She deleted all my comments on it and hasn't said anything else...

A bit of an update I had been on her top 8 and she just took me off of her friends list. I guess this mean religion just took one of my friends. And before people go oh its just myspace I have known her in real life since 8th grade and we are going to the same college right now. Not that I see her often or that I'm real close to her or anything.

I don't even count Psalms, Proverbs, or Solomon's Song as scripture. They're just old documents that just got thrown in with the rest because they were from the right place, right time, and right people. If I played with dice, I'd bet the writters would have written those books if they knew it'd be put in with the teachings of the prophets. If you want to quote the Old Testament do it from Isaiah or Malachi or something.

A bit choosy aren't we? At least have the courage to accept the bad stuff with the good instead of trying to find excuses. As long as there are a billion people who accept the whole package as the Holy Bible, we might as well quote from it what we want.

Any body who looks at the history of Christianity or the line of preisthood authority (God's authority) can see that it ends no later than two hundred years after Christ dies. The bible was put together at the Council of Nicaea, right? Men with just as much of authority as you and me put together the bible out of old books, most of which were teachings of the gospel. If you read those three books you can straightway see that it's not about Christ or gospel. It's not docterine.

There are many other threads about the bible's history, my point was that as long as people consider psalms and proverbs part of the biblical canon we might as well quote from it, because it is a potential influence to the lives of everyone (leviticus being a prime example of biblical influence).

Alright, but if you throw something bogas at me I will tell you. I expect the same, eh?

ok first I asked her about it and she said it was an accident. I don't know how much of an accident that can be but whatever she is weak when it comes to life and arguements (again this is looking past her theism)...

Ok now rationalmormon to say that you pick and choose what is holy and what isn't pretty much makes the idea of the holy book fall apart. That like saying "all US laws are far and just" then saying "oh yeah a few of them aren't, but that doesn't mean we can't follow the others like they are."

It not that bogas the holy bible is either holy or it isn't I don't think you can get around it. I mean really anyone can have a few good rules and then a few bad rules but if there are any bad rules a person can't say the set of rules is different from any other set. Also those good rules don't do anything about or for the bad ones.

Bottom line, if you describe a book as your holy book then it is fair to quote from it like it is your holy book.

What was bogus about it?

that was future tense

wait...

Your telling him before he says something bogus, implying that he will, that you'll make sure to tell him?

You know if he hasn't done it yet why even bring it up...

You guys are reading far too much into the comment.

What is was saying is if he starts sprouting off crazy rumors...things like SilkyShrew is saying...then I'm going to tell him that he's believing in something that is not true and not rational.

It was an irronic joke because he thinks my belief in God is irrational.

chill y'all.

Heh... anyway, no problem with constructive criticism

What crazy rumor am I sprouting off with? I try to be very clear and accurate in the things that I say.

Crazy rumors? Sounds like your projecting again, RM.

Seems to me that your 'rational stance' is actually born of the fact that mormons only criticize the bible because of their need to support the book of mormon. You hold that the book of mormon is perfect, right?

I'm thinking it has to do with the things that makes him think you where a mormon for only a week...

I try to stay out of the things I don't know about, but he doesn't seem to want to talk to me about the things I asked. I guess he's too busy defending his faith from those who know about it

I don't know, like I said, but are there variations of mormonism? I think something like that would be causing all this confusion, that and a no true scotsmen.

Given his area, I think it is more likely a no true scotsman fallacy. There are several sects of mormonism, but I was a mainstream mormon, and he's likely a mainstream mormon. Those who are not mainstream often identify themselves with qualifiers, like, "FLDS" or "RLDS." What has actually happened is, you don't necesarily get all the doctrines of the religion when you're a mormon kid. I've had many experiences that he hasn't had, I've taught lessons in classes he's not allowed to take, and I've participated in ceremonies he's not ready for yet. Furthermore, I've apparently studied the religion much more than he has.

So, his argument is basically, "no true scotsman" and then he's arguing against stuff because he just doesn't know about it. The references I've given thus far, though, are intentionally straight from the doctrine he follows and sources from within his own religion. That makes it a bit difficult, because I intend to keep with that for now due to some problems encountered with outside sources that report mormon practices. Some "anti-mormon" sites do misrepresent the religion, and mormons are often aware of that. Most likely rational mormon thinks I'm from one of those groups, even though I'm not. I've seen some of their stuff and I usually try to clarify where they are wrong when I see others use it.

so then what is it exactly that differentiates them from any of the other books? they're old, from the same time, place, and people? seems to me that makes them....well...kind of...the same.

I was kinda hoping that he would answer you - but since he didn't, I will. Mormons see the Bible as being flawed due to centuries of translations and such that it has gone through. This stance is supported by some vague reference in the bible (I don't remember where, so please forgive) about there being future books or revelations, or something like that. Part of their basic religion is based on the Bible being flawed:

These two statements are from a part of the mormon doctrine that are some of the basis for the entire mormon religion, the Articles of Faith. Note the qualifier in #8 of "as far as it is translated correctly," this is in recognition of the flaws of the Book of Mormon. These articles describe some of the basic principles that we are taught from infancy about the mormon religion (I had them memorized as a kid and could rattle them off on cue whenever needed, along with several other scriptures, we even had songs to help us learn and remember them). Mormons are taught that although the books in the Bible (they use the KJV version) were once perfect, that in time they were corrupted at the hands of man to the point that the "gospel" was no longer present on the Earth. This is what opens up the way for the Mormon religion - they did, afterall, need a reason for a new prophet with new books for them to adhere to, right?

So, due to the corrupt state of the world, God decided to disrupt the life of one 14 year old boy (according to what the Mormons are taught), Mr. Joseph Smith. This boy tries to find out which of the religions all around him could be true, and allegedly goes to a garden to pray to God about the truth of all those religions, trying to find out which is the "true" church. So, when he's in this garden, he first is overpowered by an evil being, which he fights off, then gets to meet God and Jesus - two heavenly beings who come to him and tell him all the religions are wrong and that he must join none of them.

As told in the Doctrine and Covenants, Joseph Smith History, Verses 11 to 20.

This story is a great lead-in to Joseph becoming a martyr (in a sense, he was a martyr before he was killed, at least in portrayal, it is apparent throughout the writings in which he is referred that he and his flock were persecuted).

Now, this is only part of the story, to get a more complete image of what the disregard for the Bible is about from mormons, you must also be aware of their answer to the problem of the flawed Bible. This answer involves a couple things - Firstly, the Book of Mormon is considered to contain events that took place during the latter portion of time of the events of the Bible. The Book of Mormon is a direct translation of the Golden Plates (according to the mormons), assisted by the Holy Spirit (The Holy Ghost, and third member of the Godhead, who according to them is a spirit, unlike God and Jesus who have both had bodies) through a tool called the Urim and Thummim. Thus, the Book of Mormon is perfect in their doctrine, where the Bible is not (though the Bible is considered an assistant to the words of God that you find in the Book of Mormon and it is taught that they are inter-dependant). Another Book that has been translated by Joseph Smith is the Pearl of Great Price, in which you may find the Book of Abraham which was taken from some Egyptian Papyri that Joseph Smith obtained. These papyri were later found to actually be the Hor Book of Breathings, which turned out to have nothing at all to do with some dude named Abraham. Secondly, the Mormons believe that revelation from God continues to happen, through their living prophet (the prophet is said to serve in the First Presidency and the current prophet is Gordon B. Hinkley).

Having a living prophet is a great help to the mormons in that they have a default - they rely on the prophet for an up-to-date Godline:

This allows the prophet to more easily make modifications where they may be needed in church doctrine so that things can run smoothly within their social context. That being the case, what the prophet says is true today, though it may conflict with past doctrine, is the most true aspect of the gospel that the mormons follow. Knowing that there are things that God "will yet reveal" also allows mormons to answer a question easily with things like, "well, we don't know everything," and it reinforces the concept of it not being possible to know all the ways of God.

Thus, arguing about the Bible isn't going to make a mormon falter much because they recognize that the Bible is flawed as a basic part of their doctrine. Anyways, hope that answers your question. Really, though, if anyone else has questions or something, I'm not using this data in my brain for anything else at the moment - feel free to ask about things.

P. S. - I'm referencing all mormon materials. There are two reasons for this - 1) if our mormon friend comes back, he can look to his own references for varification of all that I say and 2) there really are anti-mormon things out there that have inaccuracies and this helps make it so that I don't have to weed through stuff and say, "well this isn't exactly right and this is." That would be confusing for people. Hence, you get references straight from the religion's mouth.

ha ha, that almost answered too much
to quote an old episode of The Tick cartoon show and apply it to Mormon doctrine: "Swedish? Hmmm, sounds more.....made up."