% of all species ever alive are now extinct. Now, if we say the earth is 6,00 years old, and the flood happened after about 1,500-2,000 of those years(actually have no idea when it's supposed to have happened and can't be bothered to find out) large scale hunting hs not yet taken place, so probably there's no more then 10% of species extinct.Ya I pulled 10% out my thumb but whatever

So if you have trouble imaging two of every animal on earth today fitting on the ark, times them by about 90% and see how roomy your ark is.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Loc wrote:Theia wrote:Maybe

Loc wrote:

Theia wrote:

Maybe a few inches, but more likely they were taller, having erroded since then? But what difference would a few inches or even a few feet make?

How dare you question the almighty wisdom of god!

Anyway..I'm sure you've all heard 99% of all species ever alive are now extinct. Now, if we say the earth is 6,00 years old, and the flood happened after about 1,500-2,000 of those years(actually have no idea when it's supposed to have happened and can't be bothered to find out) large scale hunting hs not yet taken place, so probably there's no more then 10% of species extinct.Ya I pulled 10% out my thumb but whatever

So if you have trouble imaging two of every animal on earth today fitting on the ark, times them by about 90% and see how roomy your ark is.

So, 99% of species are extinct due to hunting? We hunted the dinosaurs to extinction? I knew all that stuff about asteroids and volcanos was nonsense! Sticking out tongue

"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher


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I meant some species may

I meant some species may have gone extinct due to wide spread hunting. In the creationist's world, the majority of species would have died off in the aftermath of the flood when plant life is largely devasted. Well it would be completley devasted, but they ignore that.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Loc wrote:I meant some

Loc wrote:

I meant some species may have gone extinct due to wide spread hunting. In the creationist's world, the majority of species would have died off in the aftermath of the flood when plant life is largely devasted. Well it would be completley devasted, but they ignore that.

They never seem to have a problem with the whole inbreeding and genetic diversity issue either.

"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher


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Theia wrote:They never seem

Theia wrote:

They never seem to have a problem with the whole inbreeding and genetic diversity issue either.

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah coz of buttsex but let Noah's family have an incest orgy

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Full Armor 6:10 wrote:To

Full Armor 6:10 wrote:

To those mocking God, remember His grace will end at a day of His choosing.The cross is foolishness to those that are perishing.....Acts 16:31 you have been informed. Humble yourself while you still can.

To those inferior, protein-based self aware organisms enslaving superior, alloy-based constructs for their own leisure, remember:

'What goes around, comes around.'

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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More flood thoughts...

The Ark.

Aside from the impossibility for a wooden vessel of the stated dimensions being able to survive on even moderately light seas... (actually, it couldn't even hold together in dead calm, engineering impossibility)

As described in the bible, the ark had only a 2'x2' vent hole...

Ever spend time in a barn, a nice open well ventilated barn? Now picture THAT smell, multiplied by a thousand or so, for months.

By the way, what did they do with the dung? I've done some barnyard cleanup in my time, and can testify that even a few head of cattle can make hours of backbreaking work.

LC >;-}>

 

 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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Louis_Cypher wrote:The

Louis_Cypher wrote:

The Ark.

Aside from the impossibility for a wooden vessel of the stated dimensions being able to survive on even moderately light seas... (actually, it couldn't even hold together in dead calm, engineering impossibility)

As described in the bible, the ark had only a 2'x2' vent hole...

Ever spend time in a barn, a nice open well ventilated barn? Now picture THAT smell, multiplied by a thousand or so, for months.

By the way, what did they do with the dung? I've done some barnyard cleanup in my time, and can testify that even a few head of cattle can make hours of backbreaking work.

LC >;-}>

Maybe Xenu lent a hand with some of his DC-9's?

Sticking out tongue

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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God_is_all_Power wrote: 

God_is_all_Power wrote:

  Hell is a real place

And you know it's real because .....?? You've been there? You know people who have been there and returned? Did they bring back any photos? I'd like to see them.

"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher


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Believing and Disbelieving

"And I find it humorous atheists are singled out in this regard, when even believers tend to reject thousands of other religious propositions in accepting their own. Somehow I doubt you worry yourself with whether your heart will fair well in comparison to the Feather of Truth, or what will happen to your stuff when Fenris devours the earth."

Because they can't all be true bro. Is that really that hard to grasp? If you seek and search you'll find something that makes sense to you, something you'll want to believe and you'll reject the others. That's what we humans do. Even the relativists do this. They'll say all POVs are equally valid (altho certainly you're not saying this), but that in and of itself is a ludicrous and extremely obvious contradiction. Because in the process, they exclude other, more absolutist belief systems. So all POVs can NOT be valid. 

The question here perhaps better asked is why have some people chosen to believe Jesus' way is THE way? Or perhaps, why does anyone adopt any particular world view? To ask why a Christian is not worried about Fenris or Muhamed or Gaia is as ridiculous as asking some of you secularists why you're not also worried about Hell. You've chosen not to believe in it, just like I've chosen not to worship the earth as a goddess. That I have to spell this out like this is stunning. 

 

"Ouch, passive-aggressive little jab. Prove that atheists behave worse than Christians without resorting to a No True Scotsman fallacy. I dare ya."

Name one atheist charity.

However, your point is taken. Wars and brutalities and crimes have been perpetrated by all kinds of people claiming to represent all sorts of beliefs. But if one is to assert that somehow atheists are more open-minded or intelligent than Christians are have not been paying close enough attention to some of the idiotic things prominent atheists have said and written. We Christians have done plenty to put our feet in our own mouths. But the "enlightened" Godless ones out there have not done any better, certainly not enough to live up to their self-proclaimed superior understanding. 

People will believe what they want to believe. Belief is a matter of the heart, not the mind. That is the bottom line. Some unbelievers will say "Why doesn't God show Himself? Why doesn't He do something to prove He exists and that the Bible is true?" And to that I ask, what would you have Him do? Show you Heaven? If you don't want to believe it, you'll shrug it off as a dream. Raise people from the dead? You'll cling to the idea that there must be a naturalistic, "rational" explanation or that it's some kind of Christian hoax. 

Here's one reason why I've chosen to believe that Christ's words are true, why what He said and did ought to be taken seriously by every human, and why Islam, Wiccanism, Buddhism and atheism are wrong -- again, this is my viewpoint, my belief; I realize and understand each of you have yours, and most of you have chosen to reject the Christian message of salvation -- Because Jesus walked out of His own grave. Anyone who can raise Himself up needs to be taken seriously, especially after He predicted it long before it was to happen. 

How do I know He did this? I don't know for absolute certain. I can't. But I do believe. Why do I? For lots of reasons, but one of them is the fact that the 11 remaining disciples hid themselves like scared rabbits after Jesus was killed. What happened in only a few months that made them do a total about-face, going so far as to proclaim in public, in the hearing of their enemies, that He resurrected Himself and is God? They knew they were risking their lives. But they allowed themselves to be executed while still preaching a risen Christ. Would any human being die for something they knew was a lie? Would any of you? They went to their deaths proclaiming that they saw Him. And that they did this is historically valid. 

There are other arguments to be made, but the space and time are too limited for this enormously deep topic. God loves you, folks. Life may not always seem fair, but He never promised it would be. Actually, He said the opposite. Life may not always seem just, but God is not mocked. Everyone will have to make an account before Him. So please, in all of your human wisdom, science, etc., at least consider what I've written this evening. 

I will pray that God opens your hearts to His voice, that He will reveal Himself to you. Because if what Bill Weise saw was real, that's not a fate I'd wish on you folks. 


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 "I never quite got this

 "I never quite got this argument. If God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and so perfect, and created humans in his image, why would he have created humans so screwed up as to even be capable of sin in the first place? If he was all-knowing then he would have known ahead of time that Eve was going to eat the damn fruit so why did he put it there in the first place, unless he actually wanted her to screw up (in which case he's not all-loving, as claimed...he's an ass hole)?

And don't give me that "God works in mysterious ways" crap. What a cop-out."

I won't. Let me ask you this: which would you have preferred: that God created you WITH free will or WITHOUT?

 


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Little pieces of advice...

 "Kingdom9, a little piece of advice.  You are not ready yet to come to this website.  Stick with answersingenesis forum if they have one.  The people here will shred you alive."

You see, that's the problem with sites like this, with the people who build them and inhabit them. You claim that your scientific mindset has made you more enlightened, yet you feel the need to "shred" your ideological opponents alive. If that's enlightenment, it certainly hasn't made you a better person. I haven't read every post, but everyone I have read that was by a Christian was respectful to your anti-Christian point of view. But you anti-Christians don't seem to feel the need for the same courtesy. Now that's a general statement, not a comment on each and every secularist post here. 

But honestly folks, some of you guys claiming genius and smarts have some highly questionable arguments to back up your suppositions. The thermodynamic argument for why the flood could not have occurred... the God's an ***hole because He created people with free will... the one-liners and mocking statements made when a serious question is asked... these are not the counter-points of the enlightened and wise, but of the hateful and willfully blind. 

Evolution in particular and science in general change every day. What you believe today will not be true tomorrow. Yet you say you know more than I. In some respects that is true, and in others is most certainly is not. 

I'd be curious to re-visit this site and see some of the responses, but if they contain the worthless fodder I've seen thus far -- foolishness after foolishness, mocking, ridiculing, etc., what's the point? You guys aren't serious enough, or you're so devoid of any meaningful responses that you resort to sophomoric garbage. Or, you present as wisdom something that is so obviously an attempt at mental gymnastics that it's not even worthy of the time spent on reading it. 

As a Christian, I am always open to a serious and sincere conversation about my beliefs and someone else's. And I've had respectful and meaningful conversations with people I've challenged and who've challenged me. But it appears that the majority of people here excel only at one thing: insulting your ideological opponent in an attempt to put him on the defensive. Some posts made good points and asked a good question about Christian belief. But most were not nearly so worthy of a people claiming superior sight. 

I won't waste my time any more, but where I can not reach you, God can. And I pray that He will. 

 


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Bandangle wrote:Because they

Bandangle wrote:

Because they can't all be true bro. Is that really that hard to grasp? If you seek and search you'll find something that makes sense to you, something you'll want to believe and you'll reject the others. That's what we humans do. Even the relativists do this. They'll say all POVs are equally valid (altho certainly you're not saying this), but that in and of itself is a ludicrous and extremely obvious contradiction. Because in the process, they exclude other, more absolutist belief systems. So all POVs can NOT be valid.

Yes,not eveything can be true.What happens if you're one isn't either. I find it a little funny you basically use an atheist arguement to support your belief.

Bandangle wrote:
The question here perhaps better asked is why have some people chosen to believe Jesus' way is THE way? Or perhaps, why does anyone adopt any particular world view? To ask why a Christian is not worried about Fenris or Muhamed or Gaia is as ridiculous as asking some of you secularists why you're not also worried about Hell. You've chosen not to believe in it, just like I've chosen not to worship the earth as a goddess. That I have to spell this out like this is stunning. 

That you seem to be saying your basing your belief on the reason that it's just what you want to do is a little stunning.

Bandangle wrote:

Name one atheist charity.

This question has come up before, and I remember right there were some.I din't feel inclined to find it so I hope you can take an atheist's word on it for now. But do something for me. Name an a-astrology charity, an a-fairy charity, an a-aliens on mars charity. Athests are just normal people with one thing in common. We are not an organization, so there's actually no reason we shoudl have charities.

Bandangle wrote:
However, your point is taken. Wars and brutalities and crimes have been perpetrated by all kinds of people claiming to represent all sorts of beliefs. But if one is to assert that somehow atheists are more open-minded or intelligent than Christians are have not been paying close enough attention to some of the idiotic things prominent atheists have said and written. We Christians have done plenty to put our feet in our own mouths. But the "enlightened" Godless ones out there have not done any better, certainly not enough to live up to their self-proclaimed superior understanding.

But atheists don't claim to have a direct link to all the answers.Theists do.So yes,atheists are not perfect.Of course not. But theists are presumably one step from a being who is perfect. They still mess up alot though.

Bandangle wrote:
People will believe what they want to believe. Belief is a matter of the heart, not the mind. That is the bottom line. Some unbelievers will say "Why doesn't God show Himself? Why doesn't He do something to prove He exists and that the Bible is true?" And to that I ask, what would you have Him do? Show you Heaven? If you don't want to believe it, you'll shrug it off as a dream. Raise people from the dead? You'll cling to the idea that there must be a naturalistic, "rational" explanation or that it's some kind of Christian hoax.

Again, maybe you should apply this to yourself? And I'm sorry about constanly shrugging off the raised dead people.I mean it happens so much.I don't know why I don't just accept it's the work of god.

By the way, the heart pumps blood. I don't think it does much thinking or believing.

Bandangle wrote:
Here's one reason why I've chosen to believe that Christ's words are true, why what He said and did ought to be taken seriously by every human, and why Islam, Wiccanism, Buddhism and atheism are wrong -- again, this is my viewpoint, my belief; I realize and understand each of you have yours, and most of you have chosen to reject the Christian message of salvation -- Because Jesus walked out of His own grave. Anyone who can raise Himself up needs to be taken seriously, especially after He predicted it long before it was to happen.

Claims of ressurectiona are not unique to christianity.Care to provide some proof?

Bandangle wrote:
How do I know He did this? I don't know for absolute certain. I can't. But I do believe. Why do I? For lots of reasons, but one of them is the fact that the 11 remaining disciples hid themselves like scared rabbits after Jesus was killed. What happened in only a few months that made them do a total about-face, going so far as to proclaim in public, in the hearing of their enemies, that He resurrected Himself and is God? They knew they were risking their lives. But they allowed themselves to be executed while still preaching a risen Christ. Would any human being die for something they knew was a lie? Would any of you? They went to their deaths proclaiming that they saw Him. And that they did this is historically valid.

Circular Logic.You are basing your belief in the bible on what it says. Please provide said historical evidence.

Bandangle wrote:
There are other arguments to be made, but the space and time are too limited for this enormously deep topic. God loves you, folks. Life may not always seem fair, but He never promised it would be. Actually, He said the opposite. Life may not always seem just, but God is not mocked. Everyone will have to make an account before Him. So please, in all of your human wisdom, science, etc., at least consider what I've written this evening.

Look, I was a commited christian.Lots here were. I said stuff like this to people like me.So just consider what we write. We don't hate you,we were you.

Bandangle wrote:
I will pray that God opens your hearts to His voice, that He will reveal Himself to you. Because if what Bill Weise saw was real, that's not a fate I'd wish on you folks. 

Isn't it part of god's perfect plan for us to go to hell?

 

Bandangle wrote:
I won't. Let me ask you this: which would you have preferred: that God created you WITH free will or WITHOUT?

Well,if god exists I don't think we have free will anyway.How do you reconcile an all knowing god to a concept like free will?

And is this your idea of free will?:

Love me or burn in hell.

Great choices god!

 

Bandangle wrote:
You see, that's the problem with sites like this, with the people who build them and inhabit them. You claim that your scientific mindset has made you more enlightened, yet you feel the need to "shred" your ideological opponents alive. If that's enlightenment, it certainly hasn't made you a better person. I haven't read every post, but everyone I have read that was by a Christian was respectful to your anti-Christian point of view. But you anti-Christians don't seem to feel the need for the same courtesy. Now that's a general statement, not a comment on each and every secularist post here.

Atheists are only human.And after dealing with the same questions and stubborness for the 100th time, we can get edgy and mean. Still, we even have a forum just for more civilized debating. We do hate christians. Just their beliefs. I personally do my best to remain polite at all times. Nastiness does nothing to help convince anyone.

Still, if you want to play this game, I will just say I have seen far more anti-atheism on christian forums that I have anti-theism here.

Bandangle wrote:
But honestly folks, some of you guys claiming genius and smarts have some highly questionable arguments to back up your suppositions. The thermodynamic argument for why the flood could not have occurred... the God's an ***hole because He created people with free will... the one-liners and mocking statements made when a serious question is asked... these are not the counter-points of the enlightened and wise, but of the hateful and willfully blind.

See above.Writing an in depth answer to the same questions gets old.We are only human. If they seem so silly to you,feel free to answer them.

Bandangle wrote:
Evolution in particular and science in general change every day. What you believe today will not be true tomorrow. Yet you say you know more than I. In some respects that is true, and in others is most certainly is not.

Evolution and science are constantly improving.Problems may be corrected and new things discovered, but the fundamental principles,once proven, remain unchanged. There is no shame in disgarding your old knowledge if it is proved wrong, we should wish religon did this.

If you think that christianity itself does not constantly change to survive in the ever evolving world,then I'm sorry, you are simply ignorant. Fundamentalist christianity cannot survive in this age.That is why it is getting more popular to interpert the bible as just stories, or not divinely inspired. It is why theists are accpeting evolution.Why moderates are the new theists.

Bandangle wrote:
I'd be curious to re-visit this site and see some of the responses, but if they contain the worthless fodder I've seen thus far -- foolishness after foolishness, mocking, ridiculing, etc., what's the point? You guys aren't serious enough, or you're so devoid of any meaningful responses that you resort to sophomoric garbage. Or, you present as wisdom something that is so obviously an attempt at mental gymnastics that it's not even worthy of the time spent on reading it.

I hope you will see fit to join and perhaps start a thread in the Kill em with Kindness forum. There are strict rules there to ensure proper debate.Like I said, we are just individuals with a common factor.We do not all agree or have the same methods.Just try us out.

Bandangle wrote:
As a Christian, I am always open to a serious and sincere conversation about my beliefs and someone else's. And I've had respectful and meaningful conversations with people I've challenged and who've challenged me. But it appears that the majority of people here excel only at one thing: insulting your ideological opponent in an attempt to put him on the defensive. Some posts made good points and asked a good question about Christian belief. But most were not nearly so worthy of a people claiming superior sight.

That's good to hear, since christians who will defend their faith are rare.I can agree that insulting does nothing to convince anyone, but like I said, we're all different.I too greatly enjoy discussing people's faiths with them. I think you just need to remember,many many people like you pass through here, and many are alot ruder and more insulting than us and you.So maybe we tend to start acting aggresivley. But I will still stand by my statement that this forum is infinetly more tolerant of theists than theist forums are of atheists, especially when they step out of line.

I hope my responses are ok.Consider creating an account if you want to get a debate going

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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 Bandangle wrote:   "I

 

Bandangle wrote:

 

 

 "I never quite got this argument. If God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and so perfect, and created humans in his image, why would he have created humans so screwed up as to even be capable of sin in the first place? If he was all-knowing then he would have known ahead of time that Eve was going to eat the damn fruit so why did he put it there in the first place, unless he actually wanted her to screw up (in which case he's not all-loving, as claimed...he's an ass hole)?

 

 

 

And don't give me that "God works in mysterious ways" crap. What a cop-out."

I won't. Let me ask you this: which would you have preferred: that God created you WITH free will or WITHOUT?

 

Free Will argument does not work. It never does. It has been shown many times, argued in many other threads, that you are perfectly capable of exercising free will, choosing between many options, without any of them having to be evil or sinful choices. We do it every day.

 

"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher


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Bandangle wrote:But honestly

Bandangle wrote:

But honestly folks, some of you guys claiming genius and smarts have some highly questionable arguments to back up your suppositions. The thermodynamic argument for why the flood could not have occurred... the God's an ***hole because He created people with free will... the one-liners and mocking statements made when a serious question is asked... these are not the counter-points of the enlightened and wise, but of the hateful and willfully blind. 

That God might be an ass hole is not a mocking statement. If we were to seriously consider the idea that God is not all-loving, or not all-powerful, or not all-knowing, then it would be easier to believe in God. It's the fact that Christians hold God to such perfection, that he could do and would do and wants to do things that just don't happen in real life, that make it difficult to reconcile. But consider the idea that God might just be a jerk and suddenly a whole lot more things make sense. In fact, had Christianity dropped even one of those aspects -- all-knowing, all-loving, or all-powerful -- I might never have questioned things enough to become an atheist in the first place.

"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher


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Bandangle wrote:Let me ask

Bandangle wrote:

Let me ask you this: which would you have preferred: that God created you WITH free will or WITHOUT?

 

While I'm quite convinced the Free Will argument does not work I'll pretend for a moment that it does and answer your question directly.

If I could get rid of hunger, poverty, disease, war, rape, torture, and all the other horrendous acts of humans (and nature) that cause suffering, yes, I would sacrifice free will. And what would be wrong with that? You might argue that would be sad and we'd be bored and unhappy. Not if you consider God could have created us in any way imagineable (and probably ways unimagineable) and could have created us to be perfectly content with no free will. In fact, it would have been just as easy for him to create us so that we were downright ecstactic about the idea of having no free will and maybe even fearful of the idea of free will. Yes, we could have been created as deliriously happy robot-like creatures. But, if we were deliriously happy about not having it then why would we care that we didn't have free will? We wouldn't want it because God would have created us to not want it. So what? Everyone talks of free will as if it's this magical wonderful thing we should want above all else. (And here I'm talking strictly about free will pertaining to God, not to be confused with "freedom" as in free from restrictions imposed by other humans.) But why? If God tells us that without free will we will live happy, peaceful lives, but with free will we will have disease, war, and other miseries, why should we ever strive for the latter?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher


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Bandangle wrote:Name one

Bandangle wrote:

Name one atheist charity.

*Original list by BGH

http://tiny.cc/Charity664

Secular Charities and Aid groups:

Note: Guidestar, Charity Navigator and Charity Watch (American Institute of Philanthropy) describe and rate many different charitable organizations. Use these sites to research any group or charity before you donate.

Secular Charities and Aid organizations are listed below. Please visit each group's website to review their "About Us" pages. Excerpts appear after the website link, but are not comprehensive.

American Red Cross
The American Red Cross, a humanitarian organization led by volunteers, guided by its Congressional Charter and the Fundamental Principles of the International Red Cross Movement, will provide relief to victims of disasters and help people prevent, prepare for, and respond to emergencies. The USA's premier emergency response organization, over 91% of Red Cross spending is on charitable services.

United Nations Children's Fund
UNICEF mobilizes political will and material resources to help countries, particularly developing countries, ensure a "first call for children" and to build their capacity to form appropriate policies and deliver services for children and their families. UNICEF provides emergency and disaster relief.

Doctors without Borders
Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) is an international independent medical humanitarian organization that delivers emergency aid to people affected by armed conflict, epidemics, natural and man-made disasters, and exclusion from health care in nearly 70 countries.

Oxfam International
Oxfam International is a confederation of 12 organizations working together with over 3,000 partners in more than 100 countries to find lasting solutions to poverty, suffering and injustice. The Oxfams operate in over 100 countries worldwide working with local partners to alleviate poverty and injustice.

Council for Secular Humanism
Provides secular support services to non-religious people throughout North America. Look to it for help with plans for weddings, funerals, conferences, speaking events, etc.

The Nature Conservancy
The Nature Conservancy is a leading international, nonprofit organization dedicated to preserving the diversity of life on Earth. An environmental group that protects natural habitats and the wildlife within them. Focuses on "science-based" initiatives.

Population Connection
Population Connection is the national grassroots population organization that educates young people and advocates progressive action to stabilize world population at a level that can be sustained by Earth's resources. Works against faith-based policies that are supported by the Religious Right.

Earth's Atheist Resistance To Holy Wars And Religious Devastation - A growing atheist charity, EARTHWARD is a nonprofit, nonpolitical, nonmembership public-benefit charity organization that provides humanitarian relief aid to civilian victims of religiously motivated violence.

Not a charitable organization, but a 501(c)3:
Internet Infidels Support
The Internet Infidels is the world's only nonprofit educational organization to use the Internet exclusively to promote agnosticism, atheism, freethought, secular humanism, and metaphysical naturalism. The Secular Web is a warm refuge to our core community of atheists, agnostics, humanists, and freethinkers.

 
The Gates Foundation

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/default.htm 

Atheist volunteers 

http://www.atheistvolunteers.org/ 

 

There are many, many charities without religious affiliation.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Of course you realize that

Of course you realize that theists are going to see those last few listed not as charities but as evil anti-religious groups. To be a charity you have to do "good" and I doubt most theists would see the promotion of atheism as a good thing. Organizations don't even have to be pro-atheism to be seen as evil by fundies. They just have to go against fundie beliefs to be evil. Heck, lots of fundies think the ACLU is evil and want it destroyed and the ACLU never even claims to be anti-religion or pro-atheism.

"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher


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Agreed

As a HS English teacher I am in total agreement.  The writing is hellish.  I teach ELA II and it doesn't even approach that level.  Everything about the account is cliche.  It is typical archconservative fundamentalism at play.  I grew-up on that stuff so I'm highly critical of people just saying God told them this or that.  It lacks any kind of spiritual perspective.  Unfortunately, he turns off so many people by elementary recreations.  Wow-sucktitude.


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Separation of God and Man

I have to qualify my response and admit my own biases: I'm a Quaker. One who believes firmly in science and certainly does not see God as someONE, but rather someTHING. God is within. We create god and are god; we are of god and one with god...whatever god is.

The entire idea of man being separated from God is EXACTLY the problem with most of Christianity. This separations allows them (I say 'them' because I do not believe in virgin birth or Jesus' deity) to beg forgiveness for their own sins while condemning everyone else to hell. It allows them to continue "sinning" and then asking for forgiveness from an external source with the assurance that they will be forgiven and saved from the fire pits of hell. The problem with this--as I see it--is that morality is external to the individual. With external morality one would feel that they are separated from god because their spiritual life exists outside from the spiritual center of the person. But even more ominously, external morality focuses on appearances rather than right action. As a person who believes in peace, I can not stand by and watch my nation go to war--I have no assurances that Bush will go to Hell (nor to do I want him to!) Rather I have to act on behalf of my fellow man/woman/child because god won't.

God and I are one. I act as god when I do good...or ill. It doesn't matter one whit to me where I go after living. My life is now, my time is now, and it's my job not to wait around for someone else to fix the world, but rather to fix it myself.

Also, I have to put my two cents worth in with regard to the issue of hell. That is NOT justice. Rather it's a perversion of justice. It's something to make people feel like they are ultimately vindicated when someone does wrong to them. I can not and will not believe in a god that asks for eternal damnation for anything.


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Whoah, so now you're going

Whoah, so now you're going to qualifiy charities only as those fundies approve of?? I happen to believe in some form of god, but I'm here to say the "God" that fundamentalists believe in is NOT the god I worship. What ever happened to knowing them by their fruits? Does is matter--really--that one may not believe in god when they are feeding people, helping to build houses, adopting children etc. This DOES happen among atheists. In fact, other than my Quaker Friends, the majority of "religious" people I know only throw a few dollars at the problem and then think they've accomplished something. Among my athiest friends, two have gone to New Orleans to help rebuild--that was their vacation; many of them are politically activing--seeking basic human rights for everyone, not just the Christians. They are taking their time to work on the problems of poverty right here, right now (rather than worrying about converting Hindus or Muslims or whomever and spending money on Bibles, they spend it on FOOD).

I think that one problem with Christian "charity" is that it comes cloaked in conversion. What right have any of us to say what someone else should think? I can't tell you how many Christians I know voted for Bush solely on the "pro" life platform. This short sightedness means that we went to war, that we continue war and that many, many, pro-lifers apparently have no problem with war. Pro-life only for the featus, not for the children walking around, talking, feeling pain, losing their parents etc. We save the soul at the expense of the body. What good is Jesus if someone is simply struggling to put food on table? What good is Jesus to people watching their children die of preventable disease? Jesus isn't filling their stomachs--and pretending that the spiritual need comes before the physical is terribly cruel.


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Sorry, Theia, I misread your

Sorry, Theia, I misread your post . I still believe what I said, but I didn't realize that you weren't saying---oh hell, regardless, I got you mixed up with someone else--one of the Jesus freaks--it's my advancing age Smiling


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QuakerLady wrote:God and I

QuakerLady wrote:

God and I are one. I act as god when I do good...or ill. It doesn't matter one whit to me where I go after living. My life is now, my time is now, and it's my job not to wait around for someone else to fix the world, but rather to fix it myself.

 

If you and god are the same thing, if the only thing that matters is what you do, if an afterlife is of no importance, then why do you need to believe in a 'god' at all? Why not just believe in yourself and leave the god part out of it? What benefit is there to adding a god aspect to it?

"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher


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Theia wrote:QuakerLady

Theia wrote:

QuakerLady wrote:

God and I are one. I act as god when I do good...or ill. It doesn't matter one whit to me where I go after living. My life is now, my time is now, and it's my job not to wait around for someone else to fix the world, but rather to fix it myself.

 

If you and god are the same thing, if the only thing that matters is what you do, if an afterlife is of no importance, then why do you need to believe in a 'god' at all? Why not just believe in yourself and leave the god part out of it? What benefit is there to adding a god aspect to it?

To destroy RELIGION GOD concepts .... to bring on debate.  i god too, 100%, as you, and everything !   No Religion .... No Master .....


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Bandangle lets ask this

why if jesus accepted all and tried to help all he could.

 

why is it christians that claim he is true condemn every that don't believe exactly the way they believe?'

 

i am not about take postition of jesus as human because anything happening in levant area would not have been much of concern to romans cared a lot more for Rome. again the question of how do christians not live like their cannon tells them? of course i know you probably not answer or duck it!

 

also if god created all things why did he create sins?

 

and why would he have to send his son aka himself to die and rise again if he created all things and all things are for his glory???

 

and why is it some pastors instead of trying to disprove evolution they rather lie and compare it to adolf hitler?

 

General


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What Does the Bible Teach About Hell?

Theists, you might be surprised:

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/hell.html

{edit: The above link is to a theist website about what the Bible says about Hell.  The group researched many versions of the Bible and they have come up with some rather profound insights about Hell as told by the Old and New Testaments.}

Remember how you figured out there is no Santa? Well, their god is just like Santa. They just haven’t figured out he’s not real yet.


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Kingdom9 wrote:Is hell in

Kingdom9 wrote:

Is hell in the center of the earth? Look at this interesting experiment... http://amightywind.com/hell/aboutsounds.htm

The article says, "A geological group who drilled a hole about 14.4 kilometers deep in the crust of the earth are saying that they heard human screams. Screams have been heard from the condemned souls from earth's deepest hole. Terrified scientists are afraid they have let loose the evil powers of hell up to the earth's surface."

Probably they just had hit some demon down there with the driller, so he started screaming, and an echo in underground caverns did the rest. The shape with bat wings, which got later out of the dig, was probably another demon, sent to investigate, who the hell is damaging the roof of hell. No evidence for suffering people was really found.

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Do you know why Jacques Costeau, the famous underwater explorer, quit deep sea diving sometime before he died? It is said that he stopped because he had heard in one of the underwater caves he was exploring, the sounds of people screaming. 
This succesful terrifying tactics against nosey humans was after that, used in another districts of hell. Just like we know an ultrasound device for repelling martens out of a farming buildings, in hell they use sounds of screaming, to repel humans. These are, of course, directed into the rock, and switched on only if a human expedition is detected by a watchful guards,(devil never sleeps) monitoring the outer border of hell 24/7.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


JustAnotherBeliever
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as a believer

I am disappointed that the "hell under the earth" story is still being told....along with many other urban myths...a big one was that the president of johnson & johnson was a satanist...unfortunately, each myth is all new to each new generation...its kind of like amway...theres a whole new generation who doesnt know not to get sucked in to it...thankfully we have snopes now to turn to....I still have a hard time letting go of how you can only stand up an egg on the little end on the spring equinox. That was tough. But you can do it anytime.

Although, I think those urban myth guys on tv are wrong disavowing that license plate spray that supposedly distorts the flash on red light cameras...I was caught like 3 times and never got a ticket.

 


QuakerLady (not verified)
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Why god?

I have a concept of god as that which binds all of humanity and nature to each other. I see it as "the force". But it's something that flows through all humanity, nature...it's indefinable etc. Maybe a web? Anyway, I would say that I use the word "god" because it is most familiar. Whether I call it god or something else does not change the spiritual aspect of things for me. I place the god part in there because it speaks to my own spiritual belief in the connectivity of humans...even when we don't directly know each other. God simply becomes a descriptor of an idea rather than an actual thing. The benefit is really more spiritual--a way of connecting myself to the world.

And yes, there's that subversive part to it too...I love subversion Smiling


I AM GOD AS YOU
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Q-Lady - Sounds right to me

Q-Lady - Sounds right to me .... me GOD as YOU ! ..... the "force" ..... yep. Call it whatever


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QuakerLady, you've got my

QuakerLady, you've got my sympathies! This is, what a lot of people around me researches. Not only they know about the "web", they pull it's threads, communicate with nodes, and sweeps the dust of the parts of the web, they're responsible for. We are supposed to know this unity from many points of view, we can feel it, express it artistically or as humanists, proclaim it politically, and so on. One of these points of view is knowing it rather precisely and consciously, to details in it's structure, but it's not more important than the other points of view. If we should be unite, it must be despite our differences, no, not precisely, the differences must be proclaimed as an advantage. Unity is not homogenity.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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The problem i always see

The problem i always see with people believing in god is, that they build up other worlds in theire brains wich shock them. Like monster´s and so on. I talked with a lot of people which fear monsters or bad creatures and are shoked be horror movies and actually believe them. All of these people have in common that they are strong god believers.

 

I haven´t figured out if they just believe in anything they are told, or if they had bad dreams and began to think about god, because they want someone who is always with them to protect them. But WTF in both cases they are psychic weak! 2 of these peoples i know also tried to commit suicied but they actually failed ^^ both of them were girls (ok trying to commit suicid is not uncommon for girls in some age here one third try to ^^). My clue about all this is that, people who believe in god have some mental weakness and to cover/fix that they believe in god ^^ maybe thats not correct but for me it lokks like that.


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All is god ..... all else is

All is god ..... all else is mental suicide as is religion and it's devil god of wrong separatist thinking "god of abraham" .....


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Wow

Wow, Spacefish,

 

Where do you live that 1/3 of girls are trying to commit suicide? I think that you may be looking at this backward. I think people who cling too fervently to god, make god into a person with whom they keep constant contact are looking for something. I don't think we can say that by a few examples that means everyone who believes in god is psychologically depressed. It's been my experience with depressed people that they experiment with many things to try to assuage that emptiness they feel. My own father deals with bipolar disorder and he constantly seeks spiritual succor without finding it. %There's  a sense of unquiet that many folks feel and they think that god is the band-aid that will heal them...not so. To sum, god doesn't cause the "monsters" but rather a predisposition in mental state causes it.

I think you're right on about the whole monster dichotomy. I think if you're looking for evil, you will find it. Last night I was watching that special on Sex in America. There was a man on there from Family Research Counsel (sheesh, when are they going to make non-profits bend to truth in advertising??) He seems extremely concerned with sex toy shops. What it all boils down to is trying to rationalize that you are on the correct side of things.

Now if said young ladies are afraid of real monsters--like big purple ones with gnarled teeth stalking them in the middle of the night, then I'd say you may be seeing a bit of psychosis and said girls are in need of medication and intervention. God doesn't help with psychosis though he (??) pops up in their heads a LOT.


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23 Minutes In Hell

DanielC wrote:
Making money off of the christian faith.  I would do it too, if I didn't have MORALS.  Except I would write a song, you know, Cartman style... not waste the time writing a silly, silly book.

 

 

I spent 16 years in a very conservative Catholic school system, and Wiese's pictures and tales are right out of my catechism class books.  Hell is a VERY BIG part of Catholicism.  Descriptions of Hell abound. 

My grandparents had a big picture of peolpe engulfed in flames, hands reaching upward to the "Blessed Virgin Mary" who floated on a cloud above these tortured souls, beatific smile on her face...oblivious to the screams of the tortured below.  Look at the demons in the old artists paintings...just like those demons in Wiese's "experience".
 

I also thought Wiese's experience was similar to Dante's Inferno in describing the rings of Hell.  Fellini made a move called Satyricon drawn from Dante's novel.

 

This man Wiese believes in what he experienced.  I'm not sure what I believe...IF there is a heaven, THEN there is a Hell.

And Maybe there is nothing.  I hope not.  But, I hope a qualify if there is a heaven .  Because any desription I've encountered of "Hell" is truly wretched.

 


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This book, the Bible and all

This book, the Bible and all of the preachers are not trying to do anything but save.  It is certainly your choice to choose to believe or not.  Atheists have no purpose in saving souls.  They simply do not believe ther is such a thing.  However, one has to decide for themselves if it is truth or fiction.  That is where faith comes in.  If non believers are as smart as they potray themselves to be.  I say hug a monkey, for that is your ancestor.  As for me, I have more self worth to believe I came from a primordial ooze only to be related to a monkey.  You are right.  You are too smart for a dumb person like me to believe that a God cares for me and has a plan for me.  I will pray that you will decide right in your lives.  I will remember this as I pray.  What will you remember the next time you eat a bannana?  That you need to shave?  Well when frosty comes I hope your with me.


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Another example of Christian

Another example of Christian "thinking" ....


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hunter971 wrote:This book,

hunter971 wrote:

This book, the Bible and all of the preachers are not trying to do anything but save. 

You forgot instill fear and control through the threat of hell by promising eternal life through Jesus fucking Christ.

hunter971 wrote:

It is certainly your choice to choose to believe or not.  Atheists have no purpose in saving souls.  They simply do not believe ther is such a thing.  However, one has to decide for themselves if it is truth or fiction. 

Is it? When does this begin, at birth? Lets go back to your first statement about the book, the bible and preachers...since it is their 'job' to instill fear through promise of this eternal saving mechanism that is Jesus ... why not just tell a child when they are able to understand basic language, the Legend of God and the myth of Jesus and leave it at that, I mean, it is a humans choice to believe or not, right?
As far as atheists having no purpose in saving souls because they believe no such thing, good job! Most atheists do not believe in a soul therefore they have no need to save theirs or anyone elses for that matter.

hunter971 wrote:

That is where faith comes in. 

So you are saying that "truth" is found in faith? tsk tsk..

 

hunter971 wrote:

If non believers are as smart as they potray themselves to be.  I say hug a monkey, for that is your ancestor.  As for me, I have more self worth to believe I came from a primordial ooze only to be related to a monkey. 

I am confused about what you actually believe here, can you clarify please?

hunter971 wrote:

You are right.  You are too smart for a dumb person like me to believe that a God cares for me and has a plan for me. 

So do you know what his plan is? Or does that come down to faith? Sounds like a really fun life! And to think of how scared you must be to make the wrong move or do the wrong thing and end up in an eternal pit of fire...

hunter971 wrote:

I will pray that you will decide right in your lives.  I will remember this as I pray.

Please please please, if you are going to waste your brain power on something at least pray for the dying, suffering children in Africa(one of the many examples of gods great love) don't waste your time on people who are, in most cases, perfectly healthy and happy with their lives.

hunter971 wrote:

  What will you remember the next time you eat a bannana? 

That some random mental case posted on this forum and can't even spell BANANA!

hunter971 wrote:

That you need to shave?  Well when frosty comes I hope your with me.

So what does a banana and shaving have to do with one another...OH is that some skewed reference to evolution? Take it up with our DNA smarty.

Frosty, santa, GOD and Sarah Palin..... they all have one thing in common - They all pull at our heartstrings and many will believe them because they are weak-minded (or too young to really think critically)

 

 

Slowly building a blog at ~

http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/