woww way 2 waste 1 hr typing up a half a page showing how ignorant u are about the bible...

What makes anyone's interpretation over another's valid or not valid?

Maybe it's Al Gore?

Bible Prophecy: Psalm 22:1-2 says, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning? O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent."

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:46 says, "About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, 'Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?' - which means, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'"

Bible Prophecy: Psalm 22:7-8 says, "All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads: 'He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.'"

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:41-44 says, "In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 'He saved others,' they said, 'but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, I am the Son of God.' In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him."

Bible Prophecy: Psalm 22:15 says, "My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death."

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:48 says, "Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink."

Bible Prophecy: Psalm 22:17-18 says, "I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing."

Fulfillment: John 19:23 says, "When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom."

http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/prophecies-fulfilled-by-the-crucifixion-of-jesus-christ-faq.htm

and we all know for a fact that the gospel writers had no access to the psalms...

Just go to the main site, and look for the thread that way. I think you will find it in there. I did last night, but have not checked it since.

That site is hillarious! I found so many funny and silly things in it.

Did they also force the Persians to invent crucifixion in 300 BC so that they could concoct some story that would fulfill the prophecy of the Psalms which were written approximately 500 years prior to that?

Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.   

                                                   --Psalm 22:16

What other punishments at the time of Psalms involved the piercing of hands and feet?

Once the victim arrived at the execution site, the patibulum was put on the ground and the victim was forced to lie upon it. Spikes about 7 inches long and 3/8 of an inch in diameter were driven into the wrists. The spikes would hit the area of the median nerve, causing shocks of pain up the arms to the shoulders and neck. Already standing at the crucifixion site would be the 7-foot-tall post, called a stipes.

http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/crucifixion.htm

         I love the answers he gave,  I was a devout christian for over 25 years, and I even studied at the seminary level(Concordia seminary St. Louis).  There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE for the christian faith at all.  The more I studied the more faith I LOST, now, I am convinced of only ONE thing:  If god exists, he is IRRELEVENT.

   Perhaps Jesus was confused about where the spikes were actually inserted ? He apparently instructed "doubting" Thomas to examine the wounds in his hands. 

  http://bible.cc/john/20-27.htm

  http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/doubting-thomas-faq.htm

Once at the execution site, the victim would be nailed through the hands (or wrists) and feet.

http://atheism.about.com/od/biblegospels/a/crucifixion.htm

And this information comes from an atheist website.  Talk about being hoisted by your own petard!

Surely you jest!  Jews are insisting that Christian prophecy was never fulfilled?!  Who'da thunk it?

oh, and just to be clear, i will answer you.

none.

but that doesn't mean there weren't any and that doesn't mean someone else couldn't "name" them.

"iwbiek doesn't know the answer to fundy's question" does not equal "ancient hebrew writer saw centuries into the fucking future," m'kay?

I know.  How dare someone actually back up what they say with sources.

Obviously you are making a presupposition that prophecies are impossible and assuming that everything is going to correspond with your presupposition.  The prediction in Psalms disproves your presupposition.

It would be like if I presupposed that it was impossible for people to invent vehicles that fly and despite all of the evidence that is presented to me, I still deny that it's plausible on the basis of my presupposition.

Actually, we do know.  (Sorry, I'm going to cite more sources!)

Assyrian Death Penalty This sketch represents the usual death penalty given by the Assyrians which was hoisting on poles. The victims were tied with their stomachs or throats on the point of a stake so that their own weight thrust them downwards.
http://www.bible-history.com/past/assyrian_death_penalty.html

Assyrian Fetters Pairs of bronze fetters were used to fasten prisoners. They were made of various shapes and materials. The ones that were put on Zedekiah and Samson were made of brass or copper. The sketch on top is from a pair of Fetters found in Nineveh, currently in the British Museum. They weigh 8 lbs. 11 oz. and are 16 ½ inches long. The part which enclosed the ankles is thinner so that they could be hammered small after the feet were placed in them. The Egyptians enclosed the hands of their prisoners in an elongated shackle of wood, made of two opposite segments nailed together at each end.
http://www.bible-history.com/past/assyrian_fetters.html

Assyrian Hooking the Lips This sketch is an archaeological discovery from the ruins of Ancient Assyria. It reveals an Assyrian king blinding a captive king while holding his head still with a hook in his lips. The other kings are waiting for the same fate. The Bible reveals accounts of prisoners being blinded and this metaphor is used of God leading rebellious people and nations.
http://www.bible-history.com/sketches/ancient/assyrian-king-lips-eyes.html

Assyrians Blinding Their Prisoners This sketch represents part of a scene from a marble slab discovered at Khorsabad. The Assyrian king is using a spear to blind one of his many prisoners. In his left hand he holds a cord with a hook attached at the opposite end which are inserted into the prisoners lips. The Assyrians would thrust the point of a dagger or spear into the eye. Their are many representations that have been discovered revealing that the Babylonians, Assyrians and Persians made use of the same cruel punishment.
http://www.bible-history.com/past/blinding_prisoners.html

Counting Dead Men's Hands This sketch represents how the Egyptians would count the severed hands of enemy corpses after a battle. They would usually cut off the hands or the genitals of the dead and make a heap before their king. In one case 12,535 of these "battle trophies" were counted and assembled into a mound after a victory of Ramsees III over the Libyans.
http://www.bible-history.com/past/egyptians_counting_hands.html

Israelites Forced to Labor This sketch is taken from a marble relief found in the palace of Sennacherib. It illustrates how the Israelite prisoners were assembled into gangs and forced to perform heavy labor. They are clothed in short skirted garments and are carrying heavy loads of rocks.
http://www.bible-history.com/past/israelite_forced_labor.html

Roman Scourging The Romans would, according to custom, scourge a condemned criminal before he was put to death. The Roman scourge, also called the "flagrum" or "flagellum" was a short whip made of two or three leather (ox-hide) thongs or ropes connected to a handle as in the sketch above. The leather thongs were knotted with a number of small pieces of metal, usually zinc and iron, attached at various intervals. Scourging would quickly remove the skin.
http://www.bible-history.com/past/flagrum.html

Many of these predated the Persians creation of crucifixion.

Or it was actually a prophecy.  Are you going to disavow any evidence that is presented to you?

I've cited numerous pieces of evidence, all of which you reject.  Just because you reject evidence does not make something naked or an assertion.

Actually, the Bible isn't just one book.  It is a collection of 66 books.

If you can't even get the basics down, how can we trust that you are qualified to address the actual issues?

That seems to be the best explanation. 

That would be tenable if we were talking about one passage, but we are talking about many passages in Psalms reflected in the events described in Matthew. 

So how did the author of Psalm 22 know about crucifixion before it was even invented?

Many of the painters and most of the sculptors of crucifixion, also show the nails through the palms. Historical Roman accounts and experimental work have established that the nails were driven between the small bones of the wrists (radial and ulna) and not through the palms. Nails driven through the palms will strip out between the fingers when made to support the weight of the human body. The misconception may have come about through a misunderstanding of Jesus' words to Thomas, "Observe my hands." Anatomists, both modern and ancient, have always considered the wrist as part of the hand

http://www.konnections.com/kcundick/crucifix.html

Why do stigmata always appear in the palm of the hand? Is that the work of satan?

Because it's an unbiblical doctrine and the result of people mutilating themselves in whatever manner they choose?

  Holy crap !! Then why bother mentioning the radial and ulna ( arm bones ) at all ?  

  The space between the radial and ulna ( where the nail went ) have nothing to do any structure of the hand ( hence my graphic ) the fact that carpals butt against the radial and ulna does not make the R@U a part of the wrist / hand.

  Btw,  neck vertebrae "extend"  all the way to the skull..... but they are not considered to be a part of the skull.

  God is not the author of confusion ?   Hee Hee!  Thanks for the anatomy lesson.

You are now changing the scope of what it is that you call into question.  That is the sign of desperation.  What you called into question initially was whether or not this was a crucifixion.  Now you are extending the scope to question whether or not this was a civil punishment because you have come to the realization that, despite your pretense to the contrary, we do know what civil punishments were around in antiquity.

The fact that I am forcing you to change the goal posts so much, I consider a real victory.

That's not a simple explanation.  That's an ad hoc fallacy whereby you get to discount all of the evidence presented by the people you oppose. 

How do you know that?

Furthermore, who said anything about civil death penalties?  That is another one of your attempts to extend the scope far enough that you can say I haven't established my claim.

The problem is that ECREE was disregarded as a reliable means towards truth from the moment it was presented to an actual historian.  You can make "extraordinary" mean anything that you want it to mean.  It is entirely subjective.

What is an extraordinary claim? An extraordinary claim is a claim that contradicts strongly held beliefs. What any one person considers an extraordinary claim is therefore subjective. Science cannot objectively determine whether or not a claim is extraordinary.

http://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/skeptical_fallacies#skeptical_fallacies_extraordinary_claims

I love how you continually change the scope of your questioniong. 

The general consensus among historians (you know, people who actually study these things) is that the Persians invented crucifixion.  But even if there was not enough evidence to establish that with 100% certainty, we can establish that crucifixion was not around when the Psalms were written.  There are no accounts in any historical documents or archaeological evidence that we've discovered from this time period which mentions or depicts crucifixion. 

In order for you to know that the Persians didn't invent crucifixion, you would have to have exhaustive knowledge.  And in order for you to assert that we do not have exhaustive knowledge, you need some underlying basis.  Otherwise, that is no different from me saying, "Yes, the biological evidence suggests evolution, but that's only based on the limited evidence that we have.  Our knowledge is by no means exhaustive, therefore we should not accept evolution!"  You are just special pleading because you do not like Christianity.

Can I ask you what your credentials are as a historian and why I should take your word over what they say?

He did.

It mentions the piercing of hands and feet, the dividing of the garments, the mocking by onlookers, the words said by the victim, the dry mouth.  Read the entire passage.

So you speak for the "scholarly community" now?  LOL.

The problem is that Ockham's Razor works only if the person applying it actually knows what they are talking about.

Did you know that William of Ockham was a theist?

And yet you cannot give me an example to the contrary nor can you give me any basis for propagating that other sorts of punishments existed.  You can only assert the possibility on the grounds that prophecy is impossible, which is begging the question.

(1) A man mentioned piercing of hands and feet before the established date, agreed upon by historians, of the invention of crucifixion

(2) Nobody has established that any other punishments involved the piercing of hands and feet.

(3) Prophecies are impossible

:. Therefore, there were punishments involving the piercing of hands and feet or crucifixion existed at that time.

(3) is begging the question.  You are assuming to be true what I am denying.

well, i do hold a BA in religion and classical studies from centre college in danville, ky.  granted it isn't a postgraduate degree, but i'm willing to bet it's one more degree than what you hold in either field.  that's one reason why i don't constantly go quote-mining on websites--i have actual training from an accredited and prestigious institution.  i offer this merely because you asked.

for what it's worth, i was accepted to the mdiv program at yale divinity with a $10,000 scholarship but ended up not going because i stayed in central europe and got married.  i do what i can to continue my education under my own steam; i have over a hundred books on religion in my study, particularly the abrahamic religions, ranging from hans kung to martin buber to g.k. chesterton, all of which i've read at least once.  so i'm at least aware of what the scholarly community is saying.  i would never presume to speak for them.  i doubt even huston smith would ever do that.

i absolutely never would call myself a historian.  that's an honorary title that can only be granted by one's peers as a sign of deep respect.  anyone who refers to himself as a historian needs to stick a "pseudo-" in front of it.

as for the rest of your bullshit, just to be clear, i'll set the goalposts once and for all, and i invite anyone mad enough to follow our exchange to cry foul if i ever move them again.  you have made two positive assertions that you have yet to prove:

1. psalm 22 is talking about crucifixion.  your only argument for this is that i personally can't offer any other ancient punishment that involved piercing the hands and feet (the other details you referred to in this post--dividing the garments, etc.--only parallel events surrounding the account of jesus's crucifixion in the gospels and do not in any way objectively support that the psalm is talking about crucifixion in general).  i really don't think this argument would fly anywhere outside a sunday school classroom.  if any third parties think this is a good argument, please speak up and tell me why.  let's get a little peer review going.

2. psalm 22 specifically predicts jesus's crucifixion as narrated in the gospels.  your only argument for this is that details match, therefore prophecy.  you have basically dismissed out of hand the argument that the gospel writers copied the details from the psalm as justification for their religious agenda, which is perfectly plausible and even likely.  prophecy, however, is scientifically implausible.

there are the goalposts.  kick a fieldgoal, hoss.

btw, i know ockham was a theist.  what the fuck does that have to do with anything?  did you know martin luther had his big epiphany about grace while on the shitter?  did you know i ate a chicken kebab today? 

I have an undergraduate degree as well, but that does not preclude me from backing up what I say.  I'm sorry that my citing of sources bothers you, but the truth hurts, doesn't it?

It was not talking about crucifixion in general.  It was talking about that specific instance of crucifixion, right down to the words that Jesus said while he was on the cross.

No, because that would require that the authors knew this stuff to be false.  Therefore, you would need a motive for promulgation.  There is absolutely no motive you can give that would make any sense other than that these guys truly believed that things that they say, given the consequences for heresy.  Paul especially had no reason to lie about Jesus.   

It's not meant to be a scientific claim.  Miracles, by definition, do not happen that often, which precludes them from repeatability and testability.

I don't pretend to have any such qualification. I was merely pointing out that if you choose to use abduction, the conclusions you reach depend on your interpretation of a set of differing hypotheses. If you must be so pendantic, the hypothesis becomes "an earlier writing mentions piercings of hands and feet. A later writing also mentions piercings of hands and feet."

Why?

You referred specifically to psalm 22.

Where does Psalm 22 talk about crucifixion? All I see is stuff about the piercings of hands and feet. Don't you think if he were talking about crucifixion, he would mention -- oh, I don't know -- a CROSS perhaps? For all we know, the author of Psalm 22 could have been uttering a turn of phrase for effect, or had some metaphorical meaning. He could have been describing something else which involved the piercing of hands and feet. How do we make the leap from piercing of hands and feet to crucifixion? How do we even make the leap from piercings of hands and feet to punishment, or even a physical event of any kind?

Oh, by the way, I have some more hypotheses for you:

Hypothesis 4: Jesus himself knew about Psalm 22, and while being crucified saw a similarity to his own position with the one described in the Psalm, and alluded to the passage. (After all, Jesus is pretty well known for quoting Old Testament verses in his sermons).

Hypothesis 5: Matthew, having written the story of Jesus' crucifixion, alluded to Psalm 22 as a literary technique. "Jesus has to say something here. Ah! How about that passage from Psalm 22?"

EDIT:
 

Another thing, you've stated that you don't think that Prophecy is an "extraordinary claim."

Fine, let's throw off the notions of extraordinary and ordinary claims for a moment, and just look at it as a claim, like any other.

In order for us to accept your claim, you're going to have to provide us with some more solid evidence than Psalm 22. You have to show us a fulfilled prophecy which indisputably, beyond reasonable doubt, was an accurate prediction by the seer. As I have shown Psalm 22 has numerous reasonable explanations which do not require us to accept that prophecies are true. The simple fact that the psalms were widely known and read in Jesus' day, and the actors in the prophecy were people who had most likely read Psalm 22 is enough to make us skeptical of the claim that Psalm 22 is a prophecy.

I never said that they knew it wasn't true so way to knock down that strawman.

I don't think they had an opinion on the truth of Jesus at all s truth doesn't have anything to do with faith or belief. It just has to make sense or bring comfort to the intended audience.

That's why myths held such power before people knew where/how to look for answers.

Remember why John said his work was written? John 20:31 states "But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

No mention of truth wanted or needed. If there is knowledge, there is no need for belief or faith.

Bring comfort to the intended audience? 

That statement alone demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of the entire faith.

Christianity is not about making people comfortable.  It's about waking people up to the realization that they are not good.  It's like taking someone who thinks he is a great singer, slapping him across the face, and telling him, "You are terrible!  You need to take up a new hobby."  In Christianity, the message is, "You are a terrible person.  You need to be saved."  Basically, Christianity is saying, "Hey, you think you are worthy of everlasting life?  You're not.  And nothing you can do will change that.  Only by God's mercy are you allowed into Heaven."

The other religions will tell you, "You are a great person!  You have the power to attain eternal fulfillment.  Just follow these steps."  Christianity says the complete opposite.  How could that message make anyone comfortable? 

Furthermore, the New Testament is not meant to be midrash.  It is meant to be a historical document.

So I ask you again, why would the authors write a story that they know is going to piss people off and possibly result in their own death?