David Siegel doesn't need to wait to lay people off...

Sapient's picture

 David Siegel of Westgate Resorts doesn't need to wait for Romney to get elected to start laying people off, he can start now. Plenty of people will boycott Westgate Resorts as a result of his ridiculously stupid and improper email.  He's a billionaire who clearly is so self absorbed he cares little of his employees who he strikes fear into in an attempt to coerce them to voting for Romney.  

These are the resorts you can start boycotting now: http://westgateresorts.com/  No need for a timeshare with Westgate... why line this jerk-offs pockets?   

Quote:

On Monday he sent an e-mail to all 7,000 employees of privately-held Westgate Resorts, many of them in the battleground state of Florida, warning them their jobs are at risk if the president is re-elected.
"The economy doesn't currently pose a threat to your job. What does threaten your job however, is another 4 years of the same Presidential administration," he said in the e-mail. source: CNN

http://money.cnn.com/2012/10/09/news/economy/siegel-email-employees/index.html

 

David Siegel's self indulgent actions follow after he took credit for earning 2,000 votes for Bush in the 2000 election...

Quote:

David Siegel, the Florida real estate mogul behind timeshare company Westgate Resorts, claims that he was "personally responsible" for George W. Bush's 2000 presidential victory. When the subject comes up in a newly released documentary, Siegel declines to elaborate, stating, "it may not necessarily have been legal." source: Huff Post

 

This is the full letter that David Siegel sent...

Quote:

To All My Valued Employees,


As most of you know our company, Westgate Resorts, has continued to succeed in spite of a very dismal economy. There is no question that the economy has changed for the worse and we have not seen any improvement over the past four years. In spite of all of the challenges we have faced, the good news is this: The economy doesn't currently pose a threat to your job. What does threaten your job however, is another 4 years of the same Presidential administration. Of course, as your employer, I can't tell you whom to vote for, and I certainly wouldn't interfere with your right to vote for whomever you choose. In fact, I encourage you to vote for whomever you think will serve your interests the best.

However, let me share a few facts that might help you decide what is in your best interest.The current administration and members of the press have perpetuated an environment that casts employers against employees. They want you to believe that we live in a class system where the rich get richer, the poor get poorer. They label us the "1%" and imply that we are somehow immune to the challenges that face our country. This could not be further from the truth. Sure, you may have heard about the big home that I'm building. I'm sure many people think that I live a privileged life. However, what you don't see or hear is the true story behind any success that I have achieved.

I started this company over 42 years ago. At that time, I lived in a very modest home. I converted my garage into an office so I could put forth 100% effort into building a company, which by the way, would eventually employ you. We didn't eat in fancy restaurants or take expensive vacations because every dollar I made went back into this company. I drove an old used car, and often times, I stayed home on weekends, while my friends went out drinking and partying. In fact, I was married to my business -- hard work, discipline, and sacrifice. Meanwhile, many of my friends got regular jobs. They worked 40 hours a week and made a nice income, and they spent every dime they earned. They drove flashy cars and lived in expensive homes and wore fancy designer clothes. My friends refinanced their mortgages and lived a life of luxury. I, however, did not. I put my time, my money, and my life into this business ---with a vision that eventually, some day, I too, will be able to afford to buy whatever I wanted. Even to this day, every dime I earn goes back into this company. Over the past four years I have had to stop building my dream house, cut back on all of my expenses, and take my kids out of private schools simply to keep this company strong and to keep you employed.

Just think about this - most of you arrive at work in the morning and leave that afternoon and the rest of your time is yours to do as you please. But not me- there is no "off" button for me. When you leave the office, you are done and you have a weekend all to yourself. I unfortunately do not have that freedom. I eat, live, and breathe this company every minute of the day, every day of the week. There is no rest. There is no weekend. There is no happy hour. I know many of you work hard and do a great job, but I'm the one who has to sign every check, pay every expense, and make sure that this company continues to succeed. Unfortunately, what most people see is the nice house and the lavish lifestyle. What the press certainly does not want you to see, is the true story of the hard work and sacrifices I've made.

Now, the economy is falling apart and people like me who made all the right decisions and invested in themselves are being forced to bail out all the people who didn't. The people that overspent their paychecks suddenly feel entitled to the same luxuries that I earned and sacrificed 42 years of my life for. Yes, business ownership has its benefits, but the price I've paid is steep and not without wounds. Unfortunately, the costs of running a business have gotten out of control, and let me tell you why: We are being taxed to death and the government thinks we don't pay enough. We pay state taxes, federal taxes, property taxes, sales and use taxes, payroll taxes, workers compensation taxes and unemployment taxes. I even have to hire an entire department to manage all these taxes. The question I have is this: Who is really stimulating the economy? Is it the Government that wants to take money from those who have earned it and give it to those who have not, or is it people like me who built a company out of his garage and directly employs over 7000 people and hosts over 3 million people per year with a great vacation?

Obviously, our present government believes that taking my money is the right economic stimulus for this country. The fact is, if I deducted 50% of your paycheck you'd quit and you wouldn't work here. I mean, why should you? Who wants to get rewarded only 50% of their hard work? Well, that's what happens to me. Here is what most people don't understand and the press and our Government has chosen to ignore - to stimulate the economy you need to stimulate what runs the economy. Instead of raising my taxes and depositing that money into the Washington black-hole, let me spend it on growing the company, hire more employees, and generate substantial economic growth. My employees will enjoy the wealth of that tax cut in the form of promotions and better salaries. But that is not what our current Government wants you to believe. They want you to believe that it somehow makes sense to take more from those who create wealth and give it to those who do not, and somehow our economy will improve. They don't want you to know that the "1%", as they like to label us, pay more than 31% of all the taxes in this country. Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

Business is at the heart of America and always has been. To restart it, you must stimulate business, not kill it. However, the power brokers in Washington believe redistributing wealth is the essential driver of the American economic engine. Nothing could be further from the truth and this is the type of change they want. So where am I going with all this? It's quite simple. If any new taxes are levied on me, or my company, as our current President plans, I will have no choice but to reduce the size of this company. Rather than grow this company I will be forced to cut back. This means fewer jobs, less benefits and certainly less opportunity for everyone.

So, when you make your decision to vote, ask yourself, which candidate understands the economics of business ownership and who doesn't? Whose policies will endanger your job? Answer those questions and you should know who might be the one capable of protecting and saving your job. While the media wants to tell you to believe the "1 percenters" are bad, I'm telling you they are not. They create most of the jobs. If you lose your job, it won't be at the hands of the "1%"; it will be at the hands of a political hurricane that swept through this country.

You see, I can no longer support a system that penalizes the productive and gives to the unproductive. My motivation to work and to provide jobs will be destroyed, and with it, so will your opportunities. If that happens, you can find me in the Caribbean sitting on the beach, under a palm tree, retired, and with no employees to worry about.

 

Signed, your boss

 



 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.

Brian37's picture

Translation, "Thanks for

Translation, "Thanks for making me rich, but since you are not rich like me, you are lazy fucks"

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Brian37's picture

Here is the ultimate irony

Here is the ultimate irony of his fuck you to his employees. What is he going to do himself? He is going to take all that money he made off the LABOR of the people who did the bulk of the work to get him where he is at, AND SIT ON A BEACH AND DO NOTHING.

 

Now here is the difference between this buttfuck asshole and his workers. No one would turn him down if he made a lottery and turned the keys over to anyone of his employess and made them the owner. Nor would anyone of them mind sitting on a beach and doing nothing.

THE DIFFERENCE IS his own workers if the rolls were reversed would not stand on his shoulders and piss on him like he is pissing on them.

Poor poor rich guy life sucks for you so much doesn't it? Would you like a little whine with your cheese bullshit?

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Sinphanius's picture

Um, you do realize that,

Um, you do realize that, even if the Barackstar gets elected again and he does go through with this idiotic ultimatum he has delivered, that that is pretty much what will happen right? He's not going to just leave and let all of his property rot, he'll sell it, and it will probably be bought by other resort chains or people who want to run resort chains, and most of his employees probably won't notice any major change once the light remodelling to change the Name of the Resort is done.

Quote:
THE DIFFERENCE IS his own workers if the rolls were reversed would not stand on his shoulders and piss on him like he is pissing on them.

Ah, it's cute that you think that.  Because clearly no worker has ever wanted to get back at their boss.  No, workers are all perfect saints, the Glorious Proletariat, the Common Man, The Salt of the Earth.

You know... morons.

Queue massive 'Rebuttal' with tons of all caps words lambasting me for thinking life is a script and putting billionaires on a pedestal and thinking money is everything and hating the poor downtrodden saintly workers of the world and quoting some random billionaire because that totally isn't an appeal to authority and yadda yadda yadda which will of course not actually be able to point to a single specific thing I have ever said to justify this pronouncement.

When you say it like that you make it sound so Sinister...

Brian37's picture

Yea workers DO want to get

Yea workers DO want to get back at their owners and tell me why that is a bad thing? Even China is increasingly having protests by workers.

If you knew a fucking thing about evolution you'd know that while being the alpha male can be a benifet it can also be selfish. If the subordinates do not have some relitive degree of survival they will try to knock off the alpha male. Longjevity on the top depends on those on top giving enough to the subordinates.

 

Inequity exists in evolution so no one should expect that to change in economics. But just like a fish tank, if the gap in temp between the top and bottom get too wide, the subordinates will rebel.

 

It is idiotic to assume those at the bottom hate the top for merley being on top. Our Constitution is an anti monopoly law banning absolute power and monopolies of power. It is dependent on how well the least are treated, not how much the top can get away with.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Beyond Saving's picture

 Wow, what a selfish

 Wow, what a selfish asshole, he wants to employ people and make money. *gasp* Can you believe that shit is happening is the USSA? There is an increasingly large number of business people who are developing the attitude of "fuck it, it isn't worth the effort" and it is one of the reasons why people are not investing in new businesses. I don't think it is a statistically important number, yet. But the blind class warfare hatred promoted by Bama & Co. doesn't help and doesn't encourage people like Mr. Siegel to keep working. He has his and can go sit under the palm tree at any time.

He probably won't because people like him continue working because they truly love what they do and selling off something you worked your whole life to build is emotionally difficult. He probably wrote the e-mail while he was in a bad mood- it isn't fun to be hated for doing nothing other than improving the lives of everyone around you. Mr. Siegel made life better for all of his employees and for the millions of people who enjoy his resorts and in exchange for improving their lives he is hated. Sometimes, it makes a guy want to say fuck all of you and leave. I understand it, I have had the same feeling myself from time to time. 

Sinphanius has a point that even if Siegel does say fuck it and quits, some large corporation will buy the resort and things will more or less continue as normal. I do argue that large companies that are ran by corporate boards are inferior to large companies owned by a single talented and interested person. Corporations tend to become bureaucratic and inefficient which usually leads to an inferior product, poorer customer service and poorer treatment of employees. Eventually they fail to be profitable and either go bankrupt or merge with a younger company. For the long term health of a company I think it is usually a negative when the founder retires, dies or otherwise leaves the company, although the difference is often not noticed for several decades. 

I think the far more immediate economic impact is on those who are on the lower end of the "rich". Those who make 200-500k and have businesses that are too small to effectively attract purchasers or are facing the decision of whether or not to put the effort into expanding into what might become a multi-billion dollar company. When those people decide to cash in or to stay small it hurts the economy at large and I see that happening quite a bit right now. Especially with the healthcare laws putting all sorts of extra restrictions on companies with more than 50 employees. Hiring that 50th employee suddenly becomes a huge decision with numerous financial ramifications and a certain number of people are going to decide not to take that step which is harmful to the economy and lowers the number of employment opportunities.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X

EXC's picture

Brian37 wrote:If you knew a

Brian37 wrote:

If you knew a fucking thing about evolution you'd know that while being the alpha male can be a benifet it can also be selfish. If the subordinates do not have some relitive degree of survival they will try to knock off the alpha male. Longjevity on the top depends on those on top giving enough to the subordinates.

 

Inequity exists in evolution so no one should expect that to change in economics. But just like a fish tank, if the gap in temp between the top and bottom get too wide, the subordinates will rebel.

OK Mr. Evolution then explain why it's in any one's evolutionary interest to give someone else something for free or to overpay for something? Which is exactly what we have with entitlements an Obama care.

If you really understood evolution you would support a system of rational cooperation. Many conservatives and moderates would support a system where people in need were enrolled in intensive job training so they could pay for their benefits on their own and have to rely on Obama to force employers.

But you want entitlements. I should take care of other people and their offspring and not be assured of getting anything in return.  Why should I help people I'm competing against? Explain Mr. Evolution how entitlements make sense?

The fact is everyone is lazy and selfish. Why would someone work more than they need or for the sole benefit of others? The fact that leftists like you demand entitlement and not job training show that the real agenda is to enable laziness.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca

Brian37's picture

Fuck you asshole, health

Fuck you asshole, health care is not an entitlement. Neither is food or shelter. We all need them. Now if you want to talk about over paying, you tell me exactly what big business such as banks and oil, and health care insurance and medical drug compainies do other than FUCKING OVER CHARGE to pad the wallets of the ceos and shareholders. If anyone is getting a free ride off the backs of bloated prices and government wealfare, they do.

No us "leftests" are not as lazy as someone who sits at a fucking desk and never gets their hands dirty.

Now you are right in that humans do seek to be lazy otherwise we wouldn't invent cars or planes or computers, which are certainly faster than hourses or an abacus.

 

The difference is that you treat poverty as a crime. We don't. You can stand on your pearch and look down on us, but YOU are the one with the problem not us.

NOW FOR THE LAST FUCKING TIME ASSHOLE, NO ONE, NO ONE GIVES A SHIT THAT YOU MAKE MORE OR THAT SMOME PEOPLE GET RICH. WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK!

What we do care about is that when assholes like you stand on the shoulders of others, you piss on them as if they don't matter. Your let them eat cake crap isn't going to fly or your false accusation of nanny state. BULLSHIT, ALL IF IT!

 

You are childishly trying to use the same fear tactics believers do "If you don't believe in god, then you must be evil".

 

It is bad enough the social right wing eats the pussy of Fuxs news, but it irratates the shit out of me even moreso when an atheist does it. Go fuck Ayan Rand, her pussy is as old as your arguments and just as DEAD.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

EXC's picture

Brian37 wrote:Fuck you

Brian37 wrote:

Fuck you asshole, health care is not an entitlement. Neither is food or shelter. We all need them.

If you believed that, then you want to build an economy and a society where these are sustainable. Instead it's provide them by bankrupting society and the government. Then everyone can starve.

Brian37 wrote:

Now if you want to talk about over paying, you tell me exactly what big business such as banks and oil, and health care insurance and medical drug compainies do other than FUCKING OVER CHARGE to pad the wallets of the ceos and shareholders. If anyone is getting a free ride off the backs of bloated prices and government wealfare, they do.

I'm the one that has explained over and over how entitlements provide wealth to corporations and the already wealthy at the expense of workers.

Brian37 wrote:

NOW FOR THE LAST FUCKING TIME ASSHOLE, NO ONE, NO ONE GIVES A SHIT THAT YOU MAKE MORE OR THAT SMOME PEOPLE GET RICH. WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK!

Wow. You sure get pretty emotional about something you don't even care about. And when did I ever mention anything about what I make or don't make?

The fact is that you and your fellow members of the 47% just want free stuff. If you really were these hard working/studying folks as you claim, instead of demanding free entilements, you would be demanding job training so you could pay for your healthcare yourself. But instead you demand free stuff and your OK with an education system that doesn't get people to study hard. So by your actions you prove that Romney's 47% comments are essentially correct.

You explain to me then why someone that goes without health insurance for 10 years is not demanding job training but instead entitlements. Don't give me this crap about the rich are all out to deny it from you. There are pleanty of jobs people can train for that would enable them to buy it.

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca

Sapient's picture

 Brian, take it down like

 Brian, take it down like 25 notches.  wow.

 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.

digitalbeachbum's picture

Brian37 wrote:Yea workers DO

Brian37 wrote:

Yea workers DO want to get back at their owners and tell me why that is a bad thing? Even China is increasingly having protests by workers.

If you knew a fucking thing about evolution you'd know that while being the alpha male can be a benefit it can also be selfish. If the subordinates do not have some relative degree of survival they will try to knock off the alpha male. Longevity on the top depends on those on top giving enough to the subordinates.

Inequity exists in evolution so no one should expect that to change in economics. But just like a fish tank, if the gap in temp between the top and bottom get too wide, the subordinates will rebel.

It is idiotic to assume those at the bottom hate the top for merely being on top. Our Constitution is an anti monopoly law banning absolute power and monopolies of power. It is dependent on how well the least are treated, not how much the top can get away with.

If you are saying that David Siegel is an "alpha male" you are incorrect, the guy is a psychopathic liar.

And given enough time the GOP will subvert our Constitution as they are doing slowly in all the states.

 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

-Scott Adams

digitalbeachbum's picture

1 - Health care shouldn't be

1 - Health care shouldn't be connected to your job. This is a left over procedure which was used to convince workers that you should go to work for "X" company.

2 - David Seigel is a psychopathic liar. If you haven't followed entire drama going on down here about the documentary of his "house" then I suggest you read up on it. His wife is equally as sick and they both are so completely out of touch with reality that it baffles the mind.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-03-14/versailles-the-would-be-biggest-house-in-america

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-06-14/business/os-timeshare-mansion-film-20120614_1_david-siegel-time-share-empire-time-s...

http://southtownstar.suntimes.com/entertainment/movies/15662518-421/queen-of-versailles-an-escape-that-turns-somber.html

3 - There is no balance in the American Government, even though there has been slight improvements in the last four years. The truth is that the right wing religious want to transform America, as well, so do the right wing wealthy and the political special interest groups. The all want their piece of the pie and they will let others suffer so that they can eat it.

4 - Did I already mention that there was a lack of balance? America has too many people who are using the system to skip out on their responsibility. The system has been corrupted by both the wealthy and the poor; and the middle class suffers for it.

 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

-Scott Adams

Brian37's picture

Sapient wrote: Brian, take

Sapient wrote:

 Brian, take it down like 25 notches.  wow.

 

 

Brian, there are few things I get this upset about but I do take this personally. I have been working over half my life now and throughout that time have seen the misstreatment and badmouthing from people who live in bubbles and stand on those who put them where they are at and get treated like shit. It isn't just about me.

It is about badmouthing decent people whom merely make less. There is absolutely no honest job that is un important or unskilled. I am tired of people like Beyond and Ex looking down on others as if they are trash.

I do not want to see this country "compete" the way China does and see the middle class dissapear and replaced with slave wages and sweat shops which is where the uber libertarians and Ayan Rand nuts will take us.

I get tired of being falsely accused of wanting a nanny state. I get tired of being falsely accused of wanting to end private business. I get tired of being falsely accused of hating wealth. I am sick of the exploding pay gap and over bloated conflation of profits at the expense of the working class.

Time after time I have pointed out economists who agree with me. I have pointed out RICH people who agree with me. I take this personally because it is hurting me personally and not just me but everyone I work with.

I simply want them to wake up and stop pretending nothing the rich do affects others. I want them to stop pretending they did it all by themselves. I want them to stop badmouthing people and treating poverty like a crime.

I did not write the laws that set our economy up to crash like it did. I did not all by myself over the past 30 years set up wages to stagnate while the top keeps going up. I did not send all the manufacturing overseas. I did not hand out bad bank loans or treat Wall Street like a giant ponzy scheme.

You own a business but unlike the mindset of Beyond, Ex you care. You see the importance of the stability of the employee. You understand. But not enough of those at the top do. If the majority of business owners thought like you, our economy never would have gotten into this mess.

 

They tout "less government" which sounds nice on paper. But they fail to realize that that "less government" depends on self policing. And they also fail to see like government, private business is a human venture and can be abused and monopolized like any government.

 

I have tried to meet them half way by telling them DIRECT investment and lower cost of living will set conditions to allow employees to be less dependent. You admitted that part time employees have less incentive to care. And I am also living proof that when you only have one job you have more energy to be more productive. I only survive with the help of my mother. But I am still the most productive employee where I work. And I find it sad that a retired teacher has more compassion than most of the uber rich.

 

The bottom line is that things cannot continue like they are. The middle class and working poor cannot survive on less and less which is the road we are going down. If it were just me, they might have a case. But it is not me it is the selfish narcissism that only they matter and only they do the work. They have no right to scapegoat the other two classes when they were the ones that wrecked the car.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Sapient's picture

Brian37 wrote:Brian, there

Brian37 wrote:

Brian, there are few things I get this upset about but I do take this personally. I have been working over half my life now and throughout that time have seen the misstreatment and badmouthing from people who live in bubbles and stand on those who put them where they are at and get treated like shit. It isn't just about me.

I'm one of those being treated like shit.  I don't see anything that Beyond or EX are saying that either of us should take personally.  They have a different opinion than you and I.  Maybe they have a little less empathy but that doesn't mean they hate you, they just relate less to you.  Nothing worth taking personal.  If you want to persuade them, it's not going to be by calling them assholes.

 

Quote:
It is about badmouthing decent people whom merely make less. There is absolutely no honest job that is un important or unskilled. I am tired of people like Beyond and Ex looking down on others as if they are trash.

I'm not getting that vibe. 

You shouldn't take things so personal.  Respond to the arguments in as level headed manner as you can and you'll get further.

 

 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.

Brian37's picture

On the issues of economics I

On the issues of economics I do take it personally because outside this board there are real life affects, not only on me, but everyone around me.

They cannot relate, and until they lose what they have, they wont. What kills me is that they think I want them to lose. No, I only want to get back at the climate, not individuals. And they take it personally too, because they FALSELY constantly equate our objections to the climate, as being direct robbery on our part.

I am crass more for the readers on my side to value themselves to the point more and more of us stop putting up with this climate. I am trying to light a fire for change. And I will pull my fangs back but It is hard for me on this issue because I live it every day.

I also get tired of repeating that I am happy they and you own businesses. I don't want our economy to fail, and I am sure they want the same. The contention is HOW we maintain our open market. I do not see 30 years of trickle down working. I do not see the exploding cost of living and stagnant and falling wages working. I see their idea of competition as a race to the bottom.

And all I see libertarians as is a repbulican on steroids. I just want them to explain at what point will they say "I have enough", when I work 16 hour days for 2 dollars a day? When EMT workers are allowed to deny me aid when I am bleeding from a car accident because I cant pay? Because if that is what they think the solution is then that is nothing but social engineering through indentured slavery.

They personally may as individuals pay their workers well, but we are NOT talking about individuals, but a climate that is driving down the bottom two classes further and further with no value to investment and more corperate wellfare.

I want to scream every time they cry about having more than those bellow them as if they are eating cat food. It is absolutely nuts.

It also unerves me that they cannot or will not take me at my word when I say I want them to be happy and successful. But if all of us agree here that the HOW is the argument and not the conclusion, then they should be willing to do the same and at a minumum agree that the conclusion of where all of us want society is NOT the issue, but how we get there.

The history of economics since the great depression up until now is NOT on their side. While there have been points of "less government", it also came with investment and personal responsibiility on the part of the top and HIGHER tax rates too boot.

How far down do they want people in the middle class and working poor to go? I just don't see how stepping on the necks of the working class will benefit either them or the business owner. We have lived under their script and I fail to see how more of the same is going to help any class including them. All I see their plan doing is making it worse for more people while making fewer people stable.

For you I will try to make an effort to tone it down. But I cant afford not to blast this insane push by the right to turn us into indentured slaves. When I hear "poor me" comming from that class I just want to pull my hair out. Not all people in that class pull that "poor me" garbage, but far too many do.

I don't think it is too much to ask for a climate change in attitude. No one wants to end the free market. No one wants private business to go away. Most people simply want to live their lives without starving to death. I have repeatedly said over and over that I do not hate personal wealth(by itself) just the attitude that the economic climate has fostered long term.

We have one nation, not one class. We have one government, not one class. We is not "of the rich, only for the rich". As  non-business owner, sure, I can do some things by myself. I can clean my own house. But someone has to build the roads that those products get shipped on. Someone has to work as the clerk where I buy those cleaning products at. Someone has to teach that future CEO in grade school.

Someone has to do that work that the business owner does not want to do themselves or cant do by themselves. The truth they don't want to face is that as a social species it is physically impossible to live on and island and do everything yourself. The working class has been for far too long the scapegoats and have also been the ones bailing out the bubbles caused by the top.

So if I can adimit it is OK to be rich, I do not think it is unreasonable to get upset when there is no recipocation in saying "you are not a criminal for having less than me or not wanting as much as me". If the climate were not "push em down further" and we were valued, I think they would find long term that we all would be better off, including them.

In conclusion, I do not on an individual level think either Beyond or Ex are litterally baby eaters.And I wish that they would genuinely accept that I am happy for business owners. But the positions they support are killers to human stability. They cannot see that ANYTHING left without checks on it can go off the rails. Our economy is off the rails because our local climate and global climate is one that is increasing slave wages and erroding the stability of more people.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Brian37's picture

Actually, not that this

Actually, not that this example will reach them, I just thought of this.

I just ran into my prior owners wife. They sold the place I work at, not because it was failing, but because it was becoming too stressful on her husband who was having health issues. I ran into her in a food Lion 2 days ago. They regret selling the place to our current owner because of what he did to all of us as far as cuts. They are business owners too. But that isn't enough for people like Beyond or Ex. She and her husband KNEW what they had and valued us. So it is not impossible for overlap in classes as far as common intrest.

What would they say to her if she could talk to them directly, "He has the right to do what he wants he bought it and he owns it",

She would respond, "Yea, legal and moral are two different things, and I doubt you understand how valuable people like Brian are".

I could see the disqust in her eyes. That place was their baby and not just an ATM machine and we were family and not mere tools. Ex and Beyond see numbers and ink, but fail to see that their are humans behind that. My prior owners did not. And far too much of the corporate world thinks like that instead of my prior bosses.

So the change I am looking for IS NOT a nanny state. If my prior bosses can see beyond ink, so can they and so can our entire economy. Making money is not evil nor is business ownership. But what is evil is stepping on people like they are just paper and ink.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

EXC's picture

Have you ever considered

Have you ever considered that the reason you are 'treated like shit' by employers or not hired by good employers is that you don't have a skill they really need? You are treated like an illegal immigrant because that is who you are competing against.

So why the fuck are you pissed off a me and BS and all the super rich? Why aren't you pissed off at the education system? Why aren't you pissed off at not having adult retaining to get you into a job where you have some negotiating power?

What you're saying I should do is be happy with an education system that continues to pump out graduates or dropouts that can't take care of themselves. That are unqualified for the available jobs that could provide healthcare and a living wage. To keep paying schools and teachers unions that fail. And because the government fails so miserably at this, I need to pay even more for welfare for these people. You have to be nuts to support the present insanity.

I'm for giving people welfare benefits and healtcare if they are in a real job training programs that work. I'm not the strawman you have in your imagination.

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca

Brian37's picture

Quote:employers is that you

Quote:
employers is that you don't have a skill they really need?

You want to talk to my co-workers and ask them if i am "unskilled". You stupidly equate low pay to no skill. You wouldn't last 7 years at my position with that snobish attitude. And if I owned where I work and you pulled that snobish attitude with me I wouldn't hire you. And my former owners wouldn't either.

You want to know how stupid your logic is? Lets stop all trash collecting all over the United States for a month. Let your trash pile up next to your house and see how far that snobish attitude gets you. A month of that and you'll be begging for some "unskilled" looser to pick it up.

I am damned good at what I do and I refuse to be ashamed of it because you are stuck on utopias yourself like theist is on religion.

Every job requires skill. If you want to measure yourself based on the amount of stuff you own, I feel sorry for you.

Do not project yourself on me assuming that I want or should be like you. In a three class system it takes all of us. You are not the center of the universe. Remember that when that "looser" picks up your trash.

There are business owners and wealthy people who DONT do what you are doing here. My prior bosses didn't. They valued me and they saw me as skilled. You look down on those making less as if they are trash.

There will ALWAYS be those who do low paid jobs. The key is not to treat them like trash like you are doing. The key isn't to outlaw business. The key isn't to create a nanny state. The key is to address the climate and reduce the cost of living and STOP pushing the middle class and working poor down further.

If you want me to be happy with your desires than don't be a hypocrite and claim I have no right to mine. I am happy with what I do for a living, but wanting less or having less is not a crime like you want to treat it.  I Dare you to come do what I do on Easter Sunday, even if you made it through the day, people like you would never last at it. So instead of childishly trying to put me down and litterally push me down. If you cant or wont do it yourself, then kindly refrain from passing judgement on me.

You are living in a bubble and don't even see it or how it contributes to the climate that lead to this mess. I really feel sorry for you in that you truely think that pay and title are the only thing that matters.

There will always be in a three class system THREE CLASSES. And since you cant live on an island and do what you do all by yourself, I would suggest you live in the real world where EVERYONE matters and pay scale does not negate the contribution even with the acceptance that inequaty has to exist in a three class system.

No one wants to pull you down but you are foolish to think that our pay gap can continue to explode. No one is trying to tell you not to own a business. But you are only ONE part of it, not all of it.

I am seriously trying to bite my lip right now for the sake of Sapient, and deep down I know you are not a bad person, but your attitude is in a very litteral sense threating the lives of others. Not on an individual level, but the climate you buy into.

If that trash collector or janitor cant pay their bills or has to go to the hospital, you are threatening them with your mindset, you are basically treating a fellow human as litterally disposable like a matchbook or lighter. Use em up and spit em out, if they don't move up, then the "low skill" job is meaningless and unimportant. Humans are not objects or numbers. They are faces and familys that you affect, knowingly and unwittingly with no regards to their condition and then in sick fassion scapegoat anyone who does not subscribe to your script.

Life is a range and humans are a range, and if you bothered to spend any time with the people I know and work with NONE OF THEM, including me, begrudge those with more. What we object to is your jaded attitude as if we deserve to be trash.

I will keep repeating this, not for your benefit, because I think that is wasting my time. I am saying this to those in the middle class and to the working poor that you do count and you do matter and collectivelly we don't have to put up with more of the same. We let the top run the game and rig the game and all we got was less pay and higher cost of living. All we got was stuck with the bill when they wreked the car.

If anyone reading this thinks Ex is right and I am wrong, move to China, maybe Ex can find you work at a sweat shop he invested in. That is where the middle class and working poor are headed. It may be Ex idea of competition, but the race to the bottom will never be mine.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

digitalbeachbum's picture

EXC wrote:Have you ever

EXC wrote:

Have you ever considered that the reason you are 'treated like shit' by employers or not hired by good employers is that you don't have a skill they really need? You are treated like an illegal immigrant because that is who you are competing against.

So why the fuck are you pissed off a me and BS and all the super rich? Why aren't you pissed off at the education system? Why aren't you pissed off at not having adult retaining to get you into a job where you have some negotiating power?

He's usually pissed off about some subject on any given day, depending on what buttons you push.

 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

-Scott Adams

Brian37's picture

I do get pissed off about

I do get pissed off about lots of things, so? But this out of all the things I get pissed off about IS just as important if not more than most of the crap I bitch about.

There is a false assumption on the part of my detractors that "we" meaning those in the middle and bottom want to pull them down. There is the false assumption that we have som loylty test that the only way to  "prove" yourself is to be poor. It is absurd logic and fearmongering that they buy into.

Saying "address the pay gap", address the cost of living, is not a call to end the open market or end private wealth. And having pride in what you do for a living even at low pay is NOT a crime and I am tired of that mindset.

This does push my buttons because in my 30 years of working I have seen decent people trampled on for no other reason than an intitlement mentality by "might makes right and money equals power. Not all in business have that mentality, as per the example I gave and keep giving. But the overal climate is dominated by the slash and burn mentality. And unfortunately that is a global mentality as well.

If someone has an honest job no matter what the pay, they ARE contributing. That is not a call to rob the rich. Asking the top to stop pushing the rest of us down is not a demand to end private wealth. Now I will say, if they wont work with us on their own, then I see no reason why I should not use the same voting booth they do.

So yea, it is pushing my buttons and if some middle class or working poor person reads this and it moves them to stand up for themselves, I will continue. They can say whatever they want about me, but they cannot take away my voice or my vote.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

digitalbeachbum's picture

What about those people who

What about those people who don't deserve the assistance?

Beyond Saving's picture

digitalbeachbum wrote:1 -

digitalbeachbum wrote:

1 - Health care shouldn't be connected to your job. This is a left over procedure which was used to convince workers that you should go to work for "X" company.

Agreed the whole reason offering health benefits started was to evade taxes and has frequently been used by employers to make it more difficult for employees to quit. It is pretty stupid to be dependent upon your employer for your healthcare, unfortunately most Americans don't get this. 

 

 

digitalbeachbum wrote:

4 - Did I already mention that there was a lack of balance? America has too many people who are using the system to skip out on their responsibility. The system has been corrupted by both the wealthy and the poor; and the middle class suffers for it.

Ah yes, the sacred middle class is clean and pure as the wind driven snow- their shit doesn't stink and no one in the middle class ever skipped out on their responsibilities and say....ran up massive credit card debts and stopped paying their mortgage, why all our problems are solely because of the evil rich and those smelly poor people. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X

Beyond Saving's picture

 I don't recall ever

 I don't recall ever badmouthing anyone for working any job. I don't particularly give a flying fuck how much or how little money you make, it makes no difference to me. I simply observe that when you work a low wage job it isn't a surprise that you get paid a low wage and when Bamacare is implemented it is the low wage jobs that employers will find a way to cut or consolidate because they are going to be unable or unwilling to pay the extra expense for health insurance.  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X

digitalbeachbum's picture

Beyond Saving wrote:Ah yes,

Beyond Saving wrote:

Ah yes, the sacred middle class is clean and pure as the wind driven snow- their shit doesn't stink and no one in the middle class ever skipped out on their responsibilities and say....ran up massive credit card debts and stopped paying their mortgage, why all our problems are solely because of the evil rich and those smelly poor people. 

Never said their shit doesn't smell. I know plenty of douche bags who took out 300k against their inflated housing value, then when the market fell, they jumped ship.

I knew people who were wealthy who went to the emergency room to get care because they didn't have insurance, but they had several million in the bank. They knew that there was no reason for insurance because they would still get the same care if the did have it. Is this cheap? Yeah, it's pretty lame. Is it legal? Well yes, under the current system it is.

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

-Scott Adams

Beyond Saving's picture

Brian37 wrote:There is a

Brian37 wrote:

There is a false assumption on the part of my detractors that "we" meaning those in the middle and bottom want to pull them down. There is the false assumption that we have som loylty test that the only way to  "prove" yourself is to be poor. It is absurd logic and fearmongering that they buy into.

Saying "address the pay gap", address the cost of living, is not a call to end the open market or end private wealth. And having pride in what you do for a living even at low pay is NOT a crime and I am tired of that mindset.

Then why do you continually refuse to address the pay gap by getting a higher paying job? That is, if you grant your assumption that the pay gap is a bad thing. I do not, I don't care whether there is a pay gap or not nor care how large it is and you have yet to make a coherent argument for why I should worry about it. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X

EXC's picture

Brian37 wrote:If someone has

Brian37 wrote:

If someone has an honest job no matter what the pay, they ARE contributing.

So if I drive out in the middle of the desert and decide to dig a ditch that no wants and has no benefit to anyone and I get paid nothing, I'm contributing???

It has to serve a useful purpose to someone. And the other problem is oversupply of unskilled laborers.

The statements you make like this are your own moral judgements but thay have nothing at all to do with how the real world operates. You're like a religious person that calls something a sin or a virtue. It's meanless toward finding a solution.

 

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca

Brian37's picture

Pork is something both sides

Pork is something both sides of the isle accuse the other of when they don't bring home the bacon for their own constituants and the other guy gets it.

Now you tell me one house you would want to live in with no trash collection. Tell me one restorante you would eat at if the dishes were not washed. Do you want to live in a county or city with absolutely no cops or fire stations? Who cares if pot holes are not filled, well just as long as they fill the ones in the suburbs where you live, right?

Now before you go blasting me saying I am always against all money going to private business, I am not. If it goes to private contractors to build school busses for public schools, or a private contractor going to build a fire house or a cop car, you are still dealing with tax payer funds to pay private contractors to build those things.

Is there waste in government? Sure, but to say our taxes are not being wasted by giving far too much to big business while the "mootchers" live of the rich, is absurd. The very few lazy poor DO NOT constitute the majority of the working poor, but you don't know that because you live in a bubble.

I would say it is a waste and a burdon to cut taxes to the tune of 5 trillion dollars over 10 years to give big corporations money they dont need and on top of that have the gaul to pretend that that wont be passed down to the rest of us. What about private military Contracts republicans clammored for that even the military said they did not want or need? Isn't that a ditch you don't need?

So to answer your question does it make sense to dig a ditch no one will use? No  no more sense than giving coporate welfare to businesses that dont need it who simply sit on it or invest it in cheap labor overseas making indentured slaves out of their citizens.

Now quit trying to shame me over my tax braket or my job title. What I do is valuable and I am tired of you thinking or implying that I am useless because I don't have or want the same things you do.

Quote:
The statements you make like this are your own moral judgements but thay have nothing at all to do with how the real world operates. You're like a religious person that calls something a sin or a virtue. It's meanless toward finding a solution.

What do you think you are doing? I said to you way before you made this post that YOU were acting like a religious person(moreso the mindset and collective climate you buy into).

I was the one saying we were all individuals. I was also the one who said I don't judge every wealthy person the same. Some I like and admire and think are getting the attitude right. And in prior posts and threads I have mentioned them. Don't think those wealthy people make up the majority of the economic climate, but they do exist and can and would do better than the current majority of that top percent.

So now like Mitt Romney, you play to your base for support, but when called out for being judgmental, like him you suddenly pretend to be a regular joe.

You want a solution, I have given you over and over and over that solutiion could be. You don't want to even consider it because you have your head so far sunk into Fox News, you probably have Neil Cavuto's perfume on your collar.

I have no doubt you truely believe in what you have bought, the problem is history and facts are getting in that way.

When you look at the economic conditions that caused the great depression, you see the monopolies and deregulation caused it. When you see what got us out of it it was government investment, in things like our highway system, GI BILL, and projects like the Hoover Dam which is still being used today. Where do you think most of that tax payer money went to? It went to private contractors who made the heavy equiptment that laid the assphalt, and towed the concrete from the private factories they were manufactured at.

We also had higher tax rates from right after the war to the 80s and since then, lawmakers have been paid off by big money to make the laws that solely benefit them, and their bottom lines, not the society as a whole.

So it isn't a matter of not having a solution we do. You simply don't want to do it.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Beyond Saving's picture

Brian37 wrote:I have no

Brian37 wrote:

I have no doubt you truely believe in what you have bought, the problem is history and facts are getting in that way.

lol, you have continually demonstrated your complete ignorance of economic history. For example,

Brian37 wrote:

When you look at the economic conditions that caused the great depression, you see the monopolies and deregulation caused it.

Prove it. Exactly what law was passed before the Great Depression that deregulated? Which monopolies still existed that hadn't been busted by the Sherman Act? 

http://www.rationalresponders.com/history_us_economic_law_part_1

http://www.rationalresponders.com/g_s_or_bi

http://www.rationalresponders.com/history_us_economic_law_part_3_conception_income_tax

http://www.rationalresponders.com/history_us_economic_law_part_4_mckinley_years

http://www.rationalresponders.com/history_us_economic_law_part_5_public_works

http://www.rationalresponders.com/history_us_economic_law_part_6_monopoly

http://www.rationalresponders.com/history_us_economic_law_part_7_regulating_railroads

http://www.rationalresponders.com/history_us_economic_law_part_8_regulating_food

http://www.rationalresponders.com/history_us_economic_law_part_9_laying_groundwork

(I know I haven't added to it for awhile, I have been too busy but I haven't forgotten and will get back to it when the weather turns bad again)

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X

Sapient's picture

 Beyond,  when the new

 Beyond,  when the new site goes live I would be glad to place all those articles into a category and give them a home landing page in which you can write a summary of the series.  It takes some time so I'd rather wait as I anticipate having to do it over for the new site.  Just keep that list of links handy, and feel free to remind me.  

 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.

Brian37's picture

Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

I have no doubt you truely believe in what you have bought, the problem is history and facts are getting in that way.

lol, you have continually demonstrated your complete ignorance of economic history. For example,

Brian37 wrote:

When you look at the economic conditions that caused the great depression, you see the monopolies and deregulation caused it.

Prove it. Exactly what law was passed before the Great Depression that deregulated? Which monopolies still existed that hadn't been busted by the Sherman Act? 

http://www.rationalresponders.com/history_us_economic_law_part_1

http://www.rationalresponders.com/g_s_or_bi

http://www.rationalresponders.com/history_us_economic_law_part_3_conception_income_tax

http://www.rationalresponders.com/history_us_economic_law_part_4_mckinley_years

http://www.rationalresponders.com/history_us_economic_law_part_5_public_works

http://www.rationalresponders.com/history_us_economic_law_part_6_monopoly

http://www.rationalresponders.com/history_us_economic_law_part_7_regulating_railroads

http://www.rationalresponders.com/history_us_economic_law_part_8_regulating_food

http://www.rationalresponders.com/history_us_economic_law_part_9_laying_groundwork

(I know I haven't added to it for awhile, I have been too busy but I haven't forgotten and will get back to it when the weather turns bad again)

No what you are doing is no different than writing "Evidence that demands a virdict". It is like a theist quoting Flew.

WE HAD national investment and higher tax rates to defend WW2 and that built our middle class.

I admit I have never taken an economic course. But I also don't know how to build a car engine. But it does not take a rocket scientist to know that your car does not run on pixy dust.

And I have quoted the names of PLENTY of rich people and economist experts who dissagree with you.

Nick Hanour, Suzie Orman, Robert Reich, Warren Buffet and let me add our newist addition a Fox News turncoat, Ben Stien".

And wasn't it you in another thread who admitted that rich people also support democrats?

If life worked the way you wanted in reality, then your textbook would work for everyone all the time and I would agree with you. But we are not all the same and an entire economy cannot be treated like a personal checkbook.

Pushing the middle class and working poor down further is what we have done for the past 30 years. Our economy works, under your conditions, but for who and how many?

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Beyond Saving's picture

Brian37 wrote:No what you

Brian37 wrote:

No what you are doing is no different than writing "Evidence that demands a virdict". It is like a theist quoting Flew.

WE HAD national investment and higher tax rates to defend WW2 and that built our middle class.

I'm not talking about WWII I am talking specifically about your bullshit claim that the Great Depression was caused by deregulation. The fact is there was no deregulation, how can something that never happened be the cause? Unless you can point to specific laws that were passed sometime around the Great Depression that could be argued as deregulating- which you can't because they don't exist. We can argue about whether or not the increasingly centralized federal regulations and growing regulatory bodies caused the depression or whether or not they made the depression better or worse, longer or shorter than it would have been otherwise.

You cannot argue that the depression occurred in an environment of heavy deregulation when the fact is that virtually every law passed in the 40 years before the depression increased regulation. Laws that did not see any serious deregulation until President Carter in the late 1970's. What I am writing is a short summary of every law passed prior to the great depression with as little of my opinion injected as I can to demonstrate the complete lie of your claim- one that is repeated persistently. We have facts, we have the laws, we know the dates they were passed, we know what years government agencies were created and we know how many people worked for them and how large their budget was. The Great Depression occurred following a period of significant increases in financial regulation, period, that is a fact.  

 

Brian37 wrote:

I admit I have never taken an economic course. But I also don't know how to build a car engine. But it does not take a rocket scientist to know that your car does not run on pixy dust.

I imagine you wouldn't argue with a car guy on how to build the best car, why do you presume to do so about economics? 

 

Brian37 wrote:

And I have quoted the names of PLENTY of rich people and economist experts who dissagree with you.

Nick Hanour, Suzie Orman, Robert Reich, Warren Buffet and let me add our newist addition a Fox News turncoat, Ben Stien".

And wasn't it you in another thread who admitted that rich people also support democrats?

So? Yes there are rich people who disagree with me, there are those who agree with me (and most we agree on some things and disagree on others). There are rich people who are theists, there are rich people who are atheists. I don't draw my conclusions based on what other people believe which is why I often provide raw evidence. The people you listed also all claimed that the stimulus would work, keep our unemployment rate down and improve our economy. Do you believe that it did? (Well I am not 100% sure what Nick Hanour thought of the stimulus but I know the others all did) 

 

Brian37 wrote:

Pushing the middle class and working poor down further is what we have done for the past 30 years. Our economy works, under your conditions, but for who and how many?

I have brought more people from poor to middle class in three years than you will your entire life. How many people can you point to and say "hey, I played a role in improving their income"? No person has ever become more poor associating with me than they were before they met me. Mitt Romney has brought more people into the middle class than you could if you lived 100 lives. Your classist rhetoric is a bunch of bullshit and the end result of it is you're the one who is going to be sitting around without a job. When you get rich in the US honestly you can't help but make a lot of other people wealthier as well, even if you are Scrooge (which IME most rich people are not despite the stereotype promoted by your ilk) 

 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X

Sapient's picture

Beyond Saving wrote:Mitt

Beyond Saving wrote:

Mitt Romney has brought more people into the middle class than you could if you lived 100 lives. 

A debatable point.  Much more likely that as a result of his accumulating wealth by gutting companies, he has put many more people out of a job to make a few fat cats at the top more rich than they already were.

 

 

Quote:

Once all that debt is added, one of two things can happen. The company can fire workers and slash benefits to pay off all its new obligations to Goldman Sachs and Bain, leaving it ripe to be resold by Bain at a huge profit. Or it can go bankrupt – this happens after about seven percent of all private equity buyouts – leaving behind one or more shuttered factory towns. Either way, Bain wins. By power-sucking cash value from even the most rapidly dying firms, private equity raiders like Bain almost always get their cash out before a target goes belly up.

This business model wasn't really "helping," of course – and it wasn't new. Fans of mob movies will recognize what's known as the "bust-out," in which a gangster takes over a restaurant or sporting goods store and then monetizes his investment by running up giant debts on the company's credit line. (Think Paulie buying all those cases of Cutty Sark in Goodfellas.) When the note comes due, the mobster simply torches the restaurant and collects the insurance money. Reduced to their most basic level, the leveraged buyouts engineered by Romney followed exactly the same business model. "It's the bust-out," one Wall Street trader says with a laugh. "That's all it is."

 

Read more at Rolling Stone.

 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.

digitalbeachbum's picture

It's so weird that I find

It's so weird that I find really good points that Beyond has stated which I agree with and also Brian has posted some good items which I agree on. They are like two extreme point of views and I'm stuck in the middle.

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

-Scott Adams