Thank you for the criticism; let me see if I understand your challenge correctly. O = observation, K = knowledge.
Eloise wrote:
I don't think this argument can work Quasar, because in the first few paragraphs you have stated that contiguous observations are sufficient evidence for contiguous observations and not sufficient evidence for knowledge.
O implies O
O does not imply K
Eloise wrote:
But here you have moved to say that a lack of observation constitutes a lack of knowledge,
not O implies not K
Eloise wrote:
this is contrary to your first statement from which it would follow that lack of observation is lack of observation, and nothing more is evident.
not O implies not O (derived from negation of O implies O, though also apparent through an identity axiom)
And you're claiming that these 2 statements are logically contradictory?
not O implies not K
not O implies not O
No, I am saying these statements are logically contradictory-
O does not imply K
not O implies not K
As you appear to have noted below.
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That said, I'll acknowledge that within the set of logical statements you're listing here, neither O nor not O implies K, which I would agree with using the strictest definition of knowledge. I tried to indicate this in my previous post in the sense that regardless of what I observe, I can never know with certainty the true underlying nature of the thing being observed... all I can know is how it appears to me in my observation.
Eloise wrote:
To make observation and knowledge synonymous is to make an inductive statement that knowledge will always be observed by the knower. (NB you've already contradicted this statement in having said that knowledge must necessarily exist in the absence of contiguous observation.)
I think here you're referring to where I propose that, since knowledge in the strictest sense is unattainable through observation, that it's epistemologically justifiable to assign 100% confidence in the proposition that our observations reflect a reality which obeys some set of consistent rules.
Yes. I am, in the bracketed part. I agree that it is epistemologically justifiable to assign 100% confidence that observations reflect a reality which obeys rules. I disagree when you say that real knowledge must necessarily exist apart from observation. Your statement only implies consistency within observation, that is all that can be inferred from the conditions.
QuasarX wrote:
I want to be clear that I in no way propose that observation should be considered synonymous with knowledge in the strict sense that I used it in my previous post.
Here I was referring to not O implies not K which implies that observation and knowledge are synonymous and makes an induction from the example you posted.
Quote:
That said, if I understand you correctly, you're making the point that my line of reasoning makes the assumption that it's impossible to gain knowledge without making any observation.
Exactly. And I'll make the point now that I am not saying that such is impossible, I am only saying that the reasoning you put forth does not provide sufficient conditions for that.
QuasarX wrote:
In other words, I understand you to mean that I don't properly address deductive reasoning like math and logic.
Actually, No. I'm not referring to any of the usual suspects here, surprised?
My point deals strictly with the line of your reasoning which leads to the agreeable conclusion that observation is contiguous and ordered but does not extend outside of that to contiguous and ordered knowledge in the absence of direct observation.
QuasarX wrote:
But here is the problem with math and logic... the conclusions we draw from them only apply to reality to the extent that the axioms and givens used to derive those conclusions apply to reality. So, you can select any axioms and given statements you want, and derive certain conclusions from them, and claim to have knowledge as a result... and I would agree that you have gained knowledge of a mental model which may or may not correlate to the real world. In order for that to constitute knowledge of objective reality (which is what I was using the term knowledge to mean in my previous post), you have to already have sufficient knowledge of objective reality to know that reality is constrained by the axioms and given statements that your mental model is based on, and I challenge you to provide an explanation for how any perceived knowledge could be epistemologically determined to constitute knowledge of objective reality without the use of any observations.
What I am saying is that your line of reasoning does not extend logically to an objective reality. It favourably points to an objective process vis a vis observation, but does not establish that this objectivity is possible to extract from the original observation. It is objective within the observation, take the original observation away and you have no context for this knowledge that you can say is objective.
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I have absolutely no idea what you mean by the sentence in parentheses preceded by the nota bene.
Ignore it, it was just a passing mention.
QuasarX wrote:
Eloise wrote:
So to say, if we render a lack of observation insufficient grounds for knowledge then we have equated having knowledge with contiguous observation but you had earlier said that observation only gives knowledge of itself thus is not sufficient proof of knowledge.
You're saying that not O does not imply K, therefore K = O?
No, I am saying that If not O implies not K then O=K because not O implies not O.
QuasarX wrote:
If so, I'm gonna have to call bullshit on that one. To conclude that K = O, you would need to establish that O implies K (which by negation yields not K implies not O) and K implies O (which by negation yields not O implies not K).
Okay, I think that this part may have been too obscure. I was saying as I noted above: If not O implies not K then K=O because not O implies not O. And I am saying we cannot do that because we have already agreed that O does not imply K and obtained that O does not equal K.
QuasarX wrote:
However, in retrospect, I think I may not have been clear enough in my use of the term knowledge in my previous post, so I'll try to give a better explanation of what I mean in the hopes that it will clear up any misunderstandings we may be having. I'm proposing that we know what our observations are, but that we can't know everything about the situations we observe. I'm proposing that it's epistemologically justifiable to assume that, and to act as though, our observations are not random or part of an elaborate deception.
I am comfortable with that entirely. I just do not believe it necessarily implies an objectively knowable reality, to me it merely implies a reality in which observations are a reliable source of knowledge about observations and justifies confidence in the said reliability.
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I'm proposing that if our observations are consistent and useful that it's epistemologically justifiable to draw certain conclusions from them, but that it's also not epistemologically justifiable to draw certain other conclusions from them.
Again I agree. But again I think this only ascertains confidence in the conclusions regarding the reliability of observation as observation. It is this part which I emphasised in my last paragraph on probabilities and probability. We can say that Probability is knowledge when it is validated by observed probabilities. We have not implied, however, that the probabilities themselves are knowledge.
Quasar wrote:
I'm not attempting to provide a complete framework for which conclusions are justifiable and which are not, but to use my example of phase changes in water, I would say that it's justifiable to conclude that water will always transition through a liquid state in situations that are functionally equivalent to those situations in which water has been observed to behave that way, but that it's not justifiable to extrapolate that water will behave that way in all possible situations. This avoids the problem of water skipping the liquid state under certain combinations of temperature and pressure.
I am agreeing wholeheartedly with your logic here, but not with your terms. To borrow your analogy and condense the point - the water states and the situations are not sufficient to be referred to logically as knowledge, they are observations which justify the epistemic confidence in observational order and in being repeatable and widely representable they entail a reliable epistemological justification for the confidence you spoke about, but only in regards to observation. Not in regard to knowledge.
-- wearing a blue shirt and pouting must be a closet atheist.
"Have you ever seen bugs trapped in amber?
Well, here we are, Mr. Pilgrim, trapped in the amber of this moment. There is no why." Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
QuasarX wrote:Thank you for
No, I am saying these statements are logically contradictory-
O does not imply K
not O implies not K
As you appear to have noted below.
Yes. I am, in the bracketed part. I agree that it is epistemologically justifiable to assign 100% confidence that observations reflect a reality which obeys rules. I disagree when you say that real knowledge must necessarily exist apart from observation. Your statement only implies consistency within observation, that is all that can be inferred from the conditions.
Here I was referring to not O implies not K which implies that observation and knowledge are synonymous and makes an induction from the example you posted.
Exactly. And I'll make the point now that I am not saying that such is impossible, I am only saying that the reasoning you put forth does not provide sufficient conditions for that.
Actually, No. I'm not referring to any of the usual suspects here, surprised?
My point deals strictly with the line of your reasoning which leads to the agreeable conclusion that observation is contiguous and ordered but does not extend outside of that to contiguous and ordered knowledge in the absence of direct observation.
What I am saying is that your line of reasoning does not extend logically to an objective reality. It favourably points to an objective process vis a vis observation, but does not establish that this objectivity is possible to extract from the original observation. It is objective within the observation, take the original observation away and you have no context for this knowledge that you can say is objective.
Ignore it, it was just a passing mention.
No, I am saying that If not O implies not K then O=K because not O implies not O.
Okay, I think that this part may have been too obscure. I was saying as I noted above: If not O implies not K then K=O because not O implies not O. And I am saying we cannot do that because we have already agreed that O does not imply K and obtained that O does not equal K.
I am comfortable with that entirely. I just do not believe it necessarily implies an objectively knowable reality, to me it merely implies a reality in which observations are a reliable source of knowledge about observations and justifies confidence in the said reliability.
Again I agree. But again I think this only ascertains confidence in the conclusions regarding the reliability of observation as observation. It is this part which I emphasised in my last paragraph on probabilities and probability. We can say that Probability is knowledge when it is validated by observed probabilities. We have not implied, however, that the probabilities themselves are knowledge.
I am agreeing wholeheartedly with your logic here, but not with your terms. To borrow your analogy and condense the point - the water states and the situations are not sufficient to be referred to logically as knowledge, they are observations which justify the epistemic confidence in observational order and in being repeatable and widely representable they entail a reliable epistemological justification for the confidence you spoke about, but only in regards to observation. Not in regard to knowledge.
-- wearing a blue shirt and pouting must be a closet atheist.
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"Have you ever seen bugs trapped in amber?
Well, here we are, Mr. Pilgrim, trapped in the amber of this moment. There is no why." Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five