Debate with QW85 Con't

Rook_Hawkins's picture

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[[[I see what you're saying and I respect it... however, there's a lot we don't know.]]]

That's the God of the Gaps fallacy again. You're plugging something you don't know into something you don't know. You're filling a gap of vagueness with something incredibly more vague. You don't see a problem with that?

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[[[ We're human there are things that our brians can never even beging to comprehend and maybe that's just it. Maybe God is something we physically can not comprhend. ]]]

But by admitting this you admit that God has no influence in our lives anyway...even if he did exist he wouldn't physically or mentally effect us in any way. SO why believe in him? His existence is irrelevant to your life. More important things exist...like bills, your family, and your friends, school, your whole future. Why waste that by giving over some of that life, which you will never ever get back, to something which has absolutely no effect on your reality?

Let me give you an example. This is from Sam Harris, and his book "End of Faith":

Now just take that kind of talk into another area. Just change God to some other consoling proposition and appreciate what a non sequitur that is as to the question, “Why do you believe in God.” This is actually an example from my book. Imagine your neighbor believes that he had got a diamond buried in his backyard that is the size of a refrigerator. You ask him why and he says things like, “You don't understand. This diamond gives my life a lot of meaning,” or “My family loves the gatherings we have on the lawn digging this pit every Sunday. Are you going to take that away from us?” Or imagine if he said, “I wouldn’t want to live in a universe where there wasn't a diamond buried in my backyard that's the size of a refrigerator.” It's pretty clear—it's immediately clear that those responses would be inadequate—deeply inadequate. Those really are the responses of a madman or an idiot. And yet, take the same kind of thinking into the religious domain. These responses have immense prestige. In fact, unless you endorsed some thinking of that time, you could not possibly get elected to political office in this country.

This is exactly my point. If you change "God" into "Vaccuum Cleaner" you would immediately look at the situation and say,..."Wait a second...there is something seriously wrong here." But you put God back in the equation and automatically you drop all sense of logic and revert back to.."Well, yeah I'll take that person on their word for it." And that's all you're doing. Putting trust into an idea that makes no sense outside of a domain that makes no sense.

If I said I believed in Aliens that lived in my ears, and that I couldn't prove they existed...but perhaps their technology was such that we couldn't detect their presense by physical standards. Would you assume I was correct, take my word for it, and be extra cautious that night swabbing your ears out with a cottonswab? I hope not. I hope you'd think Iw as crazy. In fact, if I ever said that, I hope you'd do whatever was in your power to get me help.

And that is all I am saying. You wouldn't just take some nuts word for it about the same situation, add different name, you'd look at them, and for their own benefit say.."You're nuts...lets go see a doctor."

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[[[We're taught by teacher, science, that we are the most advanced beings. ]]]]

No we're not. We're told we are the most resourceful. Which is true.

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[[[We're as complex as it gets, but there are things about our own boddies that we can't even explain. The bond a child and a parent have the first monent they see each other.]]]]

Animals have that same act. Would you say a rabbit has a soul?

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[[[ That is an act of God. ]]]

Says who? We know exactly why animals have a bond with their mothers! I would challenge you to go back to KU, and tell a biology teacher that she doesn't know why a bond exists between mother and young...she'll probably laugh at you before sending you some information on neurology and chemical reactions in our brains that trigger maternal instincts. That is a spoonfed lie. I'm sorry, but you've been lied to about that. And I am disappointed in whomever told you that.

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[[[The wind we don't see it, but we feel it. We know it's there.]]]]

Another poor analogy. We can test the wind. We can gauge it. We know it's effects are physical as we can test them. We know it powers things, we know it's uses and disadvantages. We know where it comes from (The variance in air pressure and the axis of the earth, the pull of gravity, all have an effect on creating and supplimenting wind). None of this can be done for a God.

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[[[I see God in everything. No human could ever make the world we have now without having used nature around us.]]]

Humans are as much a part of nature as nature is a part of us. It's called an ecosystem. We are all symbiots and hosts to everything else around. That is evidence for evolution in and of itself.

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[[[ Evertyhing in science, relating this to history, has a point where no one knows where it begings.]]]]

Actually we DO know where it begins. We know the age of the universe because of mathematics, we know the distrance between the sun and the earth, we know more then you give us credit for. It's perhaps your bliss in your belief that prevents you from exploring that further?

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[[[ That's God. God is the beinging and the end. ]]]]

That doesn't answer anything. That's complete non-sequitor.

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[[[[We don't know his plan because we can't comprehend it.]]]]

Or perhaps there is no plan and he doesn't exist? I think that is more probable. Especially because I have evidence for his non-existence...the fact that I am living, right now, without God is evidence for his non-existence.

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[[[[ We're humans we have flaws. We were made with flaws because God wouldn't make a perfect being.]]]]

Another logical fallacy, called Begging the Question. If God is perfect, he cannot create imperfection. There are no shades of perfection...you're either perfect or you're not. If God cannot create perfection...or creates imperfection, he ceases to be perfect. Because nothing imperfect can come from perfection. It's an imposibility. If something imperfect comes from a perfect design, regardless of intent, it makes the design imperfect..and the designer imperfect.

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[[[ He would have created himself then.]]]

You haven't read Genesis lately have you?

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[[[ He had to create a counter part, evil, inorder the keep the natural balence in which all of nature centers around. ]]]]

Did you know that is not Biblical? That was decided upon in a council in the Vatican in the third century.

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[[[[We have to have that balence or else it fails.]]]

If God's plan can fail he is not a perfect being.

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[[[ God has a plan for us. He guides us to make the right desisions but in the end it's our choise to make those desisions, God alows us to have choises he knows which one we're going to make, but he gives us them any way. ]]]]

There's that contradiction again. I request you go back and reread WHY this is impossible.

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[[[[He has a master plan that we can never comprehend that. ]]]]

Then you should just no live. In fact, you should just vegitate..oh wait, he'd have known you were going to do that millenia ago anyway...so really all you're doing is doing exactly what he saw you were doing. You are still a robot.

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[[[[I believe that at the end of our lives just before we die God gives us this monent of intence clarity when everything in our lives make sence and the propose of life and our whole resoning is explained. ]]]]

Yet you've never been there, and when you die it will be too late. You'd have already given your whole life over to a myth.

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[[[We only see one very small part of it. because that's all we'll ever be able to see. We're a narrow minded speices.]]]]

No we're not. We're capable of being free. You've been lied too again. I am evidence of this.

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[[[[ I mean we can only grasp so much. ]]]]

But somehow God couldn't make us to grasp himself? And then he has the nerve to condemn us all to hell for not grasping him? You don't see the error in that?

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[[[We can't know EVERYTHING. It's impossible. ]]]]

Why should you NEED to? Why even care? Why not just live life as you were meant to? Like a human being as a part of this world. Not as a slave to a being you can't understand...let alone you will never fully know exists..and hense you can't really believe in him.

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[[[[God does he knows what will happen and he alows it to because every action that happends effects something else. ]]]]

You can't possibly know that. By stating this you suggest you know God's plan. You pretend to know the motives of a being you just admitted we know nothing about. And can't know nothing about. You contradicted yourself.

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[[[[We might not see it but it does. Our conversation tonight was ment to happen.]]]]

Not really. I could have easily stayed in bed. I chose to discuss this with you. This wasn't a divine act any more then me deciding when yo get up and take a piss.

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[[[[ If it didn't we would have both been at a loss. ]]]]

Why? I used to be a christian. I walked in your shoes. When was the last time you walked in mine?

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[[[[Maybe we would have had it at a later date, but we would be different people then. ]]]]

Doubtable.

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[[[[Everyday we're someoen different from the one we were before. ]]]]

No. We're the same people. Perhaps our situations change, but people rarely do.

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[[[[God puts things in our lives to teach us something.]]]]

That sort of is a kick in the pants to your parents, teachers, friends and family who used their knowledge and experience to teach you things. You even admitted earlier God doesn't interfere with us...he does not have any physical reality. So which is it? Does he have a physical reality whee he interferes, or doesn't he? You need to decide.

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[[[[ Maybe not believeing in God, will lead you to be a stronger believer because somewhere along the line God will show you who he is in a way that no one will ever be able to understand but you. ]]]]

You didn't read that link I sent you, did you?

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[[[Or maybe he won't... I don't know, because I do believe and will never fully understand how you can't believe.]]]]

Perhaps because you are too afraid to ask questions or read what I'm saying?

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[[[[ I've seen to many things happen in my life not to believe. ]]]]

I've seen many things in my life not to believe in aliens living in my ears.

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[[[[I know some people would say it was doctors, or my own hard work, but without my faith I wouldn't be where I am today. ]]]]

Without that giant diamond the size of a refrigerator in my back yard I would never be who I am today.

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[[[[There's a saying, "God doesn't give us anything we can't handel. I just wish he wouldn't trust me so much."]]]]

That's just regurgitated belief handed back to you. That isn't any more evidence for God then is if I changed "God" to aliens in my ears.

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[[[[ I think this is true. I mean there's a limit. There's a reason why when things get bad there's a turning point.]]]]

It's called random events. Sometimes there isn't a turning point. For a lot of people there isn't a turning point. In fact..people commit suicide, go to war and kill people because there isn't a turning point.

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[[[[ There's going to be an end to suffering because if there's not we'll just kill ourselfes off... ]]]

And that is a possibility which may yet happen...if people don't start to see things for how they really are, and not for what they want it to be. Your opinions and my opinions are irrelevant, and all that matters is the facts. One of my favorite quotes from a friend of mine is the following:

"How many more gods must we forget through time before we realize that we make ALL of them up?" - The Infidel Guy

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