Submitted by drummermonkey on April 28, 2008 - 11:33am.
deludedgod wrote:
Again, you misconstrue the argument. This argument is only with respect to the creationist argument which states as an ad hoc that God is manipulating the world in order to "test our faith" (or words to that effect". This is similar to the Cartesian Demon thought experiment. This post only addressed this particular creationist argument, which is more or less a form of global skepticism as well as an ad hoc and a total abdication of intellectual responsibility. The only difference between said creationist argument and a normal global skeptic argument is that a skeptic is arguing against the possibility of knowledge based on the possibility that our epistemological faculties our faulty. Creationists who try to use the ad hoc justification of why their propositions have been proven false from an empirical standpoint are trying to argue that said faculties are faulty by employing said faculties, hence shooting themselves in the foot. That was my argument. Perhaps I should change the title.
I see what you mean now, i suppose the title threw me off. Since skeptical theism is a defended view in contemporary metaphysics specifically dealing with the problem of evil. You're addressing a different philosophical debate than I had first suspected. I'm no creationist, so I'm probably not going to defend them. But the epistemology interests me so I'll address a few of the concerns you raised with the epistemic picture.
Quote:
I'm not denying the principle or Moore's modus tollens. I accept that if S knew q, then S knows ¬SP. That's fine. My argument was that these creationists are asserting that they know that SP is true. But that is logically impossible. If SP is true, then S does not know q, and surely if S did not know q, S could not know SP. It's fine to say that if S knew q, S would know ¬SP, but what I was pointing out was that the ad hoc argument I called the Argument from Trickery suggests that S knows SP. But like I said, that's impossible. It's very well and good to say that if BIV (Brain-in-a-vat) or something to that effect is possible then S knowing q is not. Creationists who appeal to SP are using a meaningless ad hoc justification for their beliefs.
I think I follow you here, if you're a creationist you're going to have to be an infallibalist, and a lot of them are. So I think you're on the right track. But I wonder if they would just say that they don't know that SP is true, they just know that SP is a possibility. And because SP is a possibility, then they don't know that q. There's no way that S can know that ~SP (ie whether SP or ~SP is true), thus you can't know that q. And i'm not sure if ad hoc-ness is the best critique that you can give. That is to say, I'm not sure that ad hoc-ness can really get rid of the epistemelogical challenge that the creationist presents. I think most atheists are content with just saying things like, "look I know that q, thus I know that ~SP". And leave it at that. If the creationist wants to say "that's ad hoc" you can just nail them with the same critique. But their argument makes sense, it's not really that meaningless.
Quote:
You'll have to refresh me. When I think of the lottier problem I think of the Gettier Counterexample problem (or are you and I referring to the same thing?)
The lottery problems are basically this. Suppose I have a lottery ticket. if fallibalism is true, then I should be able to know that my lottery ticket is a loser. But I can't know that my lottery ticket is a loser, after all it's possible that it could win. Thus fallibalism is false. That's it in a nutshell, and I've greatly simplified it but there is a lot of literature in epistemology about it. In particular by Hawthorne and Dreske.
Quote:
This is now off-topic, but I'll go with it. I'd find it worse to concede that one cannot have contingent/uncertain knowledge. It would present a severe problem for epistemology. Obviously:
For S to know q, S must know q with certainty
S does not know a lot of things certainly
S does not know a lot of things
Under this, only a few statements would be considered knowledge, like Descartes statement. But, I prefer to say that most knowledge claims are contingent, and that the epistemic justificatory force, whatever it might be, can be fallible. A priori reasoning, it is well known, can be both defeasible and fallible (BonJour wrote a lot on this subject) even though many consider it superior to a posteriori reasoning. Presumably, to know something, it must be true, and you must justify its truth, but even that is not necessarily enough, since you might be lucky to have knowledge that is unrelated to your JTB (justified true belief). So, if I was driving, saw some poodles in a field cut to look like sheep, inferred there were sheep, and happened to be right since there were some sheep hiding out of sight behind some boulders, I would have a JTB, but no knowledge. When we say that most knowledge claims are contingent, it makes life a lot easier since it allows for things like induction and so forth. That's why we have degrees of certainty, like:
I am fairly certain that p
I think that p
Probably p
Maybe p
p could be right
definitely p
p is more likely than not p
etc.
Well skepticism is a major problem in epistemology. Irregardless of whether we think our knowledge attributions are contingent, and whether this makes life easier, this does not make fallibalism true. If knowledge attributions are contingent then there is some amount of luck involved in being right, and if we're just lucky that we're right, then we don't have knowledge. It seems extremely odd to say that "S knows that p, with x amount of certainty, but S could be wrong". And the argument above seems incredibly plausible, you can't verify that you are not a brain in a vat. Even looking at your hand and saying "I know I have a hand" is no verification for that. Thus you don't know that you have hands. This seems to be very relevant to you're whole argument against skeptical creationists, they argue that the mere possibilty that you could be wrong, makes you not have knowledge and sufficient justification. They can be fine with the idea that their views are not sufficiently justified, but their point seems to be neither are the atheists.
Anyways I'm no skeptic, but my point was that the argument for skepticism could have been presented stronger.
deludedgod wrote:Again, you
I see what you mean now, i suppose the title threw me off. Since skeptical theism is a defended view in contemporary metaphysics specifically dealing with the problem of evil. You're addressing a different philosophical debate than I had first suspected. I'm no creationist, so I'm probably not going to defend them. But the epistemology interests me so I'll address a few of the concerns you raised with the epistemic picture.
I think I follow you here, if you're a creationist you're going to have to be an infallibalist, and a lot of them are. So I think you're on the right track. But I wonder if they would just say that they don't know that SP is true, they just know that SP is a possibility. And because SP is a possibility, then they don't know that q. There's no way that S can know that ~SP (ie whether SP or ~SP is true), thus you can't know that q. And i'm not sure if ad hoc-ness is the best critique that you can give. That is to say, I'm not sure that ad hoc-ness can really get rid of the epistemelogical challenge that the creationist presents. I think most atheists are content with just saying things like, "look I know that q, thus I know that ~SP". And leave it at that. If the creationist wants to say "that's ad hoc" you can just nail them with the same critique. But their argument makes sense, it's not really that meaningless.
The lottery problems are basically this. Suppose I have a lottery ticket. if fallibalism is true, then I should be able to know that my lottery ticket is a loser. But I can't know that my lottery ticket is a loser, after all it's possible that it could win. Thus fallibalism is false. That's it in a nutshell, and I've greatly simplified it but there is a lot of literature in epistemology about it. In particular by Hawthorne and Dreske.
Well skepticism is a major problem in epistemology. Irregardless of whether we think our knowledge attributions are contingent, and whether this makes life easier, this does not make fallibalism true. If knowledge attributions are contingent then there is some amount of luck involved in being right, and if we're just lucky that we're right, then we don't have knowledge. It seems extremely odd to say that "S knows that p, with x amount of certainty, but S could be wrong". And the argument above seems incredibly plausible, you can't verify that you are not a brain in a vat. Even looking at your hand and saying "I know I have a hand" is no verification for that. Thus you don't know that you have hands. This seems to be very relevant to you're whole argument against skeptical creationists, they argue that the mere possibilty that you could be wrong, makes you not have knowledge and sufficient justification. They can be fine with the idea that their views are not sufficiently justified, but their point seems to be neither are the atheists.
Anyways I'm no skeptic, but my point was that the argument for skepticism could have been presented stronger.